Just when you thought that it couldn’t get any worse Dillman:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn’t work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense. [/quote]
If you have unrealistic expectations of what something will do and you get disappointed because of your unrealistic expectations that does not by default make something a ruse. If you are going to teach a group of people you can’t have a free for all with every ego in the room trying to dominate. You need cooperation to get the knowledge across.
A right cross is a fairly easy technique to teach, you can have two people just wail away at each other and students might get the basic idea so that they could use it. With nerve centers you are dealing with fine details of anatomy, so you have to teach it in a way that people can see it and feel it.
As simple as a right cross is, you can mess that up if you don’t know what you are doing.
[quote]
I can’t think of the guys name but he’s the “Dim Mak” pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn’t work and in fact Tank didn’t even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points. [/quote]
Come on now. You are trying to act like you know what you are talking about and you can’t even remember the mans name or the art he teaches. If you are going to diss something you should at least do your homework or a google search. You don’t even need to search outside of T-Nation because I’ve already covered this subject before.
George Dillman is no expert. You can’t make judgements about Tuite based upon him. So what if he gave Dan Severn a lesson or two and it didn’t work for him against Tank Abbott, that doesn’t mean shit. Some of this stuff isn’t going to be learned in a minute, even from someone who does know what they are doing. And you can’t make generalizations about the entire human race based upon Tank Abbott. WTF! You could probably hit Tank with a baseball bat and he wouldn’t react to that either.
I think the walk away message is that when people don’t want to take the time and effort to learn something they will come up with a rational to dismiss it as useless. That way they can say something is useless without really knowing what they are talking about.
Last but not least, you would be surpried what people will allow someone to do to them in a fight. Especially when it is something they didn’t see coming because they didn’t know or realize what could happen next…
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]
Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things? Why must someone who is skilled at using nerve attacks ONLY be skilled at that one aspect of combat? [/quote]
I’ll give you a reason, ego. Once they can dismiss it as junk they can then stroke their ego by convincing themselves they know better or they even have a better way, without having to learn anything or put in any hard work or perseverance.
[quote]
And what would that really mean anyway?
It could be a Boxer/Muay Thai/Muay Boran fighter who is really good at targeting nerve centers with his/her strikes. Would you want to face such a person?
It could be a catch wrestler/Jiu-jitsu/BJJ fighter who loves to use nerve attacks to “soften” you up and set you up for joint breaks/chokes/pain compliance holds. Would you want to face them?
See my point? Stop thinking about this stuff so one-dimensionally. This stuff is already utilized in a lot of the arts which have proven combat effective. Yes there are kooks like Dillman who try to make it out to be more than it really is, or try to portray it as being some sort of magical powers and give it a bad name. But the real stuff is very effective and there is nothing magical about it.[/quote]
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]
Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things?[/quote]
Because they don’t work? Just a guess.
Because those who usually claim great skill in pressure points are full of crap? And good fighters who win fights and say they know pressure points usually never use them?
I really want to believe you man, you’re a credible guy on this forum. So just point out some really good full-contact fighter who regularly uses pressure points to win fights.
Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.
Fair enough?
[/quote]
ZEB,come on dude…don’t make your credibility in this forum all about providing a difference of opinion. There has to be some balance with knowledge of combat-related stuff. 
Sentoguy,made some valid points that are pretty obvious. When people say pressure points they somehow focus on the ways of hocus pocus masters and self-defense experts with 1001-0 streetfighting records…lol. What you mean to say is that simply applying pressure to NERVE pressure points on a moving,combative person doesn’t work(at least there is a good argument as to why it won’t).
This all goes back to Sento commented on people’s “black and white” views with this. You say they don’t work,BUT you are accidentally(benefit of doubt) arguing the application…and concluding that they do not exist or work AT ALL.
There is a reason the outside/inside of leg is targeted. There is a reason good-placed body shots and strikes to solar plexus shut people down. Carotid artery/side of neck(vagus nerve)…yes. Ever seen a head kick attempt that actually hit the neck and still resulted in KO? I have. Pressure points are not just nerve-related. What about your chin?? GASP BUT…BUT…does a well-placed strike to the chin KO everyone? NO. But with that,can you say it doesn’t work???
Not saying that it all works on everyone…but it is all proven. Especially when the application is from STRIKES not hocus-pocus death touch. BUT I will say that the biggest issue with strikes to pressure points is accuracy. Most of these points are small targets and EASY to miss. With that,people will be better off attacking targets with bigger surface area.
Just some food for thought.
[/quote]
You are making a lot of sense. Just to add on to it I would like to say that there are good teachers and there are bad teachers. There are also good students and bad students. I was lucky enough to have good teachers who had good teachers. In fact they had the same Tuite teacher as George Dillman, Seiyu Oyata.
The difference betweent Dillman and my teachers however is my teachers spent years training with Master Oyata, one of them even earned his black belt from Master Oyata. Dillman on the other hand attended a seminar then bought an anatomy chart of the central nervous system and founded his own school on that very limited knowledge.
You can’t do what Dillman has done with Tuite. Every cubic centimeter of the body is a little bit different from it’s neighbor. That is why it is not enough to merely know where nerves are then beat on them. Because of the different overlying or underlying anatomy different nerves require different weapons to have maximum effect. Plus there are ways to hit a nerve that increases the effect. That is why Tuite is it’s own art.
Anyone else love liver shots? be it a left hook, kick, knee etc. I always go for the liver. Especially for street fights its non lethal you dont have to worry about lawsuits.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Anyone else love liver shots? be it a left hook, kick, knee etc. I always go for the liver. Especially for street fights its non lethal you dont have to worry about lawsuits.[/quote]
Hee hee, I do! I was kicked in the liver and dropped like a stone. I thought it was my own personal apocalypse. Now I’m working on delivering my own liver strikes.
Borrek mentioned pressing the nerves on the inside of the leg to open a guard. I like doing this by ramming my elbows in & grinding away. Lovely.
As far as the more fine-tuned nerve strikes to the forearm etc., I’ve had these used successfully against me when I studied karate, but I could rarely pull them off. My chief instructor was extraordinarily good at this sort of stuff. Not me.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Anyone else love liver shots? be it a left hook, kick, knee etc. I always go for the liver. Especially for street fights its non lethal you dont have to worry about lawsuits.[/quote]
There ya go.
[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
As far as the more fine-tuned nerve strikes to the forearm etc., I’ve had these used successfully against me when I studied karate, but I could rarely pull them off. My chief instructor was extraordinarily good at this sort of stuff. Not me.[/quote]
It depends on what type of guard your opponent is using and what nerves you are trying to hit. Against a classic boxing defensive guard (both hands up by chin/temples, elbows down and in to protect floating ribs/liver) you can hit the ulnar nerve with a sharp hook or by pivoting out slightly to the left and throwing a jab (aim for the pinky side “blade” of the forearm) to split the guard, deaden the arms and allow you to throw a right between their guard.
You can also essentially “deaden” the arm with blocking, but it’s really only effective against swinging style punches. Probably wouldn’t work too well against a good boxer who throws jabs and straight rights.
On the streets it’s quite hard to actually score clean bodyshots.
Even more, since it’s mostly about the first 2-5 seconds.
@ livershots If you’re at a physical disadvantage -quite common- and/or it’s cold season (thick jackets), livershots become the dodos of punching technique. Ie , you might see them rather in the movies then in reality.
Not gonna happen.
If you’re stronger and can realize quicky that the other guy has no business trading punches with you, going for the body is an option.
Still very difficult.
Sifu,
I know what you’re all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You’re into the traditional arts, you’ve dedicated your life to them. Let’s not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I’ll stick to what I like. This way we’ll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Anyone else love liver shots? be it a left hook, kick, knee etc. I always go for the liver. Especially for street fights its non lethal you dont have to worry about lawsuits.[/quote]
Hee hee, I do! I was kicked in the liver and dropped like a stone. I thought it was my own personal apocalypse. Now I’m working on delivering my own liver strikes.
Borrek mentioned pressing the nerves on the inside of the leg to open a guard. I like doing this by ramming my elbows in & grinding away. Lovely.
As far as the more fine-tuned nerve strikes to the forearm etc., I’ve had these used successfully against me when I studied karate, but I could rarely pull them off. My chief instructor was extraordinarily good at this sort of stuff. Not me.[/quote]
To get really good you have to practice techniques until they are second nature so you can just react with out having to think about it. This is what the Karate people call Mushin or the JKD people call noninterruption. When you have that ability working properly the moment you see an opening you will have a response without thinking about it.
The opposite of that is having your heart on using a particular technique, so now you are looking for a particualr opening so you can use it. When you get into that mindset you will miss out on opportunities to use other techniques because you are preoccupied looking for the opening you need to use what you want to use instead of just reacting to what your opponent is giving you.
So if you go into a fight looking to attack nerve centers you are not going to get what you want and you are going to get tore up. What is important to understand is this also applies to any other technique.
The only exception to this is when you outclass your opponent to the point that you can just toy with them. Then you can use them as a live practice dummy. Which is probably why your karate teacher was able to use nerve attacks so well on you.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you’re all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You’re into the traditional arts, you’ve dedicated your life to them. Let’s not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I’ll stick to what I like. This way we’ll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
[/quote]
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn’t hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn’t like when I was young I really like now. If I didn’t have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn’t like I wouldn’t be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can’t make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don’t know what or how I was taught or how I practice.
good post, Sifu
p.s. perhaps you can help me out. There is a budo word for “the right moment”, that I forgot.
Basically, it’s a principle that calls not for waiting for a specific moment, but rather attaining the right mindset to perceive and simultaneously act upon it.
It’s not necessarily from Karate.
-S.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
good post, Sifu
p.s. perhaps you can help me out. There is a budo word for “the right moment”, that I forgot.
Basically, it’s a principle that calls not for waiting for a specific moment, but rather attaining the right mindset to perceive and simultaneously act upon it.
It’s not necessarily from Karate.
-S.[/quote]
I can agree- nice post sifu…
Swartz are you talking about
Ri-ai
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you’re all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You’re into the traditional arts, you’ve dedicated your life to them. Let’s not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I’ll stick to what I like. This way we’ll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
[/quote]
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn’t hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn’t like when I was young I really like now. If I didn’t have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn’t like I wouldn’t be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can’t make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don’t know what or how I was taught or how I practice. [/quote]
(Nodding head up and down) Yes, Sifu, yes, you are a great karate master. I am an evil weightlifting grappling guy who hurt your knee.
There, I feel better now and I hope you do too.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
On the streets it’s quite hard to actually score clean bodyshots.
Even more, since it’s mostly about the first 2-5 seconds.
@ livershots If you’re at a physical disadvantage -quite common- and/or it’s cold season (thick jackets), livershots become the dodos of punching technique. Ie , you might see them rather in the movies then in reality.
Not gonna happen.
If you’re stronger and can realize quicky that the other guy has no business trading punches with you, going for the body is an option.
Still very difficult.[/quote]
Actually I’d disagree about it being hard to land body shots “in the street”. Most trained fighters have a hard time protecting their bodies, let alone untrained people. Not only that but most street fighters are “head hunters”, thus making it even less likely that the person will be accustomed to defending body shots.
True that not trying to end the fight ASAP and instead trying to “box” someone in a real fight is a mistake though. It’s also true that the weather/type of clothing worn by the opponent will make some targets less appropriate, but can you name any targets or techniques that are accessible 100% of the time in a street fight?
The guy could be wearing a motorcycle helmet, making striking to the head not all that effective. Doesn’t mean that striking to the head isn’t realistic in a street fight.
You just have to pick the most appropriate targets/techniques for the given situation. Getting stuck in a “this is better than that” mindset can result in “tactical tunnelvision” and put you at a disadvantage.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sifu,
I know what you’re all about we had this debate probably 3 or 4 years ago. You’re into the traditional arts, you’ve dedicated your life to them. Let’s not have this deabte again okay? You can use Dillman type pressure points and practice your katas and I’ll stick to what I like. This way we’ll both save lots of time.
All the best,
Zeb
[/quote]
I feel you Zeb. Just so you know I did try one of your suggestions. All the extra weight fucked my knee and foot up so I had to lose a lot of it. So now I am back down to 164 with a damaged knee.
Why would I waste my time on a self taught nobody like Dillman, when I have teachers who have a lineage that goes back hundreds of years and actually know what they are doing?
Practicing kata hasn’t hurt Lyoto Machida or anyone else who has a reasonable expectation of what kata can do for them. If you know the right ones you have an extensive body of knowledge to draw upon.
Something important I have learned about kata is that when I first learned them there were some techniques that I did not like or think much of. But 25 years later some of those techniques I didn’t like when I was young I really like now. If I didn’t have kata practice to force me to keep doing things I didn’t like I wouldn’t be good at them now becase I would have thought oh this sucks and just given up.
One last point is one can’t make generalizations about kata like you do. Because you don’t know what or how I was taught or how I practice. [/quote]
(Nodding head up and down) Yes, Sifu, yes, you are a great karate master. I am an evil weightlifting grappling guy who hurt your knee.
There, I feel better now and I hope you do too.
[/quote]
You know what, I do feel much better now.I never considered myself a master. Let alone a great one. My weak, insecure ego really needed that stroking. Thank you Zeb you’re the man. I’m going to print and frame this post so I can put it on my wall!
Just for the record I have nothing against grappling. Though I did lose some of my interest after I saw a fighter kicked off of TUF because he had an active Herpes legion on his face.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Actually I’d disagree about it being hard to land body shots “in the street”. Most trained fighters have a hard time protecting their bodies, let alone untrained people. Not only that but most street fighters are “head hunters”, thus making it even less likely that the person will be accustomed to defending body shots.
[/quote]
True, but rarely are body shots blatantly open. I would aim for the solar plexus (have done and it does work) but anything lower than that (floating ribs, liver) is going to be more difficult, especially wearing a jacket or heavy clothing. Or an iron plate like in back to the future.
I disagree that boxing is a bad idea- depends on the area. In a parking lot, you can be damned sure that I’m going to use boxing for all its worth to stick and move… all it takes is a couple good shots and a fight could be ended, and the less damage you’re sustaining, the better off you’ll be.
Face shots are usually open against untrained fighters- rarely does a guy naturally know how to parry a punch or slip it.
True.
[quote]
You just have to pick the most appropriate targets/techniques for the given situation. Getting stuck in a “this is better than that” mindset can result in “tactical tunnelvision” and put you at a disadvantage.[/quote]
Absolutely right.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I disagree that boxing is a bad idea- depends on the area. In a parking lot, you can be damned sure that I’m going to use boxing for all its worth to stick and move… all it takes is a couple good shots and a fight could be ended, and the less damage you’re sustaining, the better off you’ll be.
[/quote]
What I meant was that the longer a fight goes on, the greater the chance that a weapon or multiples will become involved. So, the goal should be to end the fight ASAP. “Boxing” someone (sticking and moving as you put it) can be effective, but it also prolongs the duration of the fight.
I’m not saying that it is never appropriate, just that I’d try to end the fight ASAP if at all possible.
In filipino martial arts we have something called “gunting”, which comes from cutting with knives. These moves are additional strikes when blocking and hitting, usually going for muscles. If we hit a nerve point its a bonus, but its not needed. If we have something in our hands we can use the same principles, so most handheld objects become weapons.