A New Way To Look At The Importance Of Squatting & Deadlifting

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
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I know that in business you spend the maximum amount of time on the area that can yield the most profit. It makes sense to invest in an area that can bear the most gains.

If this holds true in developing the body then why spend as much time training biceps at you would training your legs?

How many times do we read a post from someone new to the forum who states that they have a hard time gaining muscle weight. Occasionally,we find out that they are spending large amounts of time doing isolation curls. If it is muscle weight that they want they need to focus on the muscles that are able to put on the most weight, the fastest.

You can put one pound of muscle on each leg with some work. Which is a net gain of about 1.3% on a 150lb rookie! Can you imagine putting one pound of muscle on each bicep? (stop dreaming). What would be the most weight you could add to each bicep over a three or four month period, realistically.

If we were to break down the body into parts and give the largest parts the most time, that would mean that the Gluts and legs should receive the lions share of training, if you want the maximum amount of results in the minimum amount of time. Then perhaps the back would fall into the number three postion.

This is not to state that the biceps should be ignored, relative to direct work.

Any program (especially a beginners) that has at least 70% of the work going to the Glutes, Legs and Back, would seem to me logical. Is it any wonder that Squats, Deadlifts, Rowing, Chins and other comparable exercises are the best to include in your training program?

In a forty minute training session that would mean about thirty minutes of direct training on large muscles and ten minutes on others. Some would argue that the entire workout should be spent on the large muscles. In theory I would agree. However, human beings to be indulged if they are to stay interested. And logically it would be almost impossible to demand that a trainee, especially a new one, not spend at least some time working his favorite body part, which could very well be arms.

This is just another way to look at why so many of us are always saying “squat” “Deadlift”.

I would love to hear other points of view.

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Looking at it in light of greatest gains you also need to consider genetics.

That some people can do anything and gain mass, while others can squat and dead (etc) for months and get nothing.

Some can only gain with one body-part - say legs - in only a few minutes a week, while other body parts can be worked near-failure repeatedly for hours a week with no gains, and in some cases even little-to-no signs of stress.

Eating and supplementation probably play a role, too.

But then, to tell a beginner, or sometimes even a stubborn expert, that they need to listen and adapt anything to suit their own body and goals - is that realistic?

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rm slcit,

I agree with most of what you state. However, I have never seen anyone squat and Dead properly, for long periods of time without making progress. As long as the diet was good.

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I am interested in incorporating both the dead and squat in my routine. However, I am confused on where/how to implement the deadlift in to it. Currently I will do squats on leg day (duh). But where do I do deadlifts? On leg day? Wouldn’t that be just a little too much in one day, considering how grueling both exercises are? I have heard people say leg day instead of squat, while some have said do both squat and deads on the same day, others saying doing both on the same day is overtraining, and others say back day.

Just so someone can give me a rough idea of how to implement them here are 2 example routines I see posted in the forums (and elsewhere):

Routine #1
day 1: Legs, Abs
day 2: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps
Day 3: Back, Biceps, Calves

Routine #2
Day 1: Chest, Back
Day 2: Legs, Abs
Day 3: Arms, Shoulders

Would I put deads on back day? Do I replace my precious squat w/ deadlifts? What if I want to change exercises (like Christian suggests in his block program), what can I replace deads with for variety?

These are typical newbie questions I am guessing, and hopefully others can learn from them. I know I am looking forward to hearing from the more knowledgable. As I kinda scratch my head when it comes to designing a routine.

Thanks,
Chris

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Hi Chris,

When I first began I had the same types of questions, so don’t feel bad! it’s a learning process that never ends. To me that’s one of the things that make it so much fun.

As to your question of where to place Deadlifts. I feel that squatting and deadlifting on the same day is a prescription for disaster. Sooner or later you will burn out or, perhaps even injure yourself. Both exercises are hard on the central nervous system and there is some overlap as to what each exercise works.

I do not know your goals or your current condition. If you are trying to gain muscle weight (safe bet-who isn’t?)
I would squat one day per week and deadlift one day per week, not on the same day.

One example could be to squat on Tuesday and deadlift on Saturday. I would put a few days between the two.
Also, deadlift on your back day.

One schedule might look like this:

Monday-Rest
Tuesday-Legs
Wednesday-Rest
Thursday-Chest, Shoulders
Friday-Rest
Saturday-Back, arms
Sunday-Rest (and go to church :))

If you are a beginner I really don’t think you need to do much more than this. Make sure your workouts are brief, no longer than 45 minutes.

(Also, you owe it to yourself to purchase the best protein supplement that money can buy. One that you will take religiously. I think GROW is the best on the market. The taste is great and the quality is very high!

If there is a common thread among beginners, other than what I have stated in my first post, it would be that they do not understand the amount of quality calories that they need to build a first class physique. And if you weigh 150lbs. for example, you need about 150 gms. of protein per day. You just can’t get all that from your meals).

Back on track> Also, use a rep, set scheme that makes sense. You should be able to do 15 to 20 sets during your workout. Personally, I like to train legs with higher reps as the front of the leg muscle, the quadricep, is a slow twitch muscle that will respond better to higher reps 8 to 20 range. Would they grow on less reps? sure, but I think more is better here.

I hope this information helps you out. I can tell you are a sharp person because you are asking good questions! keep asking and read all that you can from the T-Mag website. This really is the best site on the web for helping you attain all of your goals relative to strength and fitness!

Best of luck!

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Read this first

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Zeb great post. I think I may have to take a look over my training. However I don’t have any direct arm work in my workouts currently.

b3bop: You could follow an Ian King routine where he has a quad dominant and a hip dominant day? Which he would generally have you working out 4 days a week. Another idea is have a semi-full body routine. How you do this is work out 3 days a week but have 2 rotating training days. A and B which is just A one workout and B the next and so on. Now on one workout you will have your hip dominant day and a few other upper body exercises etc. Then on day B you will have your quad dominate day and a few other upper body exerciese etc.

Here is an example using just 2 exercises per workout obviously you would add a few more to complete it.

Day A: Deadlift
Chin-ups

Day B: Squat
Bench Press

That should give you a general idea. :slight_smile:

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Hey Thanks Everyone! Excellent Post ZEB. That helps alot.

ArcaneCocaine: I really like that idea of splitting up legs in to two different days. Sounds like fun. Also, working the semi-full body workouts sound interesting to me as well. I will have to give all these ideas a try over time.

ZEB: You assumed right. I am trying to add a little muscle. But I am not a newbie to training and nutrition. Been doing it for a while. I am 23, but very very short, barely over 5ft (I like to say I am vertically challenged). Little on the skinny side I am too, but I am working on that (aren’t we all) :wink: Hence why I ask how I can add those deadlifts in to my workout.

I really have not been up to speed on the latest training/supplements ever since Muscle Media 2k turned into BFL. Canceled ASAP, and have not picked up anything since. Just found T-Mag about 1 month or so ago.

One question about Quad vs Hip dominant leg workouts. Is there a link/article that will explain what exercises are good for both days? I assume Squats, Leg Press, Front Squats, Lunges, etc… Are quad dominant exercises. While Deadlifts, as you imply are hip dominant. However, what other exercises could I add to a hip dominant day? I will do some searching, but I thought I might ask while I am posting this since you guys have helped so much so far.

Thanks,
Chris

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Being short is also and advantage in the deadlift and squat. More reason to make them your staple lifts. :slight_smile:

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Chris,

Being short never held back Franco Columbo or Lee LaBrada. Who else? Come on help me out.

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I never said being short was bad. Just kinda an fyi (i.e. I am not 150lbs ;).

Thanks again everyone.

Chris

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Oh wait! that was suppose to say not 150lbs yet :wink:

Chris

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ZEB:

My problem is the opposite though. I can squat and dead for a total of 20 minutes a week and make great gains. I can do anything with my shoulders and the going is real slow… years even

My own warped genetics I guess.

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Chris,

Don’t be so quick to blame genetics! What have you been doing for your shoulders? I would like specific exercises, sets, reps and any rep rhythm you have been using.

Secondly, what are your exact goals for your body?

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Great thread ZEB!
You make some valid points that many “lifters” never THINK about. The majority of the people I see in my gym are just the opposite of your thoughts. Amazingly enough, they never change. It baffles the mind how one can go through years of training and not change anything in their routine.

T-men/Vixens know better…

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I never said anything about gentics or shoulders. I think you were meaning to address that message to rm_slcit.

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b3bop,

Right you are!

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OK everyone here is a routine I came up given the information you guys have given me. Let me know what needs to be done to fix it up. This is my first time coming with my own routine not out of a magazine or from someone else.

Day 1 - Quad Dominant
Squats
Hack Squats
Lunges

Day 2 - Chest, Back
Bench Press
Incline DB Press
Chin-ups
Straight-Arm Rows

Day 3 - Shoulders, Arms
Standing DB Press
Lateral Raises
Incline DB Curls
Hammer Curls
Dips
Lying EZ-Bar Extensions

Day 4 - Hip Dominant
Power Cleans
Deadlifts
Romainian/Stiff-Legged Deadlifts

Not sure when the best time would be to calves and abs. Also, is this a good split? Anyone have suggestions to fix this up? I plan on following Christian’s Block Recommendations. That Shoulder, Arm day has alot of exercises. Wish there was a way to fix that up.

All help, suggestions, criticism is appreciated. Just trying to learn as go here.

Thanks,
Chris

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I am kinda wondering too, how I could turn this into a Lower Body/Upper Body Split routine working out 4 times a week? Do I just chuck the shoulder and arm work?

Chris

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Some of the exercises orders look a bit off. On arm day I would super set antagonistic(sp) muscles. When are your rest days? Also your order of workouts is suspect.

I would go:

Monday: Quad dominant workout

Tuesday: Chest& back

Thursday: Hip dominant workout

Friday: Shoulders and arms

I would do lunges before hack squats(if it’s machine hack squats). If it’s barbell hack squats then the order is fine. I would ditch some of the arm work on arm day and add in my calves and abs. Or I would ad in just abs and add in some calf work on each leg day. Otherwise looks good. :slight_smile: