About Islam

[quote]dyskee wrote:
Makavali wrote:

I thought the Taliban were trained by the CIA to take care of Russia? Not as an excuse to invade.

well u can say that this was the first objective and when russia got out the cia wanted to make use out of them :D[/quote]

You cannot honestly believe this?! Please say your joking. I realize your young, but do you honestly think world event could have been engineered to turn out this way on purpose by the U.S. or anybody else for that matter. It would be more likely that I could fart “Phantom of the Opera”.

We do not want to take over the ME for the oil. We already had all the oil we wanted and far cheaper, it is no benefit and more or a tremendous liability and headache to maintain the land on top of the oil. Since most of the land is desert any way, why the hell would we want it?

We are in Afghanistan because they attacked us. We are in Iraq because Bush is an idiot who had a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussain, and he thought he could win the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people. Trust me, we want out ASAP, but we cannot pull out and let it be a blood bath and a terrorist take over. That is why we are still there, but we don’t want to be; at all.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Guerrero wrote:
How do most muslims feel about judaism and why?

You’ll have to be more specific. Muslims recognize every single one of their prophets, acknowledge that their Holy Book (in its unadulterated version) came from God, are allowed eat kosher meat, etc.
[/quote]
What is the unadulterated version?

[quote]
Jews have traditionally been in the business of usury, and that has created frictions with Muslims and other people alike. More recently, most Muslims (like most people) have a problem with the concept of “chosen people”. Also, a certain movement that is associated with Judaism and its divine land claims are regarded as racist and discriminatory.[/quote]

I have a solution for the first, don’t borrow money from Jewish people if that worries you. No need to get pissed, it’s their money they can do with it what they wish. If you enter an agreement the the shame is on you.

Muslim make the same claims on the same land with equal discrimination. I don’t see how having Jerusalem and the surrounding land is going to get you closer to God anyway. Say it did go to the muslims, would it matter? Is that getting you to heaven any faster or better…In the end who gives a shit? It’s just another place.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
dyskee wrote:
makavali u first:

But it’s not working. That was my whole point, if it’s perfect it would work. Despite the human element.

look makavali it’s supposed to work but u keep missing thw whole point which is that we donot use it.

First of all, Hinduism refer to several different branches. The term Hindu was a British thing, coined to group all the religions in the India/Sri Lanka area into one group. My branch of Hinduism believes in ONE God. The only reason you see many is because they are all symbolic representations of different aspects of the same God. We aren’t so arrogant as to think that with our limited brain functions we can understand the full spectrum of God.

God I hope people understood that. I barely do!

well i have to read about it a little to understand so give me time to read about it when i finish my exams.

Showing yet again that the system is flawed. A truly perfect system would work perfectly in spite of people. Just like how true communism would be nice if it wasn’t for people.

if people are corrupted themselves how do you want them to rule perfectly even if they are using a perect system , its just like giving a super computer to a retard and telling him ok u’ve got the best machinery.

If you must insist it’s the best, please provide proof. I could insist that my own personal way is the best. That doesn’t make it the best.

edit: Best. Best, best and best. Did I use that word enough?

You won’t find any evidence that Sharia is the best system. Sharia is the best because it is God’s system. Anyone who doesn’t believe in God is not going to believe it is the best or that it is necessary to follow.

also i must argue with you in the basics of islam like proving that god exists and showing you the miracles of the quran and so because it’s useless that i keep arguing in the laws of islam because nobody will follow them unless he is convinced and doing it for the sake of god.
will to power:

i wasn’t implying that saudi arabia is one of the best nations here but i was telling him who rules by the shar’ia.

Are there any societies that function without countless abuses of human rights that use Shari’a exclusively?

i think iran iam just not sure
[/quote]

[quote]Makavali wrote:
dyskee wrote:

allah “god” gave us human beings a brain over animals to be able to comprehend God’s commands towards each one of us and to figure out the purpose of our existence.

thus i think that u have to use that brain to determine wether u want to follow the path of god and god’s guidance"al hoda " or “aldallah” be mislead towards hell.

We aren’t that far from the animals.

But I do agree we are supposed to figure out the purpose of our existence.

But what I don’t agree with is Islam (and other religions) actively forcing people to convert. I’m pretty sure that conversion is part of the Qur’an, can you verify this?

EDIT: Like this for example

Although I note that most moderate Muslims don’t believe in conversion.[/quote]

no one is forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want, we just show people the beauty of islam and if they choose to follow it it’s their call if they don’t it’s their choice also , as i said before everyone is free to do what he wants as long as he bears it’s consequences , did u read the quranic verses that i posted specifically for u up there???

[quote]ovalpline wrote:
Makaveli, you are correct in that the Qur’an compels followers to convert others.

Dyskee, having read the Qur’an, I take issue with your claims that Islam is “the religion of moderation” and that Islam does not condone war/violence. This latter objection is not to imply that the Qur’an encourages violence, but rather that the Qur’an certainly does, under certain circumstances, condone violence.[/quote]

i’ll reply to you by a verse of the quran that u supposedly read:

bism illah alrahman alrahim " no compulsion is there in religion. rectitude has become clear from error" (2:256)

and ovalpline donot go reading any quran on the internet there are alot of planted misinformation in those , u want to read the quran get the oxford world’s classics one .

as for the violence i’ll get you another quranic verse tonight.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
So much for Saudi Arabia and Shari’a

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy, and officially does not tolerate any other religion. Hindus are considered polytheists by Islamic law, which is used as a justification for greater discrimination in calculating accidental death or injury compensation. According to the country’s “Hanbali” interpretation of Shari’a, Hindus receive 1/16 of the amount a male Muslim receives.

I know I’m putting out a lot of Hindu vs. Islam stuff here, but looking at the persecution against Islam, it’s mostly a fear based reaction or Islam vs. Islam.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I’m not bashing you. I think the way you’ve worded some stuff makes you sound a little misguided, but you seem like an OK guy.[/quote]

thnx but once again please don’t take wikepeadia a source of your information.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Prove it. I know that’s a dumb response, but the violence shown so far does Muslims everywhere no favor. For crying out loud they wanted the death penalty over a teddy bear!

well the teddy bear issue was an insult that’s how i see it.

I believe he takes issues with the circumstances themselves, not the violence. Again, see teddy bear reference. What about the cartoon fiasco? Yes, they made fun of a religious icon (which I think was uncalled for), but that doesn’t justify the violence. Sue the cartoonist if you want, don’t kill him.

well there are alot of people who think killing is the way out , guess what it’s not. period. but the guy insulted us and he showed no respect.
[/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:
We are in Iraq because Bush is an idiot who had a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussain, and he thought he could win the “hearts and minds” of the Iraqi people. [/quote]

I’ll use the term criminal rather than idiot.

Also, need I remind you that 80% of Americans supported him “personal vendetta”?

[quote]ovalpline wrote:

I can make it just as well as you can refute it because, as per your argument, it’s based entirely on personal opinion. But I would say complete abstention from alcohol and intolerance of women’s choice are pretty compelling evidence of a lack of moderation.[/quote]

well for alcohol it’s forbidden because it’s harmful and u can’t deny that, makes you unconcious of what you are doing.
as for the women read this

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50

[quote]Well, that’s an interesting qualification and you know it. Let’s be frank, throughout the history of Islamic civilizations, there have been “strong men” that have abused the Qur’an in order to justify gratuitous violence. Have things changed?

Mind you, I’m not attacking, I actually do appreciate your point because your qualification that you think violence under certain circumstances is justifiable “… as long as it doesn’t condone gratuitous violence or gives one… absolute authority” is fair. I’m merely emphasizing the distinction between an ideal and its practice.

Moreover, I do not pretend to be blind to the interactions between the West and Islamic civilizations that may have increased the power of “strong men”.

Anyway, back to the Qur’an, the certain circumstances of which I have eluded have been negative portrayed by Western Conservative media. That I can make no arguments against. And it truly is a shame because it only serves to exacerbate an “us vs other/them” mentality that precludes a common ground understanding of one another.

EDIT: For whatever reason, my comments about the circumstances under which Islam would rise against an opposition with violence keeps getting edited out by the MODs. This is more than a little irritating, MODs.[/quote]

the concept of jihad is severely misinterpreted i’ll have to search for this verse quicker.

[quote]pat wrote:

What is the unadulterated version?[/quote]

it was the version that wasn’t infiltrated by people and which sadly doesn’t exist anymore.

[quote]I have a solution for the first, don’t borrow money from Jewish people if that worries you. No need to get pissed, it’s their money they can do with it what they wish. If you enter an agreement the the shame is on you.

Muslim make the same claims on the same land with equal discrimination. I don’t see how having Jerusalem and the surrounding land is going to get you closer to God anyway. Say it did go to the muslims, would it matter? Is that getting you to heaven any faster or better…In the end who gives a shit? It’s just another place.
[/quote]

look jerusalem is a holy land for islam christianity and judaism it’s not just for the jews. now it’s just another place for u because it’s not ur land , ur childeren aren’t killed and ur not kicked out of ur house. now i don’t have a problem with jews i have a problem with zionists and with people who threw them out of their land and gave them jerusalem as if it was their land!!!

OK GUYS SERIOUSLY THIS THREAD IS TURNING POLITICAL , NOW THAT’S NOT WHAT I WANTED .

I DIDN’T WANT ARGUMENTS EITHER , ALL I WANTED WAS TO SHOW YOU THE BEAUTY OF OUR RELIGION I WAS EXCPECTING QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM , U KNOW THE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT U ASK IF U WANT TO KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE IS THIS FORBIDDEN OR ALLOWED AND WHY ?

I HAVE NO PROBLEM DEBATING EITHER BUT NOR ARGUING IT’S JUST THAT I CAN’T JUST DEBATE AN ISSUE LIKE SHRI’A AND U DON’T KNOW ISLAM 101 .

PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICAL ISSUES BEHIND THIS IS NOT ARABS V.S. USA OR ISRAEL , IT’S ABOUT ISLAM 101

THNX ALOT

[quote]dyskee wrote:
pat wrote:

What is the unadulterated version?

it was the version that wasn’t infiltrated by people and which sadly doesn’t exist anymore.
[/quote]
How do you know it did then and how do you know what it said? What’s wrong with the current Penatuch? It has only been altered through translation which is inevitable with very old texts.

It is their land…Look at a map.

[quote]dyskee wrote:
OK GUYS SERIOUSLY THIS THREAD IS TURNING POLITICAL , NOW THAT’S NOT WHAT I WANTED .

I DIDN’T WANT ARGUMENTS EITHER , ALL I WANTED WAS TO SHOW YOU THE BEAUTY OF OUR RELIGION I WAS EXCPECTING QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM , U KNOW THE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT U ASK IF U WANT TO KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE IS THIS FORBIDDEN OR ALLOWED AND WHY ?

I HAVE NO PROBLEM DEBATING EITHER BUT NOR ARGUING IT’S JUST THAT I CAN’T JUST DEBATE AN ISSUE LIKE SHRI’A AND U DON’T KNOW ISLAM 101 .

PLEASE LEAVE THE POLITICAL ISSUES BEHIND THIS IS NOT ARABS V.S. USA OR ISRAEL , IT’S ABOUT ISLAM 101

THNX ALOT[/quote]

Quit yelling.

[quote]dyskee wrote:
OK GUYS SERIOUSLY THIS THREAD IS TURNING POLITICAL , NOW THAT’S NOT WHAT I WANTED . [/quote]

True. But with any religion, it always turns to politics. Especially with Islam. You can blame Osama for that.

Sounds like all you want to hear is questions that paint Islam in a perfect light. Hate to break it to you, but no religion can look that way.

Why is pork forbidden? Why are women oppressed? Why were women treated like animals until recently? Why do you disapprove of homosexuality? What’s up with the persecution of Jews?

I don’t think I missed the point with Shari’a. I merely state that if it is perfect, then humans would have no reason to be drawn away from it. I know it’s not being used. Why not? There must be some underlying imperfection in the system if so many have abandoned it.

There will always be the political element. However, I’ll personally try to minimize it.

You’re welcome?

pat who do u refer to by “their”, and i wasn’t yelling lol i just wanted to make it look serious.

[quote]dyskee wrote:

well the teddy bear issue was an insult that’s how i see it.

well there are alot of people who think killing is the way out , guess what it’s not. period. but the guy insulted us and he showed no respect. [/quote]

Still no reason for rioting and death threats.

[quote]dyskee wrote:
thnx but once again please don’t take wikepeadia a source of your information.[/quote]

Why? For the most part, it’s accurate and impartial.

Also, have a read of the signs these ‘peaceful’ protester are holding.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Protesters2006.jpg

Just to point out, I’m not bashing Islam, I’m pointing out that like all religions, it ain’t all pretty.

That sounds good to me.

I have a question.

What is the mainstream Sunni understanding of Surahs 9:5 and 9:29?

my dear makavali :

  1. i know it turns political but i suck at politics and this way i won’t be able to answer.

2)no no no no , i wanted questions that show what islam is. because i believe that it is perfect and that does it fine for me.

3)A)the reason behind the prohibtion of pork is because allah prohibted it. there are no other reasons in the quran or ahadith that say why other than god’s command.

but we do believe that allah is the wise whose orders and prohibitions are not meaningless, but rather contain rationale and wisdom.

Therefore, you can rest assured that, in the final analysis, the harms of eating pork outweigh its benefits, even if we have not yet learned or discovered the details of this.

however scientific research has discovered some health hazards related to pork . The following summary is extracted from a scientific paper on the website of the Islamic Organization for Medical Sciences:

(The more important and definitely proven hazards connected with the consumption of pork are the two parasitic zoonoses, trichinellosis and systemic cysticercosis. Both these infections can be life threatening and their prevention requires difficult measures including change of food habits.

Of the non-communicable diseases attributable to pork consumption (food) allergy and liver cirrhosis have been shown to occur, though more work is needed to prove its aetiological role in cirrhosis.

Consumption of pork and lard can give rise to hyperlipidaemia, constituting a risk factor in cardiovascular diseases. Furthermore, high pork and lard consumption in a low fiber diet would have a correlation with high incidence of cancer of the colon. However, these risk factors are shared by pork with other meats and foods of animal origin.

Of the additives used in curing pork for preparation of ham, bacon, sausages, etc. nitrites could be a hazard as they are converted to nitrosamines which have been shown to be carcinogenic in animals. The exact risk for man is not known and nitrites are present in many other foods including vegetables and sometimes in drinking water.

Pig breeding establishments can be sources of transmission of zoonoses to people exposed to living animals; these include leptospirosis (swineherds disease), brucellosis, erysipeloid and anthrax. Pigs may also increase chances of spread of balantidial dysentery and Japanese encephalitis. However, other meat animals can also act as sources of some of these zoonoses and of others which may be equally (or more) dangerous.

Pigs can cause strong psychological reactions (e.g. disgust) especially when scavenging on rubbish heaps or wallowing in mud mixed with their own excreta.)

B)who told you that they are opressed?

muslims don’t claim that men and women have the same rights. god clearly stated that they are not the same and that god has made men the providers and caretakers of women and that in a marriage the man has the upper hand so long as he does provide for his wife.

here from the quran: bism illah alrahman alrahim (and when she gave birth to her she said ’ lord i have given birth to her, a female’. and god knew very well what she had given birth to; the male is not as the female. and i have named her maryand commend her to thee with her seed to protect them from the accursed satan. her lord recieved the child with gracious favour.)(3:35-37)

but on the other hand that doesn’t mean that god denied the women of any rights but they have their own rights.

here from the quran:
bism ilah alrahman alrahim
(To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask God of His bounty. For God hath full knowledge of all things) (4:31-32)

C)what i meant by recently was before islam not recently as in the past week. before islam women were objectified as sex and entertainment objects no more no less, after islam they were looked upon as human beings who have rights.

D) God forbids the homosexual act in the strongest possible language. it was mentioned in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah even FURTHER detailed in the Qur’an, but God clearly stated in the quran that any sexual act committed with anyone aside from one’s wife, is considered “fornication” or “adultery”. Both “fornication” and “adultery” are Major sins.

Many homosexuals claim that the homosexuality is permitted because people are “born that way”.
This is not acknowledged in Islam. as i said before every one born has the right to choose what to do wether sins or good deeds.

also, each individual has a different set of temptations that seem to trouble him most. sadly, people tend to excuse themselves in the things that are MOST difficult for them to avoid for the sake of God.

regarding the above argument, EVERY person decides whether or not to engage in the homosexual act or not, and for that reason, every time they fall prey to their own desires or Satanic inclinations, they are accountable.

Some may argue that certain people get attracted to the same sex more often than others, but this is not disputed.

all of the people get all sorts of desires, inclinations, fetishes, and addictions: these range wide on the scale of humanity. The point is that EACH PERSON is tested in the thing they love most, to see whether they will refrain from it for the sake of God.

Secondly, sexual desire is a matter of environment. When people honestly want to remove a sexual desire, they have to be serious with themselves and know that certain environments create this desire moreso than others.

Some people indulge in sexual literature, movies, pictures, discussions, or people and places that share their views. This FURTHER increases the temptation instead of combating it.

god recommended fasting if u can’t keep ur lust in check.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: God curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lot repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.

bism illha alrahman alrahim
(what do you come to male beings, leaving your wives that your lord created for you? nay, but you are a people of transgressors. they said’ if thou givest not over, lot, ththou shalt assuredly be one of the expelled’, he said’ truly iam a detester of what you do’.�? my lord deliver me and my people from that they do. so we delivered him and his people all together, except an old woman (his wife) lingered behind. Then, the rest We destroyed utterly.(26: 164-172).

E)they are drawn away from it because they are drawn away from their faith.

now i have a question for you why do u take my longest posts and ask about them lol? hahah