Is it a ‘done’ thing when cutting to just add some steady-state or otherwise cardio (15 mins or so) onto the end of your normal weights split workouts? I mean as opposed to dedicating days to cardio.
i.e.
Day 1- ‘Push’ weights + 15 mins cardio
Day 2- ‘Legs’ weights + 15 mins cardio
Day 3- ‘Pull’ weights + 15 mins cardio
Day 4- Rest day
And repeat…
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio. First, WHY are you doing cardio? 15min isn’t very much and if you are dieting down, you need more than that. If you are doing it as a warm up, then it should be first in the workout. If for dieting then do it afterwards.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.
I’ve been dieting for a few months now with just weights, reduction in calories and losing 1 lb/wk.
My only form of cardio (none in the past 6 weeks) has been volleyball 1-2 x wk
To answer your question, add cardio as needed. To me I look at cardio to enhance caloric burn slightly and mainly to improve heart and lung function
There is nothing set in stone in bodybuilding.
You do whatever works for you.
WHile a lot of people do seem to tack on some steady state work post weight sessions, 15 minutes really isn’t much of anything. I achieved my best results when I kept my cardio work (intervals) on days when I wasn’t weight training (and concurrently kept my cals and carbs a bit lower than usual as well). If you’re just hoping to burn an extra 50 cals or whatever figure the treadmill/bike/etc tells you, fine, it certainly won’t hurt, but it’s definitely not the best route in my opnion.
S
Call me crazy, but I think doing cardio immediately after weights is one of the biggest mistakes people make when trying to lose fat. I see that as being very muscle wasting.
If you are going to do cardio, have your PWO meal, then do your cardio later at night.
I have done and still sometimes do cardio post weights, it has been more effective for me to do interval stuff post weights but the energy to do this after a tough session is not always present.
I have done push/pull/legs and doubt I’d do it again, for example my pushing was flat/incline/military and my military pressing was terrible.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.[/quote]
Hmm, this is what I’ve been doing for the past few months and I’ve been blowing up. Chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday/Thursday, Legs Tuesday/Friday, Back/Bis Wednesday/Saturday. It allows me to workout 6 days a week, hitting everything twice and never overlap body parts on any consecutive days, allowing me to recover better. My poundages on all exercises are steadily increasing even with the fatigue induced by the previous bodyparts worked. Because of that overlap, I don’t have to do as many sets/as much weight on subsequent exercises to get the desired training effect, especially considering everything will be hit again in 72 hours. If bodybuilding is the goal, this seems like a suitable method but of course if pushing maximal weight on every exercise is the goal then it would make sense to train differently.
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.
Hmm, this is what I’ve been doing for the past few months and I’ve been blowing up. Chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday/Thursday, Legs Tuesday/Friday, Back/Bis Wednesday/Saturday. It allows me to workout 6 days a week, hitting everything twice and never overlap body parts on any consecutive days, allowing me to recover better. My poundages on all exercises are steadily increasing even with the fatigue induced by the previous bodyparts worked. Because of that overlap, I don’t have to do as many sets/as much weight on subsequent exercises to get the desired training effect, especially considering everything will be hit again in 72 hours. If bodybuilding is the goal, this seems like a suitable method but of course if pushing maximal weight on every exercise is the goal then it would make sense to train differently.
[/quote]
I used to do it as a beginner too with great results (minus the random 15 mins of cardio), but as Prof X said once the weights get up there it just becomes too much. After benching heavy, there’s no way I can hit any sort of overhead pressing with the same kind of intensity (shares triceps and front delts). And even if your intensity for an some sort of vertical press was okay, there would still practically be nothing left for triceps…
Get CT’s Jacked program for the minimal cost that it is…
It works and explains everything you need to know in much like an “Idiot’s guide to cutting” kinda style… It’s really a no brainer…
I started it in the spring, dropped 25-30lbs for summer and saw some monster strength gains throughout the program, as opposed to my experiences at cutting prior where my strength would drop off as the weight dropped off…
But 15mins of cardio at the end of your workouts is going to do nothing for you IMHO…
Yes, you can do cardio after your weights workout.
However I would do it at least a few hours later. After you’ve had a chance to have your PWM.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Call me crazy, but I think doing cardio immediately after weights is one of the biggest mistakes people make when trying to lose fat. I see that as being very muscle wasting.
[/quote]
I have always had the same thinking.
[quote]challer1 wrote:
I used to do it as a beginner too with great results (minus the random 15 mins of cardio), but as Prof X said once the weights get up there it just becomes too much. After benching heavy, there’s no way I can hit any sort of overhead pressing with the same kind of intensity (shares triceps and front delts). And even if your intensity for an some sort of vertical press was okay, there would still practically be nothing left for triceps…[/quote]
I’m not a beginner. I understand that after benching heavy you’re not going to use your normal weights for overhead pressing (which I think is what you meant by “same kind of intensity?”). Now considering the fact that your front delts and tri’s have already been stimulated by the bench press, in my eyes, that is just less work you’re going to have to do to adequately stimulate your delts and triceps for growth. I would figure that even though you aren’t using your maximal weights on your delt and tri exercises after doing chest, if your delt and tri exercise poundages are continuing to increase and you’re growing, this must be a viable way to train.
Now you’ve both mentioned that once you reach a certain level of strength, this could be too much. To that I would say it depends on exactly how the workout is designed. I think the key is intelligently managing volume based on your own levels of strength/recovery capacity. Look at doggcrapp. One workout is Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Back. Now if it wasn’t known that that was a doggcrapp workout, at first glance you would say the same thing, that that is way too much to do in one workout, yet it clearly works for people, even those very strong individuals lifting very heavy weights (in fact isn’t that who doggcrapp is more geared towards?). Why does it work? Because of what I mentioned above, intelligent management of volume based on strenght and recovery capacity.
[quote]challer1 wrote:
kingbeef323 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.
Hmm, this is what I’ve been doing for the past few months and I’ve been blowing up. Chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday/Thursday, Legs Tuesday/Friday, Back/Bis Wednesday/Saturday. It allows me to workout 6 days a week, hitting everything twice and never overlap body parts on any consecutive days, allowing me to recover better. My poundages on all exercises are steadily increasing even with the fatigue induced by the previous bodyparts worked. Because of that overlap, I don’t have to do as many sets/as much weight on subsequent exercises to get the desired training effect, especially considering everything will be hit again in 72 hours. If bodybuilding is the goal, this seems like a suitable method but of course if pushing maximal weight on every exercise is the goal then it would make sense to train differently.
I used to do it as a beginner too with great results (minus the random 15 mins of cardio), but as Prof X said once the weights get up there it just becomes too much. After benching heavy, there’s no way I can hit any sort of overhead pressing with the same kind of intensity (shares triceps and front delts). And even if your intensity for an some sort of vertical press was okay, there would still practically be nothing left for triceps…[/quote]
Exactly. Kingbeef has made decent progress, but I seriously doubt that once he starts moving those really big dumbbells with the dust on them, that he will keep doing shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout.
For those who still don’t get it, that means these push pull splits make little sense for those who are strong enough to get significant attention from others watching when they train.
I am also not sure why the distinction was made between bodybuilding and lifting very heavy weight. How do you guys think arms over 18" and chests over 50" are built?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
challer1 wrote:
kingbeef323 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.
Hmm, this is what I’ve been doing for the past few months and I’ve been blowing up. Chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday/Thursday, Legs Tuesday/Friday, Back/Bis Wednesday/Saturday. It allows me to workout 6 days a week, hitting everything twice and never overlap body parts on any consecutive days, allowing me to recover better. My poundages on all exercises are steadily increasing even with the fatigue induced by the previous bodyparts worked. Because of that overlap, I don’t have to do as many sets/as much weight on subsequent exercises to get the desired training effect, especially considering everything will be hit again in 72 hours. If bodybuilding is the goal, this seems like a suitable method but of course if pushing maximal weight on every exercise is the goal then it would make sense to train differently.
I used to do it as a beginner too with great results (minus the random 15 mins of cardio), but as Prof X said once the weights get up there it just becomes too much. After benching heavy, there’s no way I can hit any sort of overhead pressing with the same kind of intensity (shares triceps and front delts). And even if your intensity for an some sort of vertical press was okay, there would still practically be nothing left for triceps…
Exactly. Kingbeef has made decent progress, but I seriously doubt that once he starts moving those really big dumbbells with the dust on them, that he will keep doing shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout.
For those who still don’t get it, that means these push pull splits make little sense for those who are strong enough to get significant attention from others watching when they train.
I am also not sure why the distinction was made between bodybuilding and lifting very heavy weight. How do you guys think arms over 18" and chests over 50" are built?
[/quote]
Hmm, I think either you misunderstood me or I probably had my wording off. The distinction I made was between using the maximum weights possible as in when a muscle group is fresh versus the heaviest weight you can handle on a movement after being slightly fatigued. When I said bodybuilding, I basically meant stimulating the muscles enough to grow.
Now your argument about lifting the very heavy weights… Did you read my last post? Do some very advanced bodybuilders who are “strong enough to get significant attention from others when they train” not train all of these muscles in the same session plus more using programs such as doggcrapp, and make progress?
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
challer1 wrote:
kingbeef323 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
There is no way in hell I would set up a program like that. I am referring to your “push/pull” set up, not cardio.
But again, you really do all pushing exercises…meaning shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout? How long have you been lifting and what are your goals?
That may be ok for a beginner, but I seriously have doubts that anyone pushing some real weight can do all of those muscle groups in one session.
Hmm, this is what I’ve been doing for the past few months and I’ve been blowing up. Chest/shoulders/triceps on Monday/Thursday, Legs Tuesday/Friday, Back/Bis Wednesday/Saturday. It allows me to workout 6 days a week, hitting everything twice and never overlap body parts on any consecutive days, allowing me to recover better. My poundages on all exercises are steadily increasing even with the fatigue induced by the previous bodyparts worked. Because of that overlap, I don’t have to do as many sets/as much weight on subsequent exercises to get the desired training effect, especially considering everything will be hit again in 72 hours. If bodybuilding is the goal, this seems like a suitable method but of course if pushing maximal weight on every exercise is the goal then it would make sense to train differently.
I used to do it as a beginner too with great results (minus the random 15 mins of cardio), but as Prof X said once the weights get up there it just becomes too much. After benching heavy, there’s no way I can hit any sort of overhead pressing with the same kind of intensity (shares triceps and front delts). And even if your intensity for an some sort of vertical press was okay, there would still practically be nothing left for triceps…
Exactly. Kingbeef has made decent progress, but I seriously doubt that once he starts moving those really big dumbbells with the dust on them, that he will keep doing shoulders, chest and triceps all in one workout.
For those who still don’t get it, that means these push pull splits make little sense for those who are strong enough to get significant attention from others watching when they train.
I am also not sure why the distinction was made between bodybuilding and lifting very heavy weight. How do you guys think arms over 18" and chests over 50" are built?
Hmm, I think either you misunderstood me or I probably had my wording off. The distinction I made was between using the maximum weights possible as in when a muscle group is fresh versus the heaviest weight you can handle on a movement after being slightly fatigued. When I said bodybuilding, I basically meant stimulating the muscles enough to grow.
Now your argument about lifting the very heavy weights… Did you read my last post? Do some very advanced bodybuilders who are “strong enough to get significant attention from others when they train” not train all of these muscles in the same session plus more using programs such as doggcrapp, and make progress?[/quote]
Many pros often split training in that they have morning and night sessions. They have done this for years and that should be kept in mind when thinking of “chest and triceps” on the same day when the person may be doing chest in the morning and triceps at night.
No, most pro bodybuilders aren’t doing every pushing exercise in one training session. Doggcrap may be an exception but short of the two well known pros using it (one of which may need to actually try training biceps directly), who else is doing all shoulder, triceps and chest work all in one day?
I mostly agree on the push/pull/legs point.
I think that if one is seriously limiting volume, then there is little wrong with push/pull (as per DC training - some of those guys are monsters).
However, even with the limited volume (one rest/pause set per muscle group) I have found that my performance drops off so much by the last bodypart that I have no option but to split things up further - my split is now:
Even with just a single rest/pause set per bodypart (3 minisets) it is simply useless for me to hit shoulders AFTER chest AND triceps.
As for cardio, I don’t see the point in it other than maintaining fitness levels. For fatloss diet by far outweighs any amount of cardio.
Still, everyone’s different I suppose, so if you need it, do it. During a separate session would be my recommendation though.
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
I mostly agree on the push/pull/legs point.
I think that if one is seriously limiting volume, then there is little wrong with push/pull (as per DC training - some of those guys are monsters).
However, even with the limited volume (one rest/pause set per muscle group) I have found that my performance drops off so much by the last bodypart that I have no option but to split things up further - my split is now:
Even with just a single rest/pause set per bodypart (3 minisets) it is simply useless for me to hit shoulders AFTER chest AND triceps.
As for cardio, I don’t see the point in it other than maintaining fitness levels. For fatloss diet by far outweighs any amount of cardio.
Still, everyone’s different I suppose, so if you need it, do it. During a separate session would be my recommendation though. [/quote]
I trained up to three body parts a training session when I first started. That ended when I truly started feeling my workouts suffer towards the end due to the increased weight used.
My training now is usually so draining that attempting to train anything else on shoulder day would be a waste of time. Between overhead presses, shrugs, lateral raises and some variant of front raises (or high incline press), I am fried.
ABA BAB routine split when you rest and then repeat? I would recommend this and maybe vertical/horizontal push pull split. Agreed with Stu Intervals 1-3 times a week on lower calorie days that you don’t do weight training.