Hello!
I’m not sure if this is the right category, but I was wondering if anyone could possibly share some knowledge, or point me to videos or articles explaining how you can add weak points to general template routines.
Basically, I’ve been dealing with a shoulder injury for over a year now (been getting and am getting professional help), and I’ve been suggested to throw in more pulling when I can workout again.
I want to start off with either a 3 day full body routine or 4 day upper/lower.
There’s a ton of templates for these things, but I haven’t been able to find much information on adding accessories for your weakpoints, without fucking it up lol
If I’m not making sense here, let me know and I’ll try my best to explain it better.
But does anyone have any good sources where I can read up or channels to watch?
Goal for now is to put on size until I feel confident enough to lift heavy and focus on strength again.
Dave Tate has a whole series on supplemental/accessory ex posted in articles on here. It’s very detailed and explains what the lift targets and how it’s performed even rep ranges etc. it’s easy to find in the search tool.
Well depends on what template you’re using and adding to I suppose. I’ve used the M2 method on the past for instance and will be running it again soon, it rotates movements out every 4 weeks as it’s a combo of conjugate system with linear progression.
If you’re running a linear program nothing fancy would kind be like this
Main lift variation
Week point supplemental lift (board press, incline bench, front squat, deficit deadlift etc)
To add “more pulling” to a generic plan you could;
Front Load- do 3 x10( arbitrary number, just an example) in a row or pulldown or shrug before the rest of your regularly scheduled workout. Gradually add a little work before, like a specific warm up.
Pull after Push. Between sets of pressing exercises you do sets of face pulls or band pull aparts or low rep sets on chinups. Non killer stuff that adds to the workload with killing your pressing. You do this in addition to your regular schedule.
Extra Workout. Do some more back stuff on a separate day, besides your regular stuff.
If your primary goal right now is size and addressing weakness, you could use a more specific body part style split. Instead of cramming back stuff in as an afterthought you could have a whole session (or even 2) based on working your back. Like getting more volume, and hitting more directions and angles and developing better MMC to really focus on and improve the lagging area.
For shoulder health?
Hear your professional first but a shitload of band pull aparts and face pulls usually do help. You can simply pick any program you want and do them in the warmup and during rest times between regular sets, every training day and on non training days too. They shouldn’t impact much if at all on your recovery, even if you’re not experienced in weight training, but adding them gradually is usually a good idea, just for safety.
Also, shoulder dislocators at the end of the workout and on non training days.
Direct rear delt work doesn’t hurt either, rear raises/flys or such, you could simply add it to an existing program or replace one exercise with that.
As for pulling in general, every decent program should already include rows, chins, pulldowns and their variations. Just be careful since these exercises can (and will) improve shoulder stability if done right, but can wreak havoc on your shoulders if done wrong.
As a general cue, I try to mind the scapulae, meaning that if the scapulae are moving properly, the rest goes for itself.
In vertical pulls (chins, pulldowns) you usually start with elevated scapulae and want to begin the movement by depressing them (taking your shoulders away from your ears), if you won’t, you’ll end up by “shrugging” the weight or your body and your humerus won’t have space to move other than rolling forward against the rotator cuff.
In horizontal pulls (like rows) you usually start with protracted scapulae and want to begin the movement by retracting them, if you won’t… same as above, your humerus will push against the rotator cuff.
That’s what I’ve been thinking, doing a separate day for added volume for the back. My back and legs grew a lot faster than my chest and shoulders, so after a couple of years, I focused more on the pushing and that’s where it went downhill lol
Yeah I’m going to ask them for tips too, but some general knowledge in the area doesn’t hurt either, interesting stuff imo.
That’s a good idea, adding face pulls during the rest times. What about shoulder dislocators, I haven’t heard that before, could you elaborate?
Something I’ve done on off days when I could still workout, is work on scapula movement, I’d be on the pull-up bar, and just activate the scapula, and same for horizontal rowing too, it helped me implement it when I was doing actual pull ups and rows, so I’ll keep doing that (unless physiotherapist or orthopedics say otherwise)
Look on youtube for face pulls, best thing is to do them with a neutral grip, low weight, high reps, and the cable set at an height somewhere between your pecs and your chin.
Start with protracted scapulae, and pull like if you had to hit a double bicep pose, with the rope arriving on the top of your forehead.
That’s pretty much the best way to really work the rotator cuff muscles and improve shoulder stability, I think OmarIsuf has a specific video for them.
Simply pick a stick or a broomstick, hold it with a wide grip (widest you can at first), keeping your arms straight and elbows locked. Start with the stick at your hips and move it overhead and then behind your back, all the way down towards your butt, then reverse the movement and take it back to your hips. That’s one rep (don’t make contact with your hips or lower back to bounce the stick up, control the movement, especially in the portion behind your back).
Check google/youtube to see the movement, my english is not top game recently.
It’s a ridicolously simple but effective movement for mobility and to strengthen the rotator cuff, do 10-15 reps when warming up and another 40-50 reps at the end of the workout, keep it up on non training days too, shoot to do at least 50 reps every day - there will be days where probably you’ll forget to do it or will be too busy but hitting a solid 4-5 days a week with about 50 dislocators a day will pay big dividends over time for your shoulder health.
Split the reps how you see fit, start with sets of 5-10 if you need to, just focus on proper technique at first. Some people suggest to progressively use a closer grip to make the exercise harder and improve mobility further, but I found that doing more reps has worked better for me, moving from sets of 10 reps to sets of 15-25 reps at a time.
When I started working out I had issues benching 65 pounds due to cranky shoulders and had to use 10lbs dumbbells for overhead presses, now I’m training the behind the neck press (and behind the neck push press) as main pressing exercises, can overhead squat with a snatch grip and I’m getting there to overhead squat with a clean grip.
But stick to the basis for a good while and progress very slowly, like for anything else.
And hear your professional(s) on these too, i.e. a friend of mine can’t do them due to some fucked up elbow issue he has. I guess your physio and ortho have a stick around that you can use while they check you.
M2 method is ebook by Brian shwab. I respect Brian to much to give his product out for free except to say what he’s put on internet for free. 3 week waves with increasing ROM and 4 week rotation with 4 different accessory movements. It’s worth purchasing and it comes with 3 programs that are interchangeable. The program is created to prevent injury while training. There’s no fluff in it it’s what you need to do to get strong and stay healthy.
That’s what I did when I began working out too, followed a bodypart split with two back days a week. Worked great for the back, did something for shoulder health too, but only to a certain degree.
In hindsight, I’m fairly sure that a crapload of frequent prehab exercises like the ones mentioned above trumps more heavy work for lats, traps, lower back and such.
Also, what I found out for me, is that strengthening the back muscles, shoulder stabilizers and scapulae was only half of the equation.
The other half is strengthening the shoulder itself, take all the time you need with pink dumbbells and light pressing work, but once you’re back on track, make your shoulders stronger. Start using progressively heavier dumbbells, then a progressively heavier barbell, or any other implement that allows you to get stronger at pressing.
I know that at one point my back/stabilizers were strong enough, my shoulder mobility had improved a lot, but the shoulders were still cranky and unreliable - and I was still using light dumbbells for overhead pressing and doing no direct work for front and side delts. Moving to the barbell press and getting stronger at it, while also getting back at the bench, solved the issue.
Never drop the prehab work, get stronger at pressing, has been the ideal recipe for me.
And talking about pushing exercises - make shoulder health a priority in exercise selection.
If the flat bench bugs your shoulders, try moving to a narrower grip to spare the shoulder joint. If dumbbell flat or incline bench bugs your shoulders, try on a decline bench. If dips bug your shoulders, drop them and do pushups. If any part of pressing overhead bugs your shoulders, find a way around it - do partials, push press, use a swiss bar, stick to dumbbells or kettlebells. If standing lateral raises bug your shoulders, do them laying on an incline bench, or do partial reps sticking to the ROM portion that doesn’t bug your shoulders.
And so on and on, you get the idea.
Extra day is good. You can focus without having to worry about rushing on to the other body parts.
Here’s a useful move to help feel your lats I saw eyedentist post awhile back. Try it before a few sets.
Also try some 1 arm stuff. Single Arm Rows and pull downs and shrugs too. Don’t rush, really feel the muscles work. If one side feels “off” or “different” making it feel right is like therapy plus lifting.
Ooooh I’ve done the shoulder dislocators before but with a band, I’ll run it by the physiotherapist on Monday when our next meeting is, and I’ll see if she recommends that I do them everyday also , thanks for the suggestion!
I did PPL 6 days on and 1 day off, and I did some more pressing than pulling, and the new bench I got when I moved forced me to keep a closer grip than I like, so I think the awkward position, plus not enough pulling overloaded my shoulder. Still waiting to hear back from the ortho because the other clinic I was sent to literally just said ‘keep doing external rotations everyday’ left the room and never came back lol I travelled all day just for him to tell me that too
But I agree, I’m going to implement a LOT more prehab work into my routine from now on and I’ll be focusing a lot more on shoulder health when I pick my exercises.
I never want to go through this again with any body part, I’ve been out for WAY too long now.
Flat bench and benching with a bar is a no go for me right now, I have periods where I can do light exercises, and as far as pressing movements go, arnold press seem to help out a lot and also incline dumbbell presses, but the arnold presses feel really good, sometimes i’ll have a bit of a pinch before I start warming up and whatnot, and after those, I feel pretty good after.
I think, if I’ll ever be able to bench with a bar again, I’ll start with floor presses.
As far as shoulder health goes with exercise selection, what are some key points to keep in mind? I’ve been recommended at least 2x pulling compared to pushing, but what about any horizontal/vertical ratios?
This question popped up a few times here around and the strongest/more experienced guys all chimed in… with fairly different answers. You go from people who almost exclusively do one of the two (horizontal or pulling), to people who have completely different ratios (2:1 for horizontal, or vice versa).
I wouldn’t lose sleep on it, as long as you’re doing the frequent prehab work and the usual big money pulls (rows, chins, pulldowns, deads, or their variations) guess you’ll be fine, chasing ratios sounds like over analyzing to me, but if anything your physio might know more
Fair enough, it’s like when people ask how much protein one should eat, everyone says different numbers lol
But yeah I’m going to ask on Monday, fingers crossed either she knows or knows someone I can talk to about it.
