A Sensei Once Told Me

Training
21

Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn’t work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.

I can’t think of the guys name but he’s the “Dim Mak” pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn’t work and in fact Tank didn’t even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.

I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that’s not a fight is it?

22

[quote]Boffin wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Personally I have trained a fair amount of pressure points (we call them “nerve attacks”) and they do work, on a live fully resisting opponent (if you actually train them that way) no less. But the way that this sensei seems to be talking about using them doesn’t sound like he has actually trained them that way.

I would never, ever just grab someone by the arm and try to squeeze down on a pressure point (and I’ve got a pretty strong “crushing grip” no less) and think that it’s going to render them helpless and end the fight. I might target pressure points on their forearm(s) with strikes though, to momentarily “deaden” that arm, or open up their guard so I could hit them in the face.

It sounds like yet another one dimensional mindset regarding this “arsenal” of techniques.

There are a lot of “smoke and mirrors” pressure point guys out there who make some fantastic claims and thus give pressure point/nerve attacks a bad name. When in reality they can be very effective and useful tools. I hope that maybe the OP’s Sensei wasn’t one of them and he’s just translating his experience poorly, but I fear that’s not the case.[/quote]

Pressure point (and joint locks) don’t work very well if the attacker is drunk (and I suppose if you’re sober its relatively easy to defend yourself. Trouble is I’m not always sober!)[/quote]

Again, you seem to be thinking about this very one dimensionally. And honestly it sounds like you’ve never had someone who’s any good at pressure points or joint locks do them to you, because they are NOT easy to defend (drunk or sober).

I don’t care if you’re drunk, sober, stoned, on PCP, whatever, if I break your thumb (using a joint lock), you aren’t going to be grabbing me or able to use any weapons with that hand. If I break your leg (knee, ankle, Achilles tendon, whatever) you aren’t going to be very effective in chasing me. If I break your neck or your back, fight’s over.

Same is true of pressure points. If I crack you in the carotid sinus with a punch, kick, elbow, pool cue, whatever you are going nighty night. If I take my thumb and jam it into that same spot, your body is going to reflexively pull away from that pressure (which also results in your chin coming down towards your chest) which is going to allow me to easily push you backwards, creating space for me to hit you/sink in a bite/escape a bad position/whatever; or I can use this opportunity (your chin being down) to lock your neck; or just break your clinch/grip on me.

Train with someone who’s skilled at pressure points/nerve attacks and joint locks and you’ll change your mind very quickly.

23

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn’t work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.

I can’t think of the guys name but he’s the “Dim Mak” pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn’t work and in fact Tank didn’t even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.

I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that’s not a fight is it?
[/quote]

You’re probably thinking of George Dillman, who yes is pretty much a fraud.

That doesn’t mean that everyone who teaches “pressure points” (which I think a better term for is nerve attacks, since that’s what you are actually attacking most of the time) is also a fraud. Nor does it mean that nerve attacks will only work against a compliant opponent.

In fact, lots of martial arts (even those commonly found in MMA) utilize nerves on a regular basis. Muay Thai’s leg kicks are targeted towards the nerves of the legs. BJJ/Sambo/Catch wrestling utilizes attacking the nerves in techniques like a calf crusher, short arm scissor, grovit face lock, shin lock, guard passing, etc… Rocky Marciano used to love to target the nerves of the forearms in order to weaken his opponent’s ability to cover up.

Even just pressuring against them with a thumb, elbow, knee, ect… can be effective. It’s not going to end a real fight in most cases, but it’ll definitely get a reaction. And knowing what reaction it’s going to get allows one to quickly flow into other arsenals which will end the fight, or at least allow someone to quickly get out of a bad situation.

Here is Shihan Lysak demonstrating a nerve attack to the carotid artery/sinus as a way to escape mount position. Obviously, like just about every technique, there are certain situational elements that must be present for this exact application to work. But I can assure you that it’s a very usable and effective technique used in other contexts as well. And I’ve used it many, many times against fully resisting opponents.

24

[quote]bond james blonde wrote:
I was going through a closet the other day and found my old log book from Sinanju. A sensei from the US put on a semanar and I wrote this down. Someone asked him about street fighting and this was his responce.

  1. Fast car

  2. Shout explosively to damage the eardrum

  3. Instant customer satisfaction

  4. Use only approved south east Korean techniques. Beware of shoddy south-western junk techniques!

  5. It’s always justified!

  6. Play it safe, even if victim is on the pill.

This Sensei’s speciality were drowning techniques. I wasn’t sure he meant actual aquatic combat or that his wish was to drown in a heap of money one day. I felt bad for the hundreds of guys that he supposedly mauled with his dim-sum technique…
[/quote]

25

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Pressure point training is very much a ruse. If you notice the only time that pressure point attacks really work is when you have a willing assistant. What doesn’t work when someone stands there and allows you to do something to them? One could easily demonstrate a right cross on someone who is standing there ready to be hit not offering any defense.

I can’t think of the guys name but he’s the “Dim Mak” pressure point death touch guy. He gave lessons to Dan Severn just before he fought Tank Abbott in the UFC. After the fight Severn said that he tried no less than 19 times to use these super secret pressure point moves and they flat out didn’t work and in fact Tank didn’t even react. He went on to win that fight anyway because he was a superior wrestler not because of pressure points.

I guess the walk away message is that anything will work if the person allows you to do it to them, but then that’s not a fight is it?
[/quote]

You’re probably thinking of George Dillman, who yes is pretty much a fraud.[/quote]

Yes, Dillman that was it.

I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.

26
  1. Sweep the leg.
27

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]

Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things? Why must someone who is skilled at using nerve attacks ONLY be skilled at that one aspect of combat?

And what would that really mean anyway?

It could be a Boxer/Muay Thai/Muay Boran fighter who is really good at targeting nerve centers with his/her strikes. Would you want to face such a person?

It could be a catch wrestler/Jiu-jitsu/BJJ fighter who loves to use nerve attacks to “soften” you up and set you up for joint breaks/chokes/pain compliance holds. Would you want to face them?

See my point? Stop thinking about this stuff so one-dimensionally. This stuff is already utilized in a lot of the arts which have proven combat effective. Yes there are kooks like Dillman who try to make it out to be more than it really is, or try to portray it as being some sort of magical powers and give it a bad name. But the real stuff is very effective and there is nothing magical about it.

28

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]

Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things?[/quote]
Because they don’t work? Just a guess.

Because those who usually claim great skill in pressure points are full of crap? And good fighters who win fights and say they know pressure points usually never use them?

I really want to believe you man, you’re a credible guy on this forum. So just point out some really good full-contact fighter who regularly uses pressure points to win fights.

Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.

Fair enough?

:slight_smile:

29

pressure points dun work on no muscle bjorn

30

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]

Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things?[/quote]
Because they don’t work? Just a guess.

Because those who usually claim great skill in pressure points are full of crap? And good fighters who win fights and say they know pressure points usually never use them?

I really want to believe you man, you’re a credible guy on this forum. So just point out some really good full-contact fighter who regularly uses pressure points to win fights.

Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.

Fair enough?

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

ZEB,come on dude…don’t make your credibility in this forum all about providing a difference of opinion. There has to be some balance with knowledge of combat-related stuff. :wink:

Sentoguy,made some valid points that are pretty obvious. When people say pressure points they somehow focus on the ways of hocus pocus masters and self-defense experts with 1001-0 streetfighting records…lol. What you mean to say is that simply applying pressure to NERVE pressure points on a moving,combative person doesn’t work(at least there is a good argument as to why it won’t).

This all goes back to Sento commented on people’s “black and white” views with this. You say they don’t work,BUT you are accidentally(benefit of doubt) arguing the application…and concluding that they do not exist or work AT ALL.

There is a reason the outside/inside of leg is targeted. There is a reason good-placed body shots and strikes to solar plexus shut people down. Carotid artery/side of neck(vagus nerve)…yes. Ever seen a head kick attempt that actually hit the neck and still resulted in KO? I have. Pressure points are not just nerve-related. What about your chin?? GASP BUT…BUT…does a well-placed strike to the chin KO everyone? NO. But with that,can you say it doesn’t work???

Not saying that it all works on everyone…but it is all proven. Especially when the application is from STRIKES not hocus-pocus death touch. BUT I will say that the biggest issue with strikes to pressure points is accuracy. Most of these points are small targets and EASY to miss. With that,people will be better off attacking targets with bigger surface area.

Just some food for thought.

31

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I dunno, my friend, you can color me skeptical at best. I’d much rather step out into the street against someone trained in pressure point attacks than say um any one else who knows anything else.
[/quote]

Again, why does everyone have such a black and white mindset when it comes to these things?[/quote]
Because they don’t work? Just a guess.

Because those who usually claim great skill in pressure points are full of crap? And good fighters who win fights and say they know pressure points usually never use them?

I really want to believe you man, you’re a credible guy on this forum. So just point out some really good full-contact fighter who regularly uses pressure points to win fights.

Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.

Fair enough?

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

ZEB,come on dude…don’t make your credibility in this forum all about providing a difference of opinion. There has to be some balance with knowledge of combat-related stuff. :wink:

Sentoguy,made some valid points that are pretty obvious. When people say pressure points they somehow focus on the ways of hocus pocus masters and self-defense experts with 1001-0 streetfighting records…lol. What you mean to say is that simply applying pressure to NERVE pressure points on a moving,combative person doesn’t work(at least there is a good argument as to why it won’t).

This all goes back to Sento commented on people’s “black and white” views with this. You say they don’t work,BUT you are accidentally(benefit of doubt) arguing the application…and concluding that they do not exist or work AT ALL.

There is a reason the outside/inside of leg is targeted. There is a reason good-placed body shots and strikes to solar plexus shut people down. Carotid artery/side of neck(vagus nerve)…yes. Ever seen a head kick attempt that actually hit the neck and still resulted in KO? I have. Pressure points are not just nerve-related. What about your chin?? GASP BUT…BUT…does a well-placed strike to the chin KO everyone? NO. But with that,can you say it doesn’t work???

Not saying that it all works on everyone…but it is all proven. Especially when the application is from STRIKES not hocus-pocus death touch. BUT I will say that the biggest issue with strikes to pressure points is accuracy. Most of these points are small targets and EASY to miss. With that,people will be better off attacking targets with bigger surface area.

Just some food for thought.

[/quote]

If you broaden the scope of what a pressure point is, I would agree with you. Punching someone in the chin is a pressure point move? Well, okay sure why not? But, in reality I think you know what I’m referring to when the subject of pressure points are brought up. Dillman and many others as well in the “pressure point cult” can magically touch someone and poof their like jello on the floor.

I’m aware that there are parts of the body that are more vulnerable than other parts. If you strike those parts hard enough you get a positive result. If you are saying whenever someone gets punched in the solar plexus or on chin they’ve used pressure point technique fine. Hey what about the kick to the pressure point in the balls? That’s a good one too huh? Ha. But, seriously, that’s not what I’m talking about.

From what Sento has stated there are full-contact fighters who use pressure points to win fights. Maybe this happens, all I’m saying is that I’ve never seen anyone use pressure points successfully, but I have seen charlatans like Dillman (and others) over promote what they call pressure point usage, and hence don’t believe it.

Maybe I’m just a victim of seeing the hype and turning away in disgust and missing out on those who use these techniques to their advantage in a full-contact situation.

I remain open-minded and await some evidence.

32

[quote]bond james bond wrote:

Not really any such thing.

[/quote]

I bet this would. First strengthen grip to point of making this:

as easy as pie. Then after you can easily apply 365 lbs of force with one squeeze – grab person anywhere and rip their flesh out.

33

Pressure points are there, certainly. I don’t think that anyone is talking about magical death grips here either. I left a karate school because they gave me that line of bullshit.

Striking to the chin is aiming for a pressure point though, as is a strike to the temple, the side of the neck under the ear (Which is very effective), aiming a low kick for the nerve that runs down the inside of the leg (See it in MMA all the time), etc.

That pressure point on your forearm? Death touch won’t help, but if a guy grabs you and you hammerfist straight down on that point, it certainly can buckle his knees and cause a tremendous amount of pain.

Punching for the solar plexus is the same thing- going directly towards a nerve center.

There is no question that these tactics work. I’ve some of them myself, and, like everything else in fighting, they’re not 100 percent, but hitting a guy in the solar plexus will probably level him.

I don’t understnad what the argument is here.

34

Pressure points can also be useful in other ways- i.e., using a crossface to lift a guy’s head up so you can sink a choke hold better.

35

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.

Fair enough?

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

What about peeling open guard by pressing on the inside of the knees. That isn’t a strike.

36

Most pressure points are semi useless, because it’s already hard to land clean technique in the first place-
So we’re talking here about maximizing efficiency through making a technique harder - this rarely worked out.

And if you can effortlessly go for the “point”, you seldom do it, because you probably don’t train it.

37

[quote]borrek wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Then just name some good fighters who say they regularly use this stuff to win. I am ready to change my mind on this if you have the information.

Fair enough?

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

What about peeling open guard by pressing on the inside of the knees. That isn’t a strike.[/quote]

Yup, that’s a very common one. Using the femoral artery (about half way up the inside of the inner thigh) is another common one (both for striking and for opening the guard).

I also mentioned submissions like a “calf cutter” and “biceps slicer/short arm scissor” found in BJJ/Sambo/Catch. Both of those techniques work BECAUSE you are applying pressure to a nerve.

As far as them being hard to hit, that’s obviously going to depend on the context and what nerve/weapon you’re targeting/using. Like I said numerous times, leg kicks are targeted at the nerves of the legs. Ever see a fighter who effectively used leg kicks and wins fights? I’ll bet you have.

Here is a video (with a medical doctor no less) demonstrating the anatomy of the leg and the nerves in it:

Someone mentioned the chin. I’ve stated several times before in other threads that one of the primary targets on the chin is the mental nerve. Go ahead and look in any anatomy textbook and you’ll see the mental foramen on the side of the chin, precisely the place targeted to cause the head to snap, thus causing a KO. This nerve is also targeted in techniques aimed to turn/lock the head/neck.

Also, as far as people using them in MMA/boxing/kickboxing, you have to remember that many of these points have been deemed “off limits” and/or you are limited in how you can attack them. For instance, striking the occipital area (base of the skull), aka “rabbit punching” has been illegal in striking sports for quite a while. Likewise you can’t jam your thumb into the hollow of the throat to attack the larynx or up under the supraorbital ridge to attack the supraorbital nerve, but those techniques are both very effective (the throat can be lethal).

So, it’s going to be tough to point you to MMA fighters/boxers/Muay Thai fighters who utilize this stuff in other applications because in many cases they aren’t allowed to do so in their sport.

38

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
it’s going to be tough to point you to MMA fighters/boxers/Muay Thai fighters who utilize this stuff in other applications because in many cases they aren’t allowed to do so in their sport.
[/quote]

It’s an interesting topic and I can see the difference between those who attack the more traditional nerve centers as opposed to those using questionable tactics like Dillman and others with their pressure point fighting. While you have not shown me any solid evidence I think I follow what you’re saying.

Perhaps the differing terminolgoyl; “pressure points” vs. “nerve centers” is what to look for when sifting through the fakes to get to the real deal.

39

Be careful whatever you do DON’T LET DILLMAN TOUCH YOU. And wow look at all those dangerous black belts. Well, just by looking at him you can tell he’s a physical specimen :slight_smile:

40

Dillman picking on an old man: