About Islam

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]dyskee wrote:
makavali u first:

look shari’a is perfect because its made according to the quaran which cannot be wrong.

[/quote]But it’s not working. That was my whole point, if it’s perfect it would work. Despite the human element.[quote]

i have a question for u to be able to answer urs, how can u be ahindu and belive in god?

[/quote]First of all, Hinduism refer to several different branches. The term Hindu was a British thing, coined to group all the religions in the India/Sri Lanka area into one group. My branch of Hinduism believes in ONE God. The only reason you see many is because they are all symbolic representations of different aspects of the same God. We aren’t so arrogant as to think that with our limited brain functions we can understand the full spectrum of God.

God I hope people understood that. I barely do![quote]

as for the contradictions i still insist that shari’a is the best ruling system then u’ll find that i said that the ottman state was perfect ok i was wrong with this one because it still had some corruption.

[/quote]Showing yet again that the system is flawed. A truly perfect system would work perfectly in spite of people. Just like how true communism would be nice if it wasn’t for people.

If you must insist it’s the best, please provide proof. I could insist that my own personal way is the best. That doesn’t make it the best.

edit: Best. Best, best and best. Did I use that word enough?[quote]

will to power:

i wasn’t implying that saudi arabia is one of the best nations here but i was telling him who rules by the shar’ia.

[/quote]Are there any societies that function without countless abuses of human rights that use Shari’a exclusively?

62

gkhan, i think that the taliban movement is lead by misguided people who feel that inorder to spread “ISLAM” they should do it by force , killing and inducing threats , not to take the blame off them but also i think that taliban was financed by major westren states to be an excuse for those westren states to do their campaign against terrorism and consequently invade us and take our oil , but once again this is my point of view.

as for the wahabi’s i think they are over analyzing it we have a saying that says ’ ina alislam din al wasat"

which means that “islam is the religion of moderation”

also the prophet “pbuh” said about the wahabi’d and shi’a and all other sects " satanakasem ummaty men ba’dy bed’un wasabu’n ummah kolohom filnar ila man etaba’a keitab allah wa sunnaty"

which translates to " my ummah will be devided after my death to over seventy ummahs they are all in hell except those who followed the quran and my sunnah"

the sunnah are the teachings of the prophet “pbuh”
and the umma is us the muslims

63

[quote]dyskee wrote:
gkhan, i think that the taliban movement is lead by misguided people who feel that inorder to spread “ISLAM” they should do it by force , killing and inducing threats , not to take the blame off them but also i think that taliban was financed by major westren states to be an excuse for those westren states to do their campaign against terrorism and consequently invade us and take our oil , but once again this is my point of view.
[/quote]

I thought the Taliban were trained by the CIA to take care of Russia? Not as an excuse to invade.

64

chusin,
i do believe that each and everyone is free to do what he wants as long as he keeps it to himself and in a borderline, but i do believe in this because i also believe that everyone is going to be held and punished for their actions on judgement day.

allah “god” gave us human beings a brain over animals to be able to comprehend God’s commands towards each one of us and to figure out the purpose of our existence.

thus i think that u have to use that brain to determine wether u want to follow the path of god and god’s guidance"al hoda " or “aldallah” be mislead towards hell.

here are some quranic verses that i want u to read they are about those chose “aldala” over “alhoda”.
in the name of god , the merciful , the compassionate or “bism illah alrahman alrahim”

(As for the the unbelievers , alike it is to them, wether thou hast warned them or hast not warned them, they do not believe.
god has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and there eyes is covering. and there awaits them a mighty chastisement.and some men there are who say, we believe in god and the last day; but they are not believers. they would trick god and the believers, and only themselves they deceive, and they are not aware. in their hearts is a sickness, and god has increased their sickness, and their awaits them a painful chastisement for that they have cried lies.
when it is said to them ‘do not corruption in the land’, they say ‘we are only ones that put things right’, truly they are workers of corruption but they are not aware. when it is said to them , ‘believe as the people believe’, they say ‘shall we believe as fools believe?’, truly they are the foolish ones, but they do not know. when they meet those who believe they say , " we believe but when they go privily to their satans, they say, ‘we are with you; we were only mocking’. god shall mock them, and shall lead them on blindly wandering in their insolence. those are they that have bought error at the price of guidance, and their commerce has not profited them , and they are not right-guided. the likeness of them is as the likeness of a man who kindeled a fire, and when it lit all about him god took away their light, and left them in darkness unseeing, deaf,dumb, blind so they shall not return) (2:5-18)

65

[quote]Makavali wrote:

I thought the Taliban were trained by the CIA to take care of Russia? Not as an excuse to invade.[/quote]

well u can say that this was the first objective and when russia got out the cia wanted to make use out of them :smiley:

66

[quote]dyskee wrote:

well u can say that this was the first objective and when russia got out the cia wanted to make use out of them :D[/quote]

Are you nuts?! The CIA aren’t that smart!

But seriously, there has to be some information out there (objective info, too) that backs up that theory.

And you still haven’t answered my questions! I posted responses there for you - showing that IMHO Shari’a is still very much a human creation, and therefore flawed.

I also answered your question about Hindu’s and our belief on God…

[quote]dyskee wrote:
which means that “islam is the religion of moderation” [/quote]

I quite like the idea of moderation however. That seems like actual Islam shining through there.

67

[quote]dyskee wrote:

allah “god” gave us human beings a brain over animals to be able to comprehend God’s commands towards each one of us and to figure out the purpose of our existence.

thus i think that u have to use that brain to determine wether u want to follow the path of god and god’s guidance"al hoda " or “aldallah” be mislead towards hell.
[/quote]

We aren’t that far from the animals.

But I do agree we are supposed to figure out the purpose of our existence.

But what I don’t agree with is Islam (and other religions) actively forcing people to convert. I’m pretty sure that conversion is part of the Qur’an, can you verify this?

EDIT: Like this for example

Although I note that most moderate Muslims don’t believe in conversion.

68

Makaveli, you are correct in that the Qur’an compels followers to convert others.

Dyskee, having read the Qur’an, I take issue with your claims that Islam is “the religion of moderation” and that Islam does not condone war/violence. This latter objection is not to imply that the Qur’an encourages violence, but rather that the Qur’an certainly does, under certain circumstances, condone violence.

69

So much for Saudi Arabia and Shari’a

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy, and officially does not tolerate any other religion. Hindus are considered polytheists by Islamic law, which is used as a justification for greater discrimination in calculating accidental death or injury compensation. According to the country’s “Hanbali” interpretation of Shari’a, Hindus receive 1/16 of the amount a male Muslim receives.

I know I’m putting out a lot of Hindu vs. Islam stuff here, but looking at the persecution against Islam, it’s mostly a fear based reaction or Islam vs. Islam.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I’m not bashing you. I think the way you’ve worded some stuff makes you sound a little misguided, but you seem like an OK guy.

70

[quote]dyskee wrote:
Makavali wrote:

I thought the Taliban were trained by the CIA to take care of Russia? Not as an excuse to invade.

well u can say that this was the first objective and when russia got out the cia wanted to make use out of them :D[/quote]

I disagree also. I think the Taliban was created by the Pakistan spy agency to crush the civil war and violence in Afghanistan after the overthrow of the Communist Government by what would become the Northern Alliance.

Having the Taliban, trained in Madrassas in Pakistan, in control of Afghanistan, meant stability on Pakistan’s border.

71

[quote]ovalpline wrote:
Dyskee, having read the Qur’an, I take issue with your claims that Islam is “the religion of moderation” and that Islam does not condone war/violence. This latter objection is not to imply that the Qur’an encourages violence, but rather that the Qur’an certainly does, under certain circumstances, condone violence.[/quote]

And I take issues with your claim that Islam is not a “religion of moderation”. I believe it balances the spiritual and the carnal very well, and I don’t think you can make the case that it isn’t.

As for condoning violence under certain circumstances, I wouldn’t want it any other way. As long as it doesn’t condone gratuitous violence or gives one man/woman absolute authority over these matters (besides the prophet), I don’t see anything wrong.

72

[quote]lixy wrote:
And I take issues with your claim that Islam is not a “religion of moderation”. I believe it balances the spiritual and the carnal very well, and I don’t think you can make the case that it isn’t.[/quote]

Prove it. I know that’s a dumb response, but the violence shown so far does Muslims everywhere no favor. For crying out loud they wanted the death penalty over a teddy bear!

I believe he takes issues with the circumstances themselves, not the violence. Again, see teddy bear reference. What about the cartoon fiasco? Yes, they made fun of a religious icon (which I think was uncalled for), but that doesn’t justify the violence. Sue the cartoonist if you want, don’t kill him.

73

[quote]lixy wrote:
And I take issues with your claim that Islam is not a “religion of moderation”. I believe it balances the spiritual and the carnal very well, and I don’t think you can make the case that it isn’t. [/quote]

I can make it just as well as you can refute it because, as per your argument, it’s based entirely on personal opinion. But I would say complete abstention from alcohol and intolerance of women’s choice are pretty compelling evidence of a lack of moderation.

Well, that’s an interesting qualification and you know it. Let’s be frank, throughout the history of Islamic civilizations, there have been “strong men” that have abused the Qur’an in order to justify gratuitous violence. Have things changed?

Mind you, I’m not attacking, I actually do appreciate your point because your qualification that you think violence under certain circumstances is justifiable “… as long as it doesn’t condone gratuitous violence or gives one… absolute authority” is fair. I’m merely emphasizing the distinction between an ideal and its practice.

Moreover, I do not pretend to be blind to the interactions between the West and Islamic civilizations that may have increased the power of “strong men”.

Anyway, back to the Qur’an, the certain circumstances of which I have eluded have been negative portrayed by Western Conservative media. That I can make no arguments against. And it truly is a shame because it only serves to exacerbate an “us vs other/them” mentality that precludes a common ground understanding of one another.

EDIT: For whatever reason, my comments about the circumstances under which Islam would rise against an opposition with violence keeps getting edited out by the MODs. This is more than a little irritating, MODs.

74

[quote]Chushin wrote:
will to power wrote:
Chushin wrote:
I’m not so sure of how representative our newest member’s thoughts are of mainstream Islam, but, assuming they are reasonably accurate, non-Muslim’s concerns with the religion seem quite understandable (and reasonable).

Judging from the content of what he has written throughout this thread, we in the West are living misguided lives (which assumedly should be “corrected” in line with a religious orientation).

And, of course, we are out to “get” Islam.

There seems reasonable doubt that the constant denials and more “enlightened” interpretations of Islam that we see on this forum are representative of what most Muslims believe.

Keep in mind that dyskee is a high school student, whereas the moderate point of views come from adults and their experience. I’ve found high school students to be a poor representation of the tolerance of any country I’ve lived in.

Fair enough.

So, you’d say his view probably isn’t representative?
[/quote]

That’s been my experience. Not that I’ve been to every country in the Muslim world or anything, but I’ve a lot of people from many of them.

75

How do most muslims feel about judaism and why?

76

[quote]will to power wrote:
Chushin wrote:
will to power wrote:
Chushin wrote:
I’m not so sure of how representative our newest member’s thoughts are of mainstream Islam, but, assuming they are reasonably accurate, non-Muslim’s concerns with the religion seem quite understandable (and reasonable).

Judging from the content of what he has written throughout this thread, we in the West are living misguided lives (which assumedly should be “corrected” in line with a religious orientation).

And, of course, we are out to “get” Islam.

There seems reasonable doubt that the constant denials and more “enlightened” interpretations of Islam that we see on this forum are representative of what most Muslims believe.

Keep in mind that dyskee is a high school student, whereas the moderate point of views come from adults and their experience. I’ve found high school students to be a poor representation of the tolerance of any country I’ve lived in.

Fair enough.

So, you’d say his view probably isn’t representative?

That’s been my experience. Not that I’ve been to every country in the Muslim world or anything, but I’ve a lot of people from many of them. [/quote]

Well, I don’t agree with dyskee or his posts. But at the same time, they are definitetly not causing me undue concern:

Dyskee’s views are very representative of conservative, practising muslims. They are not representative of more moderate, less practising muslims.

He believes that, generally speaking, westerners/non-muslims are misguided. He belives they should be corrected. That’s what devout religious people think! Of course, I admit that the question then becomes how people should be corrected - but unless I missed something, he hasn’t expressed his support for forced conversion…

77

[quote]Guerrero wrote:
How do most muslims feel about judaism and why? [/quote]

You’ll have to be more specific. Muslims recognize every single one of their prophets, acknowledge that their Holy Book (in its unadulterated version) came from God, are allowed eat kosher meat, etc.

Jews have traditionally been in the business of usury, and that has created frictions with Muslims and other people alike. More recently, most Muslims (like most people) have a problem with the concept of “chosen people”. Also, a certain movement that is associated with Judaism and its divine land claims are regarded as racist and discriminatory.

78

[quote]red bull wrote:
Well, I don’t agree with dyskee or his posts. But at the same time, they are definitetly not causing me undue concern:

Dyskee’s views are very representative of conservative, practising muslims. They are not representative of more moderate, less practising muslims.

He believes that, generally speaking, westerners/non-muslims are misguided. He belives they should be corrected. That’s what devout religious people think! Of course, I admit that the question then becomes how people should be corrected - but unless I missed something, he hasn’t expressed his support for forced conversion…
[/quote]

As you said, I suppose it’s how you interpret the idea that they should be corrected. I generally have not observed a drive to convert people to Islam among Arab Muslims, and I’m from a what I would call a conservative Muslim family and have known many conservative Muslims, including going to Islamic schools, both in Muslim majority and minority countries. The only country where I’ve found exception to this I have been to is Indonesia.

79

[quote]lixy wrote:
Guerrero wrote:
How do most muslims feel about judaism and why?

You’ll have to be more specific. Muslims recognize every single one of their prophets, acknowledge that their Holy Book (in its unadulterated version) came from God, are allowed eat kosher meat, etc.

Jews have traditionally been in the business of usury, and that has created frictions with Muslims and other people alike. More recently, most Muslims (like most people) have a problem with the concept of “chosen people”. Also, a certain movement that is associated with Judaism and its divine land claims are regarded as racist and discriminatory.[/quote]

And it is not so much that Muslim “racist and discriminatory divine land claims” clash with their Jewish counterpart?