Advice for Two Month Mass Phase

Oregand · March 2, 2011, 9:56pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You shouldn’t even need to lift weights to look like this. I see guys bigger than this who just play basketball all day.[/quote]

I like this post quite a bit.

Though I’ll admit I made the same mistake for a while(though I fell into the “not wanting to lose my 4 pack trap”) and sat at 149lbs soaking wet.

Eventually it occured to me that RIPPED ABZ didn’t cut it if I was small and weak. So now I lift till I almost die, eat till I’m full and sleep till I’m ready to do it all again. I figure give me about 4 or 5 years and I’ll have made a good dent in getting the body I want.

My point though is, everyone is a little different. Some guys don’t want to be the next oak(I don’t get it either) but hey that’s up to them. It’s a personal thing all round and that’s a problem because once someone asks for advice everyone gives their personal opinion.

I don’t know, people will aspire to what ever the fuck they want to be. All I know is that wanting a yoke like Jim W isn’t a bad place to start:)

iamthesamurai · March 2, 2011, 10:08pm

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Wow…

Pedestrian goals are pedestrian. Your idea of “a lot of muscle for his weight” is why no one is taking you as a “serious” trainee.

Also teh whole “cut down to 10% before you worry about gaining” is a clusterfuck of stupid advice for you.

You don’t have any fucking muscle to cut down to. You need to build some in order to get to 10% without looking like a starvation victim.[/quote]

Seeing as that I was once in the 30% body fat range with ridiculously high blood pressure, I don’t think that wanting to continue to improve my health is a “pedestrian” goal. Many on here seem to think that because I’m not trying to get “hooge” right now that I am not serious. Now, perhaps saying that GSP has a lot of muscle was not the best way to put things when you compare him to bodybuilders, but the man is a dominant UFC champion and a testament of athleticism. He has been referenced as such by multiple authors on this site. And its certainly not a bad short term goal seeing as where I’m currently at.

Question me all you want, but I’m serious about improving myself physically and mentally. Hence why I’m here seeking knowledge from those who have been there.

From your last sentence, I would take it that your advice would be to focus on gaining muscle mass. Is that fair to say? Any other (constructive) advice?

iamthesamurai · March 2, 2011, 10:48pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

As far as the goal of looking like Georges St. Pierre, I think you are wasting your time. Your goals are your own, but when you pick a goal of looking very average, it has been seen over and over that you are LESS likely to even reach that goal.

Anyone serious should be bigger than that in less than a year of serious weight lifting. By jumping into this half interested with goals this minimal, I seriously doubt you will ever get to that point.[/quote]

Professor,

I understand that you are one of the best on this site, so I’m certainly interested in what you have to say.

I understand what you are saying about “average,” but given where I’m currently at, would that not be a good goal to have in say six months time? The point isn’t for that to be the end of my journey. I’m trying to find out if gaining his amount of muscle while losing the rest of my gut is something that can be done in this time frame and what are good strategies for achieving this.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You seem only willing to listen to other clueless people who will tell you what you want to hear.
[/quote]

I’m willing to listen to anyone with actual advice. And how am I going for “what I want to hear?” I’ve already agreed with those that said what I originally outlined is flawed. Sounds to me like I’m listening to those who disagree with me too.

If I come off as defensive, its because I don’t think that people essentially saying “you’re an idiot and you will never accomplish anything” is helpful. That’s not advice. How about “What you’re trying to do will not work. Here’s what I suggest instead.”? I don’t think anyone can argue that advice like that would be much more helpful in terms of educating me.

Again, I understand you are one of the best here. I am a willing student. What is your advice? What has your experience taught you?

countingbeans · March 2, 2011, 10:57pm

[quote]iamthesamurai wrote:
Seeing as that I was once in the 30% body fat range with ridiculously high blood pressure, I don’t think that wanting to continue to improve my health is a “pedestrian” goal. [/quote]

Seeing as that isn’t, for one second, what you implied in your post, how would I know that?

Good job on the fat loss. But honestly, you are back pedaling at this point. Which ultimately is fine, and I don’t really care.

Your goals are your goals, just don’t expect people to put in extraordinary effort to help you if you aren’t looking to put extra effort or have a goal beyond “I still have to tell people I lift weights when I wear a shirt.”

He barely has “a lot of muscle” when you compare him to the general public. You put a tee shirt on him and you don’t know he lifts.

Shit, he is the new “brad Pitt in fight club”

Your perspective determines how we evaluate you, your perspective screams "I don’t want to try TOO HARD, just sorta hard.

okay, that doesn’t magically add 30lbs of lean mass to his frame.

The guy is a good fighter. End of story. He isn’t some amazing physical specimen of muscle gain.

I hope your arms hit 16" in a year, otherwise you need to switch up what you are doing.

Yes, for fuck’s sake yes.

You are a newb, as long as you don’t eat like a retard you should shed some fat while gaining strength and some size. God newb gains are awesome. Don’t piss them away.

Focus on getting strong as hell on ALL lifts, the big boy compounds AND the pretty boy curls and raises. Eat double your body-weight in grams of protein a day, and constantly be pushing yourself out of your comfort-zone trying to make progress.

Progress is ALL THAT MATTERS. Not where you were yesterday, not that you were fatter than everyone, not that you were smaller than everyone, not how far you’ve had to go, just where you are.

Don’t make excuses, because no one, and I mean NO ONE, can take this away from you but yourself. And the only way you can take it away from yourself is to make an excuse.

iamthesamurai · March 2, 2011, 11:22pm

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Yes, for fuck’s sake yes.

You are a newb, as long as you don’t eat like a retard you should shed some fat while gaining strength and some size. God newb gains are awesome. Don’t piss them away.

Focus on getting strong as hell on ALL lifts, the big boy compounds AND the pretty boy curls and raises. Eat double your body-weight in grams of protein a day, and constantly be pushing yourself out of your comfort-zone trying to make progress.

Progress is ALL THAT MATTERS. Not where you were yesterday, not that you were fatter than everyone, not that you were smaller than everyone, not how far you’ve had to go, just where you are.

Don’t make excuses, because no one, and I mean NO ONE, can take this away from you but yourself. And the only way you can take it away from yourself is to make an excuse. [/quote]

Cool, man. And I dig your perspective here. You’re right.

So, clean slate here. No need for arguments or excuses. I’m a noob to the muscle gains. I want to make the most of the opportunity in front of me. It sounds like any solid lifting program combined with a clean diet of eating when I’m hungry and plenty of rest will allow me to gain muscle, lose fat, and improve my health.

I plan to post some logs. I hope some of you will chime in from time-to-time to help me evaluate my progress; successes, shortcomings, everything.

Bunny_Bench · March 3, 2011, 12:32am

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You shouldn’t even need to lift weights to look like this. I see guys bigger than this who just play basketball all day.[/quote]

hey hey hey It’s called fat cell hyperplasia. muscle cell hyperplasia is iffy if it is true or not but fat cell hyperplasia is true. If you get to 30% bf then cut you will have added more fat cells to your body permanently. Furthermore why does it matter if this guy takes a few months of to get to a really low body fat before beginning? He has all the time in the world so let him do it right.

cut to 10

and slowly add more weight until he reaches about 18 then cut back to 10 simple.

Why the hell would he eat want to become a huge fat ass when he can achieve the same results slowly.

Bunny_Bench · March 3, 2011, 12:31am

[quote]iamthesamurai wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

As far as the goal of looking like Georges St. Pierre, I think you are wasting your time. Your goals are your own, but when you pick a goal of looking very average, it has been seen over and over that you are LESS likely to even reach that goal.

Anyone serious should be bigger than that in less than a year of serious weight lifting. By jumping into this half interested with goals this minimal, I seriously doubt you will ever get to that point.[/quote]

Professor,

I understand that you are one of the best on this site, so I’m certainly interested in what you have to say.

I understand what you are saying about “average,” but given where I’m currently at, would that not be a good goal to have in say six months time? The point isn’t for that to be the end of my journey. I’m trying to find out if gaining his amount of muscle while losing the rest of my gut is something that can be done in this time frame and what are good strategies for achieving this.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

You seem only willing to listen to other clueless people who will tell you what you want to hear.
[/quote]

I’m willing to listen to anyone with actual advice. And how am I going for “what I want to hear?” I’ve already agreed with those that said what I originally outlined is flawed. Sounds to me like I’m listening to those who disagree with me too.

If I come off as defensive, its because I don’t think that people essentially saying “you’re an idiot and you will never accomplish anything” is helpful. That’s not advice. How about “What you’re trying to do will not work. Here’s what I suggest instead.”? I don’t think anyone can argue that advice like that would be much more helpful in terms of educating me.

Again, I understand you are one of the best here. I am a willing student. What is your advice? What has your experience taught you?[/quote]

Look at the title of this site “the intelligent and relentless pursuit of muscle” These people know how to build it im sure but there is a difference between doing it healthily and unhealthily. Iamthesamurai you know best above 30% is very unhealthy. The majority of these guys are obsessive and go to extreme lengths to look enormous. They guy you want to look like definitely lifts weights and i bet he never goes to 30%

iamthesamurai · March 3, 2011, 1:30am

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:

Look at the title of this site “the intelligent and relentless pursuit of muscle” These people know how to build it im sure but there is a difference between doing it healthily and unhealthily. Iamthesamurai you know best above 30% is very unhealthy. The majority of these guys are obsessive and go to extreme lengths to look enormous. They guy you want to look like definitely lifts weights and i bet he never goes to 30%[/quote]

Thanks, Bunny, for stating your thoughts in a constructive manner. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and that is fine. I agree with some here and disagree with others.

As I mentioned in my last post, I think I have a solid, reasonable plan for achieving results. I will learn as I go and keep improving. I certainly don’t want to get in the 30% range again and I will not let things get so out of control that that happens.

As for GSP, he does lift weights among other things, and I’m sure he never gets in the 30% range. That is my goal for the time being. Once I hit that, I will evaluate from there.

countingbeans · March 3, 2011, 2:35am

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You shouldn’t even need to lift weights to look like this. I see guys bigger than this who just play basketball all day.[/quote]

hey hey hey It’s called fat cell hyperplasia. muscle cell hyperplasia is iffy if it is true or not but fat cell hyperplasia is true. If you get to 30% bf then cut you will have added more fat cells to your body permanently. Furthermore why does it matter if this guy takes a few months of to get to a really low body fat before beginning? He has all the time in the world so let him do it right.

cut to 10

and slowly add more weight until he reaches about 18 then cut back to 10 simple.

Why the hell would he eat want to become a huge fat ass when he can achieve the same results slowly. [/quote]

You are an 18 year old idiot that has spent more time reading articles than making progress.

You need to stop feeding other beginners bullshit.

You are a beginner yourself, and leading him the the WRONG direction.

He can’t fucking cut to 10% without and muscle for fuck’s sake.

Bunny_Bench · March 3, 2011, 4:53am

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You shouldn’t even need to lift weights to look like this. I see guys bigger than this who just play basketball all day.[/quote]

hey hey hey It’s called fat cell hyperplasia. muscle cell hyperplasia is iffy if it is true or not but fat cell hyperplasia is true. If you get to 30% bf then cut you will have added more fat cells to your body permanently. Furthermore why does it matter if this guy takes a few months of to get to a really low body fat before beginning? He has all the time in the world so let him do it right.

cut to 10

and slowly add more weight until he reaches about 18 then cut back to 10 simple.

Why the hell would he eat want to become a huge fat ass when he can achieve the same results slowly. [/quote]

You are an 18 year old idiot that has spent more time reading articles than making progress.

You need to stop feeding other beginners bullshit.

You are a beginner yourself, and leading him the the WRONG direction.

He can’t fucking cut to 10% without and muscle for fuck’s sake.[/quote]

How do you know that? How do you know how much muscle this guy has or how his body works. You haven’t seen anyone who wasn’t jacked under 10%? It is absolutely possible.

I have seen 10 year old with under 10% body fat and your telling me fully grown man can’t do it? If he can’t then he should just screw training because he doesn’t have the determination or the work ethic.

gregron · March 3, 2011, 6:46am

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:
How do you know that? How do you know how much muscle this guy has
[/quote]

Because the OP said he is 5’11" 185 lbs at 19% bodyfat. That means his LBM is only 150lbs. Thats how he knows how much muscle this guy has.

Bunny_Bench · March 3, 2011, 9:39am

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:
How do you know that? How do you know how much muscle this guy has
[/quote]

Because the OP said he is 5’11" 185 lbs at 19% bodyfat. That means his LBM is only 150lbs. Thats how he knows how much muscle this guy has.[/quote]

…lol…wrecked…thanks.
(Quite obvious I didn’t read his whole post)

anyway 185lbs with 150lbs of lean mass It is extremely attainable to get to 10%

The3Commandments · March 3, 2011, 10:24am

To the OP: I don’t want to put words in their mouths, but I think the reason folks like Prof X get frustrated with posts like yours has as much to do with the fact that you don’t come across as having delved into the wealth of information present on this website as it does the potential incoherence or pedestrian arch of your goals. I don’t really blame them, as they have answered these sorts of questions many, many times.

In other words, if you really cared about learning a lot about achieving your goals, you would never have made this thread in the first place. Most of your questions would have been answered by use of the search function.

countingbeans · March 3, 2011, 12:11pm

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Bunny Bench wrote:
How do you know that? How do you know how much muscle this guy has
[/quote]

Because the OP said he is 5’11" 185 lbs at 19% bodyfat. That means his LBM is only 150lbs. Thats how he knows how much muscle this guy has.[/quote]

…lol…wrecked…thanks.
(Quite obvious I didn’t read his whole post)

anyway 185lbs with 150lbs of lean mass It is extremely attainable to get to 10%[/quote]

Again, you are feeding this guy bullshit, and obviously a troll.

There is no fucking way on earth he should be listening to you.

But if he chooses to, that is his own stupidity. I’m done arguing with you. You can’t seriously be this retar[i]t[/i]ed.

countingbeans · March 3, 2011, 12:25pm

OP, here is the situation.

At your stats if you pursue 10% bf, you will be about 140lbs when you are done if you are lucky, and still look skinny fat. You will have pissed away 6 months of your newb gains and given yourself an eating disorder.

Now, if you spend the next 6-24 months eating a REASONABLE surplus, of good healthy whole foods & whey powder, and consistently getting stronger in every lift. You will put on XXlbs of lean mass. Once you have muscle, getting to 10% is not only easier (relatively) but you will actually LOOK like you want to look when you get there.

But, I know you’re going to listen to the Bunny troll anyway and I’m wasting my time.

Oregand · March 3, 2011, 12:58pm

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
OP, here is the situation.

At your stats if you pursue 10% bf, you will be about 140lbs when you are done if you are lucky, and still look skinny fat. You will have pissed away 6 months of your newb gains and given yourself an eating disorder.

Now, if you spend the next 6-24 months eating a REASONABLE surplus, of good healthy whole foods & whey powder, and consistently getting stronger in every lift. You will put on XXlbs of lean mass. Once you have muscle, getting to 10% is not only easier (relatively) but you will actually LOOK like you want to look when you get there.

But, I know you’re going to listen to the Bunny troll anyway and I’m wasting my time.[/quote]

OP, I realise your goal isnt to get “jacked” like Yates, tate or Jim W but listen to the guy im quoting.

Strength is the greatest equilliser in any sport and being strong will be help you in a all round fashion.

YUour number one goal should be strenght while eating to support it, do not and I repeat DO NOT get dragged into the clusterfuck that is bulking/cutting with no mucle to begin with.

I know everyone wants “RIPPED ABZ” but if you do go ahead and cut, youll end up just like I was. Small, weak and still with a roll of fat under my 4 pack(which looks so much worse than just having a gut).

Eat, Lift like a fucking mad man and recover until you see gains in strength. Foucs on that formula for the 6 months you have and I fucking promise youll only want to keep it up as youll see what a difference it has made to your body.

Trying to shred a body with no muscle leaves nothing, sure youll get down to 10% bf but wtf do you expect to find under there? Cause I can tell you its not the muscle your after.

Cliff notes:

Eat, Lift hard, rest. Repeat for at least 6 months(Opitmully 10 or 20 years).

Also, pay no attention to anyone telling you too “cutttt it up, then bulk”. They have no concept of how this process works. As a beginner its a hard pill to swallow, trust me I know. I have days when I want to cut down becuase I hate not having abs(seriously) but then I remind myself that getting bigger and stronger is what you WANT AND NEED TO DO.

Take it from another beginner OP, this is the way you want to go.

iamthesamurai · March 3, 2011, 3:41pm

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
To the OP: I don’t want to put words in their mouths, but I think the reason folks like Prof X get frustrated with posts like yours has as much to do with the fact that you don’t come across as having delved into the wealth of information present on this website as it does the potential incoherence or pedestrian arch of your goals. I don’t really blame them, as they have answered these sorts of questions many, many times.

In other words, if you really cared about learning a lot about achieving your goals, you would never have made this thread in the first place. Most of your questions would have been answered by use of the search function.[/quote]

This makes sense, and looking at it in that context makes it understandable that I would be perceived this way.

To all,
I mean no disrespect. There is a wealth of information on this site and I have read much of it. My confusion (and ultimate reason for asking my original question) is because there is also a lot of conflicting information and varying opinions. For example, I can read the latest article on building massive shoulders, but as a beginner, how do I know if that program is appropriate for me or more targeted towards the advanced? I recall one of the most recent articles on this site regarding that called for avoiding pressing movements for the shoulders. Yet Coach Thibs recommends them.

Ultimately, I want to get stronger, I want to get bigger, and I want to get healthier. I want to do this the best way possible and avoid mistakes as much as I can. I just want to see if there is a consensus regarding what programs, what foods, and what coaches a beginner should be looking to.

The idea that I am getting is that I need eat more (within reason) to grow while minimizing fat gain (and perhaps even losing some). I’m getting the idea here that if I do this right, I will gain muscle and I won’t have to worry about hitting 30% body fat again. And it would be nice to get lean and have the muscle to still look good.

iamthesamurai · March 3, 2011, 3:42pm

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Now, if you spend the next 6-24 months eating a REASONABLE surplus, of good healthy whole foods & whey powder, and consistently getting stronger in every lift. You will put on XXlbs of lean mass. Once you have muscle, getting to 10% is not only easier (relatively) but you will actually LOOK like you want to look when you get there.
[/quote]

I will be listening to this.

iamthesamurai · March 3, 2011, 3:50pm

[quote]Oregand wrote: