A Large Man's Pullup Dilemma

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’ve always thought pull-ups are a superior movement for the majority of trainees. twojarslave isn’t a bodybuilder from what I remember. He’s a gym rat like the majority of us. [/quote]

…and in the same way that full ROM squats are superior to leg press I agree. Just as there are a number of mobility issues that interfere with the effectiveness of squats, issues with the scapula, sternum, and shoulder mobility impact pull/chin up execution. I’m not arguing against the idea of getting better at chin/pull ups, however reducing/abandoning the ‘pulldown’ movement before one is able to achive sufficent volume may be short-sighted.

22

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?

Am I at the point now where the lat pull-down offers no advantage other than familiarity?

I forgot to mention that my goal is to lose fat and retain my strength or, ideally, get stronger in the process. Overall health and well-being is my long-term goal.

Plus I just want to be able to do more pullups. The lat pull-down is the only machine I use as a core exercise. I don’t have any problem with machines as training tools, but the prospect of training my major movements with just a barbell and bodyweight has a certain purity that appeals to my current strength training ethos.

Thanks again.[/quote]

So, you have three goals:

  1. Lose fat;
  2. Get stronger;
  3. Be able to do pullups because they’re ‘purer’ than their ‘machine’ equivalents.

Which of these three goals is not like the others? That is, upon reflection, which is not really worth devoting a great deal of time and attention to?

As you shed weight and get stronger, the pullups will come. No need to risk injury forcing the issue. Best of luck.

PS As an aside, I don’t consider the lat-pulldown station a ‘machine.’ It is simply an uncambered pulley that reroutes resistance into a direction that is convenient. It provides no assistance, and does not alter the strength curve of the movement in any way.

23

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’ve always thought pull-ups are a superior movement for the majority of trainees. twojarslave isn’t a bodybuilder from what I remember. He’s a gym rat like the majority of us. [/quote]

…and in the same way that full ROM squats are superior to leg press I agree. Just as there are a number of mobility issues that interfere with the effectiveness of squats, issues with the scapula, sternum, and shoulder mobility impact pull/chin up execution. I’m not arguing against the idea of getting better at chin/pull ups, however reducing/abandoning the ‘pulldown’ movement before one is able to achive sufficent volume may be short-sighted. [/quote]

I agree, he shouldn’t arbitrarily abandon the pull down.

24

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?

Am I at the point now where the lat pull-down offers no advantage other than familiarity?

I forgot to mention that my goal is to lose fat and retain my strength or, ideally, get stronger in the process. Overall health and well-being is my long-term goal.

Plus I just want to be able to do more pullups. The lat pull-down is the only machine I use as a core exercise. I don’t have any problem with machines as training tools, but the prospect of training my major movements with just a barbell and bodyweight has a certain purity that appeals to my current strength training ethos.

Thanks again.[/quote]

So, you have three goals:

  1. Lose fat;
  2. Get stronger;
  3. Be able to do pullups because they’re ‘purer’ than their ‘machine’ equivalents.

Which of these three goals is not like the others? That is, upon reflection, which is not really worth devoting a great deal of time and attention to?

As you shed weight and get stronger, the pullups will come. No need to risk injury forcing the issue. Best of luck.

PS As an aside, I don’t consider the lat-pulldown station a ‘machine.’ It is simply an uncambered pulley that reroutes resistance into a direction that is convenient. It provides no assistance, and does not alter the strength curve of the movement in any way. [/quote]

I like your style.

I really only have major two goals. Lose fat and retain or gain strength. I have many other smaller goals within the context of those two larger goals, one of which is simply getting better at pullups. My relative success or failure at doing more pullups will have very little impact on my larger goals, so I think of it as a side-project and a subject of curiosity for me as I continue to have fun with self-improvement and lifting.

I was expecting to get lots of meat to chew on by posting this dilemma here, and have not been disappointed. I really appreciate all of the different perspectives everyone is sharing here.

25

OP -

Even 5 pounds of extra body weight makes a difference in my pullups. I’m sure it’s not as dramatic for most men, since you guys have so much more upper body strength. You will frequently see tiny 80 pound junior high girls who have nice pullups, and then they loose them as they mature. They aren’t getting weaker. I have some nice pullups, mostly because I’m small. It’s a huge advantage in body weight movements. :slight_smile:

Priority one is drop weight. And while you’re loosing, work on getting some really good lat activation. That’s been a problem for me.

Also, as my bench press improves, so do my pullups. If you want pullups you have to train them, but they are related to your other lifts. At least that’s been my experience.

26

For the folks that don’t get why pull-ups are a big deal… I’m guessing they were skinny kids.

It goes back to when we were little fat kids in gym class going for our presidential medal of whatever to do arnold proud. Year after year, we’d go up, pull, and not even get close.

Then, years later, we finally get our focus right, get a little strength, and we FINALLY achieve the minimal milestone from primary school. You finally accomplish what’s been engrained as a goal since you were in 3rd grade and you get a little excited… and want to do it a bunch.

27

Curbing childhood insecurity is a good reason to visit a psychiatrist, not a gym.

28

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Curbing childhood insecurity is a good reason to visit a psychiatrist, not a gym. [/quote]

Shit the gym is a psychiatrist, a cheap one at that.

29

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Curbing childhood insecurity is a good reason to visit a psychiatrist, not a gym. [/quote]

Shit the gym is a psychiatrist, a cheap one at that. [/quote]

I’ll second that. Emphatically.

I believe that overcoming your past is as good of a reason as any to visit a gym. Whether one is trying to overcome some form of childhood insecurity or years poor lifestyle choices as an adult doesn’t really matter. The barbell has much to offer both.

Plus it is really starting to get fun for me. I love this shit.

30

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
I thought your primary goal was weight loss, and secondary goal was getting better at the big 3?

Since you describe your current weight as 280, which was what it was a month ago, it appears you are not making progress on your primary goal. Have you considered how much easier pull-ups will be if you focus on your primary goal?

How are your big 3 coming? Not trying to bust your balls, but you may be suffering from the dreaded beginner’s boredom/fantasy disease, where once newbie gains slow down the trainee begins to seek out other arbitrary goals like getting good at pull ups for no particular reason at all.

If you are still committed to your goals, I can assure you there are many top tier powerlifters who never do pull-ups. There are no mandatory exercises. If you really want to get better at pull-ups, then go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if you are doing it because you think you “have to” be good at pull-ups, then please reconsider.[/quote]

My goals have not changed, so this particular dilemma is being confronted in that context. The pullup dillema is, all things considered, a minor crossroad for me since being able to actually do a pullup is a new development for me.

My weight has held steady the last five weeks or so, but I have been making gains on the big 3 as well as my front squat, so I consider that progress. I also need to get better at dieting. And better at not going to the bar to watch playoff hockey and having weeknight beers. And better at a lot of other stuff too, but that is a whole other thread.

Thanks for the insight![/quote]

If you weigh 280 and weight loss is your #1 goal then you need to seriously address your diet. Saying your weight “held steady” is another way of saying you have failed at fat loss for the last 5 weeks. So what is holding you back? Diet takes takes more discipline than getting to the gym and working out. It sounds like your progress on the Big 3 is a way for you to pat yourself on the back and compensate for your failure on the diet.

This is not intended to be mean in any way, but just a kick in the butt to get serious with what you claim is your #1 goal.

31

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
I thought your primary goal was weight loss, and secondary goal was getting better at the big 3?

Since you describe your current weight as 280, which was what it was a month ago, it appears you are not making progress on your primary goal. Have you considered how much easier pull-ups will be if you focus on your primary goal?

How are your big 3 coming? Not trying to bust your balls, but you may be suffering from the dreaded beginner’s boredom/fantasy disease, where once newbie gains slow down the trainee begins to seek out other arbitrary goals like getting good at pull ups for no particular reason at all.

If you are still committed to your goals, I can assure you there are many top tier powerlifters who never do pull-ups. There are no mandatory exercises. If you really want to get better at pull-ups, then go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if you are doing it because you think you “have to” be good at pull-ups, then please reconsider.[/quote]

My goals have not changed, so this particular dilemma is being confronted in that context. The pullup dillema is, all things considered, a minor crossroad for me since being able to actually do a pullup is a new development for me.

My weight has held steady the last five weeks or so, but I have been making gains on the big 3 as well as my front squat, so I consider that progress. I also need to get better at dieting. And better at not going to the bar to watch playoff hockey and having weeknight beers. And better at a lot of other stuff too, but that is a whole other thread.

Thanks for the insight![/quote]

If you weigh 280 and weight loss is your #1 goal then you need to seriously address your diet. Saying your weight “held steady” is another way of saying you have failed at fat loss for the last 5 weeks. So what is holding you back? Diet takes takes more discipline than getting to the gym and working out. It sounds like your progress on the Big 3 is a way for you to pat yourself on the back and compensate for your failure on the diet.

This is not intended to be mean in any way, but just a kick in the butt to get serious with what you claim is your #1 goal.[/quote]

What’s holding me back?

A lifetime of bad eating habits, playoff hockey, beer during the week and not executing my diet plan. I certainly know what I need to be doing, so I can’t claim ignorance.

The last 5 months have been like this for me. I’ll go through periods of stagnation on weight loss, lose a pound here, lose a pound there, but strength continues to build the entire time and I have not been gaining weight. You’re right, however, in that I am not crushing my fat loss goals right now. In my defense, I am trending in a good direction and have been for over a year now, plus I am having lots of fun with the whole process.

If I was as consistent in the kitchen as I am in the weight room I’d be at sub 15% BF and on a serious bulk right now. I just need to improve. I suppose I should start with logging my bodyweight in addition to my workouts on my log.

I never mind a little kick in the ass. Thanks!

32

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
For the folks that don’t get why pull-ups are a big deal… I’m guessing they were skinny kids.

It goes back to when we were little fat kids in gym class going for our presidential medal of whatever to do arnold proud. Year after year, we’d go up, pull, and not even get close.

Then, years later, we finally get our focus right, get a little strength, and we FINALLY achieve the minimal milestone from primary school. You finally accomplish what’s been engrained as a goal since you were in 3rd grade and you get a little excited… and want to do it a bunch.[/quote]

Yes.

33

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
The last 5 months have been like this for me. I’ll go through periods of stagnation on weight loss, lose a pound here, lose a pound there, but strength continues to build the entire time and I have not been gaining weight. You’re right, however, in that I am not crushing my fat loss goals right now. In my defense, I am trending in a good direction and have been for over a year now, plus I am having lots of fun with the whole process.[/quote]

Despite some of the grief you’re taking in this thread for not crushing your fat lass goals, I see nothing wrong with this pattern. You have very good self-awareness; you’re not wailing away about a lack of progress, and you have been doing something which IS strongly advocated, which is focus on slow, steady, sustainable steps to improvement rather than throwing the kitchen sink at your fat loss goals ALL AT ONCE.

You know what to do, and since you’ve already lost 40+ pounds, the initial “whoosh” is gone, so now your weight loss will likely be more like a few pounds here, a brief stall, then a few pounds there for a while. Keep up the excellent work in the weight room and keep yourself honest on the diet and beer consumption; I expect a few more pounds will melt away easily once the hockey playoffs end :slight_smile:

34

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
The last 5 months have been like this for me. I’ll go through periods of stagnation on weight loss, lose a pound here, lose a pound there, but strength continues to build the entire time and I have not been gaining weight. You’re right, however, in that I am not crushing my fat loss goals right now. In my defense, I am trending in a good direction and have been for over a year now, plus I am having lots of fun with the whole process.[/quote]

Despite some of the grief you’re taking in this thread for not crushing your fat lass goals, I see nothing wrong with this pattern. You have very good self-awareness; you’re not wailing away about a lack of progress, and you have been doing something which IS strongly advocated, which is focus on slow, steady, sustainable steps to improvement rather than throwing the kitchen sink at your fat loss goals ALL AT ONCE.

You know what to do, and since you’ve already lost 40+ pounds, the initial “whoosh” is gone, so now your weight loss will likely be more like a few pounds here, a brief stall, then a few pounds there for a while. Keep up the excellent work in the weight room and keep yourself honest on the diet and beer consumption; I expect a few more pounds will melt away easily once the hockey playoffs end :)[/quote]

I’m working on it. I’m not spending time on this website looking to be coddled or told that trans fats, fast food corporations or genetically modified foods are responsible for my prodigious gut. That said, I secretly suspect that breweries are putting some type of addictive substance in their beer that makes me want to drink it.

Thanks for following me around and dropping all of these nuggets of wisdom in my path.

35

If you’re that heavy, and can only do 1 Pullup, I’d honestly work on lat pulldowns with full ROM and proper form before trying to do Pullups.

BCT mentioned all the aspects that make a good pullup, like shoulder mobility and scapular retraction. Doing shitty pullups aren’t going to make you good at pull-ups, and honestly with you being heavier I wouldn’t want to get sloppy with them at all. I’d work on lat pulldowns with proper form until you lose more weight, and eventually you’ll be able to knock out a few pull-ups with good form. And like EyeDentist said, lat pulldowns are cables, which are basically free weights with resistance coming from a different angle.

Few would suggest just doing negatives or multiple singles with your 1RM on Squats or something, so idk why it’s different with pull-ups.

36

I did some pullups at the end of my impromptu workout yesterday. I could do 1 wide-grip pronated (hands at the extreme ends of the curved pullup bar on the cable machine) and 3 medium-grip pronated pullups (hands shoulder-width apart). Okay, maybe more like 2.5 medium-grip pronated pullups. I did a few sets of 2-3 and I can definitely feel it today. It feels like… victory.

Getting stronger hasn’t been a problem for me in my first year of lifting, so have decided to keep my lat PD’s programmed on the same day I have been doing them to make sure I get good volume and continued progression. I will add various pullup variations on my other two days so I might revel in my glorious ability to actually do them now, plus continue getting stronger and more fit. These will be done at the end of my workouts so I do not compromise my work on the main lifts of the day.

If anyone is curious about what I’m up to in the weight room, you can see it here:

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your perspectives on this issue. I really appreciate it when experienced lifters take the time to share their thoughts with us newbs.

37

And I apologize if I sounded like a jerk. I was trying to point out that pullups are not so impressive in small people, and become next to impossible when people are heavier. I wasn’t trying to be rude by pointing out that some junior high kids (who obviously can’t squat anywhere near 365) have pullups. Pullups are still super taxing for me.

38

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
And I apologize if I sounded like a jerk. I was trying to point out that pullups are not so impressive in small people, and become next to impossible when people are heavier. I wasn’t trying to be rude by pointing out that some junior high kids (who obviously can’t squat anywhere near 365) have pullups. Pullups are still super taxing for me. [/quote]

I totally understood what you were saying.

We had a high-level gymnast in my school who competed at the national level. Pullup day in PE class was her time to shine, and she made us all look weak. If I recall correctly she was asked to stop due to time constraints.

39

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
And I apologize if I sounded like a jerk. I was trying to point out that pullups are not so impressive in small people, and become next to impossible when people are heavier. I wasn’t trying to be rude by pointing out that some junior high kids (who obviously can’t squat anywhere near 365) have pullups. Pullups are still super taxing for me. [/quote]

I totally understood what you were saying.

We had a high-level gymnast in my school who competed at the national level. Pullup day in PE class was her time to shine, and she made us all look weak. If I recall correctly she was asked to stop due to time constraints. [/quote]

Epic flame war averted.

40

I’m going to start out by saying that I love doing pull ups but I have a few suggestions and also complaints about them.

Complaints:
1.I have a massive strength drop off after my first work set that I don’t experience with lat pulldown variations unless I take a huge rest period.
2. I have a harder time actually getting back development out of them, I mostly just got better at doing pull ups

Advice if you’re going to do them:
-Training volume is literally the most important thing. If you want to do a lot of pull ups you need to be doing 3-4 sets of them every time you do them or don’t bother.
-Don’t be fat. I can do well over 20 most days and I don’t prioritize them in training anymore. I only weigh ~165 pounds.

I do 1 set of pullups at the beginning of my back day and get around 20-25 reps. When I did 3-4 sets every 4 days I was in the low 30s for my first set, and usually added a little weight after that.