A Krav Maga Class?

Training
41

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.

Of course. This is why I say that striking is the most important part of fighting- if you can do it, you’ll end the fight in three shots before it’s even got the chance to get to the ground.

Why use a bayonet when you can use the artillery and get him from long range?[/quote]

I think you make some great points but it depends on the situation. Whilst I am not exactly clueless standing up I would be very unlikely to throw a punch in a fight because I would be worried about breaking a hand (elbows and knees are a different matter.)

Also, if someone is causing trouble it is nice to have the option to just control them instead of risking problems with the police when they turn up and find you standing over someone who is bloodied up and out cold.

Someone posted on a different thread about a situation where their brother in law was drunk and being a dick at a family party. Instead of ending up with the two of them duking it out on the front lawn, he controlled the guy and put him to sleep. They then put the guy in a comfy chair and let him sleep it off. Whent he guy woke up he appologised for being a dick.

42

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

Not picking a fight here but I’d disagree. I, much like you, come from a heavy background in boxing, and I do love the sport. But for the average dude, to develop that kind of knockout power under stress takes a good year or so of dedication. The thing that amazed me about BJJ though, was how easy it was to pick up and learn. That being said though, I’m starting to play around with a theory that certain people may find striking more natural and others find wrestling/grappling natural.

For me, while boxing was great, I really had to develop skill through countless spars before I was getting anywhere near decent with my mitts. BJJ on the other hand, within the first or second lesson I was picking up skillsets and was able to apply what I learnt.

That may be true… maybe there is a certain predisposition to certain types.

But let me tell you something- if you want to grapple or wrestle in the street, you’re an idiot. You have to know it, of course, just in case, but it should always, ALWAYS be the last option to go to the ground.

There’s a bloodstain in the pavement outside the bar I was at last night from a guy that got into it with the bouncers. I watched him get tossed, and watched his head slam into the pavement and knock him cold. Then the stain started flowing… and the cops, the ambulances… I keep watching the newspaper’s website to see if he died. I might have watched a guy get killed last night in a bar fight. It’s kind of crazy.

This is what people don’t understand- your take down could be beautiful and perfect, but if you fuck it up and drive yourself into the ground, it’s not like a fuckin wrestling mat- the curb don’t give.

I just think it’s unwise. [/quote]

There are plenty of people who die from their head cracking the pavement after being punched as well.

Personally I would guess that I better learn to stay on my feet in my BJJ class than someone would in a boxing class.

That said, as I have mentioned before. Train because you enjoy it. The best way to avoid a street fight is by not being a dick.

43

[quote]edn wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:
Not picking a fight here but I’d disagree. I, much like you, come from a heavy background in boxing, and I do love the sport. But for the average dude, to develop that kind of knockout power under stress takes a good year or so of dedication. The thing that amazed me about BJJ though, was how easy it was to pick up and learn. That being said though, I’m starting to play around with a theory that certain people may find striking more natural and others find wrestling/grappling natural.

For me, while boxing was great, I really had to develop skill through countless spars before I was getting anywhere near decent with my mitts. BJJ on the other hand, within the first or second lesson I was picking up skillsets and was able to apply what I learnt.

For me it’s completely the other way round! I find boxing much more natural than BJJ so I suppose you have to try things and see what works for you. That’s why I would be inclined to go for wrestling rather than BJJ - it’s simpler and more direct and for me that makes it more applicable. As a first resort though I would always go for a striking style - lots of fights may end up on the ground in a scramble but many more start standing up with punches. And that’s ignoring the fact that purring yourself on the ground is pretty much painting a target on your face for all your opponents friends - or any bystander who wants to have a go. That being said you ignore grappling at your peril - if you do get into a fight then you will need to use grappling skills at some point.[/quote]

Why is it never the BJJ guy that has friends who will put the boot in? Do they all travel the earth on a personal adventure like the dude in Kung Fu?

44

[quote]jarc wrote:
If the OP wants self defense why would he go with BJJ or wrestling to start with? I guess I am pretty lucky. I just started Krav Maga but that comes with BJJ also. It is actually pretty cool, I do Krav on Monday, BJJ and Krav on Teusday and then on Friday is a boxing/fighting/mma fundamental type training.

I suggest a stand up fighting style to the OP. If he later wants to learn the ground game he can go with BJJ or wrestling but remember his question was Self Defense, not competition fighting. Self Defense means kick total ass and then get the eff outta there.

[/quote]

No, self defence means avoid a situation where you will get into a confrontation. Once in a confrontation use bodylanguage and voice to control and de-escalate the situation. Ensure that you understand the legal implications of the situation you are in, if it does come to a physical altercation look to end the fight as quickly as possible, ideally without causing visible damage to the other guy as the punishment for two guys fighting is a crapshoot if it gets in front of a judge.

Note that if you are trained in a martial art then judges will typically see you as the agressor.

45

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.

Of course. This is why I say that striking is the most important part of fighting- if you can do it, you’ll end the fight in three shots before it’s even got the chance to get to the ground.

Why use a bayonet when you can use the artillery and get him from long range?

I think you make some great points but it depends on the situation. Whilst I am not exactly clueless standing up I would be very unlikely to throw a punch in a fight because I would be worried about breaking a hand (elbows and knees are a different matter.)

Also, if someone is causing trouble it is nice to have the option to just control them instead of risking problems with the police when they turn up and find you standing over someone who is bloodied up and out cold.

Someone posted on a different thread about a situation where their brother in law was drunk and being a dick at a family party. Instead of ending up with the two of them duking it out on the front lawn, he controlled the guy and put him to sleep. They then put the guy in a comfy chair and let him sleep it off. Whent he guy woke up he appologised for being a dick.[/quote]

I agree, but remember that that situation isn’t “self defense”. It would far more likely be called simple assault. But yes, in situations like that where you don’t want to hurt the guy, BJJ is excellent.

But a self-defense situation is not like that. A fight? Yes, to a certain level- i.e. if you know the person, or they’re severely drunk and you’re not. But Self-defense? No.

And the point about the hands is true, too. It’s certainly always a chance you take.

And I agree with your other posts as well about deescalation and everything. Often completely overlooked. And not being a dick is a big plus.

46

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.

Of course. This is why I say that striking is the most important part of fighting- if you can do it, you’ll end the fight in three shots before it’s even got the chance to get to the ground.

Why use a bayonet when you can use the artillery and get him from long range?

I think you make some great points but it depends on the situation. Whilst I am not exactly clueless standing up I would be very unlikely to throw a punch in a fight because I would be worried about breaking a hand (elbows and knees are a different matter.)

Also, if someone is causing trouble it is nice to have the option to just control them instead of risking problems with the police when they turn up and find you standing over someone who is bloodied up and out cold.

Someone posted on a different thread about a situation where their brother in law was drunk and being a dick at a family party. Instead of ending up with the two of them duking it out on the front lawn, he controlled the guy and put him to sleep. They then put the guy in a comfy chair and let him sleep it off. Whent he guy woke up he appologised for being a dick.

I agree, but remember that that situation isn’t “self defense”. It would far more likely be called simple assault. But yes, in situations like that where you don’t want to hurt the guy, BJJ is excellent.

But a self-defense situation is not like that. A fight? Yes, to a certain level- i.e. if you know the person, or they’re severely drunk and you’re not. But Self-defense? No.

And the point about the hands is true, too. It’s certainly always a chance you take.

And I agree with your other posts as well about deescalation and everything. Often completely overlooked. And not being a dick is a big plus. [/quote]

Absolutely, knowing the appropriate level of force that a situation calls for and being skilled in a variety of skill sets is obviously the best way to go if that’s an option.

Being able to subdue or control someone using joint locks, chokes, controls and the like are an excellent choice for situations that call for a lesser level of force. Strikes to vital targets, slams, and being able to quickly and efficiently convert joint locks into breaks (along with other more primal techniques) are better suited to more serious situations.

As far as worrying about breaking your hands, I’d probably suggest using palm strikes to the head and only using fists to hit the body (unless you’re certain that you are going to hit your target). Palm strikes have a lot more margin for error and are much less likely to leave you with a broken hand if you hit something solid (like the top of their head, elbows, etc…).

I know that I would never throw punches from a mounted position (like is common in MMA) for this same reason. If the guy bridges at the wrong time, or slips your punch, etc… you are going to break your hand(s) on the pavement. Palms won’t have nearly as much risk of that happening.

Even elbows have to be slightly modified if throwing them on pavement (not necessarily in a standing position, but striking on the ground from certain positions). Lots of “G n P” guys like to throw backwards elbows from a side control position (Hughes and Couture come to mind).

Again, problem is that if you’re on pavement and the guy bridges at the right time, you’re going to break your olecranon process right off as your elbow point smashes into the ground. So, to prevent this you’ve gotta slightly alter the angle of your backwards elbow strikes (easier to show in person than to explain), which will allow you to simply base with that hand if your opponent bridges.

If you never practice on pavement/gravel/any other “unfriendly/unforgiving” surfaces other than mats you’ll never understand a lot of the little adjustments/intricacies that are needed when you fight in such environments (or what techniques might be appropriate/inappropriate for different situations).

If you are truly serious about real world self defense, then don’t neglect including the environmental factors that might go along with it (like weather, different surfaces, lighting, furniture, etc…).

47

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Absolutely, knowing the appropriate level of force that a situation calls for and being skilled in a variety of skill sets is obviously the best way to go if that’s an option.

Being able to subdue or control someone using joint locks, chokes, controls and the like are an excellent choice for situations that call for a lesser level of force. Strikes to vital targets, slams, and being able to quickly and efficiently convert joint locks into breaks (along with other more primal techniques) are better suited to more serious situations.

As far as worrying about breaking your hands, I’d probably suggest using palm strikes to the head and only using fists to hit the body (unless you’re certain that you are going to hit your target). Palm strikes have a lot more margin for error and are much less likely to leave you with a broken hand if you hit something solid (like the top of their head, elbows, etc…).

I know that I would never throw punches from a mounted position (like is common in MMA) for this same reason. If the guy bridges at the wrong time, or slips your punch, etc… you are going to break your hand(s) on the pavement. Palms won’t have nearly as much risk of that happening.

Even elbows have to be slightly modified if throwing them on pavement (not necessarily in a standing position, but striking on the ground from certain positions). Lots of “G n P” guys like to throw backwards elbows from a side control position (Hughes and Couture come to mind).

Again, problem is that if you’re on pavement and the guy bridges at the right time, you’re going to break your olecranon process right off as your elbow point smashes into the ground. So, to prevent this you’ve gotta slightly alter the angle of your backwards elbow strikes (easier to show in person than to explain), which will allow you to simply base with that hand if your opponent bridges.

If you never practice on pavement/gravel/any other “unfriendly/unforgiving” surfaces other than mats you’ll never understand a lot of the little adjustments/intricacies that are needed when you fight in such environments (or what techniques might be appropriate/inappropriate for different situations).

If you are truly serious about real world self defense, then don’t neglect including the environmental factors that might go along with it (like weather, different surfaces, lighting, furniture, etc…).[/quote]

Completely agree.

The palm truly is an overlooked surface- harder than hell and distributes impact much better than four little pieces of bone coming out the top of your hand.

I think I said that in another thread- I would avoid throwing straight lefts at someone’s jaw for two reasons: 1) The jaw is a piece of bone shaped like an “A”- which means its pretty goddamn strong. 2) If you cut your hand on someone’s teeth or in their mouth, blood poisoning (I think that’s the term) is a serious concern. The bacteria that can get into a cut can give you a serious infection that can quickly kill you.

Kevin Weeks, the former #2 in the Boston Irish mob, had this happen to him during one of his “adventures” with Whitey Bulger. Weeks, being a former boxer, sliced his hand while hitting someone in the mouth, and became seriously ill from the resulting infection.

However, I will still throw hooks- hitting the jaw from the side is powerful, and can not only KO the person, but also break or dislocate their jaw if their mouth is open (ala talking shit). Any jabs or straights would I aim at eye sockets, although, as I’ve said, motherfuckers move at the wrong time and you can still bust your hand.

And the weather was an interesting thing- living in a cold weather area, hitting something solid when your hands are frozen hurts so much more than hitting someone in the summer time its remarkable.

This is why awareness is always foremost- knowing what, and who, are around you.

48

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
jarc wrote:
If the OP wants self defense why would he go with BJJ or wrestling to start with? I guess I am pretty lucky. I just started Krav Maga but that comes with BJJ also. It is actually pretty cool, I do Krav on Monday, BJJ and Krav on Teusday and then on Friday is a boxing/fighting/mma fundamental type training.

I suggest a stand up fighting style to the OP. If he later wants to learn the ground game he can go with BJJ or wrestling but remember his question was Self Defense, not competition fighting. Self Defense means kick total ass and then get the eff outta there.

No, self defence means avoid a situation where you will get into a confrontation. Once in a confrontation use bodylanguage and voice to control and de-escalate the situation. Ensure that you understand the legal implications of the situation you are in, if it does come to a physical altercation look to end the fight as quickly as possible, ideally without causing visible damage to the other guy as the punishment for two guys fighting is a crapshoot if it gets in front of a judge.

Note that if you are trained in a martial art then judges will typically see you as the agressor.[/quote]

Okay…Yes you are right. Just stay away from those places and people that will likely put in in a bad situation. That is number 1. Number 2 is to de escalate the situation. Of course most people that take self defense classses are taking them in case of that chance that number 1 and 2 don’t work and someone takes a punch or kick or choke or whatever at you…In that case protect you and yours and then move on and call 911 to inform them of a dick laying on the ground bleeding.

49

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree, but remember that that situation isn’t “self defense”. It would far more likely be called simple assault. But yes, in situations like that where you don’t want to hurt the guy, BJJ is excellent.

But a self-defense situation is not like that. A fight? Yes, to a certain level- i.e. if you know the person, or they’re severely drunk and you’re not. But Self-defense? No.

And the point about the hands is true, too. It’s certainly always a chance you take.

And I agree with your other posts as well about deescalation and everything. Often completely overlooked. And not being a dick is a big plus. [/quote]

Yeah, I know this example is different from the norm, it’s just as someone who has been training martial arts for a fair few years now I have seen far too many guys turn up at a gym wanting to learn self defence because they keep getting in fights.

Unless you are a prison guard or in law enforcement or something like that, if you keep getting in fights my first piece of advice would be ‘stop being such a dick’ second might well be ‘reasess whether the circle of people that you are spending time with are really friends’

As for the hands thing, if I actually thought I would ever get in a street fight again in my life (has been about 5 years since the last one) I would spend time doing Iron Hands type training and punching bags with no gloves or wraps.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Absolutely, knowing the appropriate level of force that a situation calls for and being skilled in a variety of skill sets is obviously the best way to go if that’s an option.

Being able to subdue or control someone using joint locks, chokes, controls and the like are an excellent choice for situations that call for a lesser level of force. Strikes to vital targets, slams, and being able to quickly and efficiently convert joint locks into breaks (along with other more primal techniques) are better suited to more serious situations.

As far as worrying about breaking your hands, I’d probably suggest using palm strikes to the head and only using fists to hit the body (unless you’re certain that you are going to hit your target). Palm strikes have a lot more margin for error and are much less likely to leave you with a broken hand if you hit something solid (like the top of their head, elbows, etc…).

I know that I would never throw punches from a mounted position (like is common in MMA) for this same reason. If the guy bridges at the wrong time, or slips your punch, etc… you are going to break your hand(s) on the pavement. Palms won’t have nearly as much risk of that happening.

Even elbows have to be slightly modified if throwing them on pavement (not necessarily in a standing position, but striking on the ground from certain positions). Lots of “G n P” guys like to throw backwards elbows from a side control position (Hughes and Couture come to mind).

Again, problem is that if you’re on pavement and the guy bridges at the right time, you’re going to break your olecranon process right off as your elbow point smashes into the ground. So, to prevent this you’ve gotta slightly alter the angle of your backwards elbow strikes (easier to show in person than to explain), which will allow you to simply base with that hand if your opponent bridges.

If you never practice on pavement/gravel/any other “unfriendly/unforgiving” surfaces other than mats you’ll never understand a lot of the little adjustments/intricacies that are needed when you fight in such environments (or what techniques might be appropriate/inappropriate for different situations).

If you are truly serious about real world self defense, then don’t neglect including the environmental factors that might go along with it (like weather, different surfaces, lighting, furniture, etc…).

Completely agree.

The palm truly is an overlooked surface- harder than hell and distributes impact much better than four little pieces of bone coming out the top of your hand.

I think I said that in another thread- I would avoid throwing straight lefts at someone’s jaw for two reasons: 1) The jaw is a piece of bone shaped like an “A”- which means its pretty goddamn strong. 2) If you cut your hand on someone’s teeth or in their mouth, blood poisoning (I think that’s the term) is a serious concern. The bacteria that can get into a cut can give you a serious infection that can quickly kill you.

Kevin Weeks, the former #2 in the Boston Irish mob, had this happen to him during one of his “adventures” with Whitey Bulger. Weeks, being a former boxer, sliced his hand while hitting someone in the mouth, and became seriously ill from the resulting infection.

However, I will still throw hooks- hitting the jaw from the side is powerful, and can not only KO the person, but also break or dislocate their jaw if their mouth is open (ala talking shit). Any jabs or straights would I aim at eye sockets, although, as I’ve said, motherfuckers move at the wrong time and you can still bust your hand.

And the weather was an interesting thing- living in a cold weather area, hitting something solid when your hands are frozen hurts so much more than hitting someone in the summer time its remarkable.

This is why awareness is always foremost- knowing what, and who, are around you.[/quote]

There is also the good old Bitch Slap technique for when you want people to talk about how you totally owned someone.

If you can floor someone with a bitch slap, they will possibly never go out in public again!

51

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I agree, but remember that that situation isn’t “self defense”. It would far more likely be called simple assault. But yes, in situations like that where you don’t want to hurt the guy, BJJ is excellent.

But a self-defense situation is not like that. A fight? Yes, to a certain level- i.e. if you know the person, or they’re severely drunk and you’re not. But Self-defense? No.

And the point about the hands is true, too. It’s certainly always a chance you take.

And I agree with your other posts as well about deescalation and everything. Often completely overlooked. And not being a dick is a big plus.

Yeah, I know this example is different from the norm, it’s just as someone who has been training martial arts for a fair few years now I have seen far too many guys turn up at a gym wanting to learn self defence because they keep getting in fights.

Unless you are a prison guard or in law enforcement or something like that, if you keep getting in fights my first piece of advice would be ‘stop being such a dick’ second might well be ‘reasess whether the circle of people that you are spending time with are really friends’

As for the hands thing, if I actually thought I would ever get in a street fight again in my life (has been about 5 years since the last one) I would spend time doing Iron Hands type training and punching bags with no gloves or wraps.

[/quote]

Iron palm would be interesting to learn, but I don’t really think it’s all that necessary. If you know how to generate maximal impact with your fist, doing so with your palms is pretty easy. Palm strikes can also very quickly and easily transition into raking type motions, eye or nerve attacks, grabs, etc…

As far as hitting bags with no gloves or wraps, I often do that, in fact I first learned to punch without gloves or wraps. I like gloves for the conditioning aspect (like holding 1lb weights in your hands the whole time),

but feel it’s also important to learn how to correctly punch without them (same as wraps) as that will teach you whether you are actually hitting with the correct part of the hand, aligning your bone structure correctly, learning how to relax your musculature so as not to take shock back into your body, etc…

Wraps as similar in that they prevent your knuckles from spreading and can help to protect your hands/wrist if you should happen to hit at the wrong angle. But learning how to punch without them will make you better at punching with them.

When you go back to using the gloves/wraps it seems to make a noticeable difference (from my experience anyhow) in terms of being able to generate maximal speed, power, and impact.