A Krav Maga Class?

Training
21

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Not sure about the specific course that you linked to but can say that where I used to train BJJ in London they used to hire the space out to Krav Maga instructor certification seminars.

The seminars were a joke, what they were teaching was not realistic in any way however they were implying that it was a fantastic self defence system and that from a 2-3 day course people could go off and instruct.
[/quote]

I would be curious to see that seminar. I’m working towards attending a 3 day event that will earn me my teacher certification, but its a 3 day test, not a seminar. If I am allowed to go (only after my own instructors agree that I’m ready to be tested) it will be after several months of very hard work towards that single goal, and that is with almost 2 years of hard training as a student. The test is 8 hours a day for all 3 days & I’ll be working the entire time. Even then I will only be certified to teach level 1 techniques. If there are people out there saying they can take you from knowing nothing to instructing in 2-3 days, I’d like to have a word with them.

[quote]
(one side note, Miss Parker stated that it takes ages for BJJ to be useful for self defence. Respectfully I disagree. Whilst it takes a long time to be good at using sports BJJ against a sports BJJ practitioner, what you learn in your first 3 lessons will give you a good grounding to defend yourself in most one on one situations.

What takes time is controlling your fear and making the movements automatic, the best way to do this is sparring the way they do in BJJ, Boxing,Muay Thai or Judo.)[/quote]

This is an excellent point, Cockney. I find BJJ confusing, but I’m rolling with sports BJJ practitioners who are much more experienced than me, not with some untrained Joe Blow.

22

Miss Parker, I am sure that there are some extremely good Krav Maga instructers about, the problem is that Krav Maga is basically a franchise and the bad guys ruin it for the true dedicated practicioners.

I know there are people that would argue that some of the BJJ affiliates are moving that way as well, especially with things like the Gracie Combatives course.

Training BJJ can be extremely frustrating, you can feel that you are getting nowhere, part of this is that the guys that you are training with are also improving. That’s why a great yardstick is when a totally new guy turns up to check out what the sport is about.

I love every now and then rolling with strong athletic guys who have no experience. It reminds me actually how much I know. It also allows me to train against someone’s natural reactions, instead of always working with people who have been trained to react to a stimulus in a particular way.

We have a great excercise that we do with anyone who comes in for a test lesson, we just get one of the more experienced guys to maintain mount whilst they try and escape. Once they have seen how well an often much smaller person can control them, we reverse it and tell them to hold down the same person. It really opens their eyes to how effective BJJ can be.

23

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

We have a great excercise that we do with anyone who comes in for a test lesson, we just get one of the more experienced guys to maintain mount whilst they try and escape. Once they have seen how well an often much smaller person can control them, we reverse it and tell them to hold down the same person. It really opens their eyes to how effective BJJ can be.[/quote]

Sounds like a great exercise - it says a lot without words!
(sigh) I wish I could train with everybody! :slight_smile:

24

[quote]Vulture wrote:
Miss Parker wrote:
Thosebananas, I have trained quite seriously in krav maga for just under two years now.

First, I want to say please stop beating yourself up about not taking on the four guys who attacked your mate. You got him the medical help he clearly needed, which was the right thing to do. You are untrained, were unarmed, and were confronted by 4 men, one of whom was armed and clearly prepared to end your life. Had you not called the ambulance your friend’s situation could have been much worse, as time is critical with head injuries.

2nd, this class looks like a good start, but it covers a great deal in only one day, so you may expect to only retain a little of it. Certain things will naturally grab your attention - concentrate on committing those to memory.

I notice that 3rd party protection is not covered in the seminar, which is what your situation called for - you may want to ask your instructor about it. It is simple to cover, & will help you to feel better about what happened because now you are prepared to deal with a similar situation. Refer to it as 3rd party protection & he will know exactly what you mean.

You might consider taking regular krav classes (or whatever style you choose) as it is frequent, focused training that will help you develop the skills you seek.

Interesting that the school is called 360, we have something in krav that are called 360 defenses, very useful.

And finally: YOU ARE NOT A PUSSY!! You got your friend medical care, you recognize there is a problem (lack of skills), and you are moving to fix the problem. You are actively trying to improve yourself, for your own sake and for others as well. Sounds like a true T-man to me! Good luck, TB, if you ever have krav questions, please feel free to PM me any time.

Total agreement. Some people would just have froze up and gibbered in a corner. You had enough about you to get the emergancy services.[/quote]

I said it in the other thread, Seriously you are in no way a coward…take a look at some youtube videos, there are literally hundreds of people getting the shit beat out of them for no reason and people just stand around doing nothing. They are real cowards and pussies.

25

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

We have a great excercise that we do with anyone who comes in for a test lesson, we just get one of the more experienced guys to maintain mount whilst they try and escape. Once they have seen how well an often much smaller person can control them, we reverse it and tell them to hold down the same person. It really opens their eyes to how effective BJJ can be.

Sounds like a great exercise - it says a lot without words!
(sigh) I wish I could train with everybody! :slight_smile:

[/quote]

It’s something that Royce has us do. We don’t tell the guy any techniques that he is not allowed to use. It’s great fun!

26

Personally I would go with the boxing as a base - though that probably includes a bit of personal bias as I don’t like kicking arts - they just don’t work for me. Boxing is hard, direct, effective, quick to learn and the training will teach you the very valuable lesson of what it’s like to be hit and how to avoid going down. I would also definitely look into the kali as that will give you a good grounding in weapon arts and even if you don’t intend to pick up a weapon you will have a much improved (though still not good) chance of avoiding/countering an armed opponent if you have experience with armed skills.

27

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
cant find any krav schools near me. i think there is only one in scotland.

i have muay thai, BJJ, JJ, Karate, KFM, Urban combat, Urban Kickboxing, Kali/Silat, Vale Tudo, JKD, MMA and wrestling.

going to do some research into all of them.

i like grappling and reckon id be quite good at it because of my size and from playing rugby.

also would like some self defence standing combat style stuff.

anyt thoughts?[/quote]

Well, on the BB’ing side of these forums, I never do feel qualified to open my trap, however when it comes to martial arts, something I’ve been in for quite a while, I’ll spill.

Honestly, don’t get hung up on trying to find a “perfect” style. There are none. No one style is going to make your fights play out like a chorerographed movie fight scene. Fights are dirty and brutal, not a lot goes to plan. So that said, take a look around, pick one that has proven combat application. Boxing and Muay Thai kickboxing are both proven combat sports.

Boxing, I would highly recommend. As long as it’s got a decent trainer and it (I must stress the importance of full contact sparring) has full contact sparring, then that is all you need for your standup skills.

Muay Thai, I’m not a big fan of, but mostly because it’s the latest “tough guy” cliche, every man and his dog lately seems to be “muay thai fighter!” “oh yeah where do you train?” “Oh you wouldn’t know him. He’s my dad’s brother’s cousin’s uncle who is an ex-world champion” . My personal feeling on it aside, it has proven itself as a martial art, and much like boxing, full contact sparring and realistic drills will give you much needed nervous system conditioning.

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground, so don’t neglect training your ground game. American wrestling or Judo is just as good an alternative if you so please.

Karate, is a bit of a hard subject. Like most TMAs (traditional martial arts) alot of them are ineffective because they buy too much into their own legend. However there are few very effective styles of karate, such as Kyokushin (Alot of professional fighters come from Kyokushin, for example, George St Pierre, Andy Hug), which is a very hardcore style of karate that emphasises hard physical conditioning, realistic training and full contact sparring (Noticing the pattern yet?).

KFM, I’m assuming you mean Keysi Fighting Method. Personally I believe It’s a bunch of bullshido, but I’ll wait till I actually try it one day.

Jeet Kune Do, is so watered down these days it isn’t funny. Don’t bother IMO. It also smacks of Bruce Lee’s original wishes, since Jeet Kune Do was never meant to be a “style” or “teachings” but rather the principle of open thought, which is essentially what modern MMA is.

Vale Tudo, never done it, won’t comment too much, but it looks like the real deal.

MMA, be careful here, alot of schools are claiming to be “MMA” just to cash in on the latest trend, when infact, are bullshido schools. Also remember MMA just means mixed martial arts. It’s just a label, not a specific style. By training Boxing and BJJ you would in effect be a mixed martial artist.

Wrestling, like I said before is just as good an alternative to BJJ.

Personally my top 3 recommendations would be: Boxing, Kyokushin karate or BJJ.

28

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

[/quote]

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

29

DOH! I completely omitted the grappling side! Personally I would go for wrestling if it’s available as I think it’s more immediately usable than BJJ which I found a bit more technical. BJJ is good but I tend to think it takes longer to get to the level where you can use it in anger (rather than sparring) than wrestling but that’s just personal opinion :slight_smile:

30

I know its been harped on…

I personally would do Mixed Martial Arts, its what I’ve done before, and it has personally helped me and helped me hurt others. Do something for yourself but even if you just do one thing, say Brazilian jiu-jitsu for example, research other things via the internet, such as stand-up and weapons defense. Keep your mind active.

My martial background is in Mixed Martial Arts, also, more importantly, I am a United States Marine. I was taught something during a combat hunter class…
“Be kind and courteous to those you meet, but have a plan to kill everyone you see”

Its very applicable statement. Also I suggest maintaining a “heightened awareness of things”, not necessarily always being on edge, but being observant.

31

[quote]edn wrote:
DOH! I completely omitted the grappling side! Personally I would go for wrestling if it’s available as I think it’s more immediately usable than BJJ which I found a bit more technical.

BJJ is good but I tend to think it takes longer to get to the level where you can use it in anger (rather than sparring) than wrestling but that’s just personal opinion :)[/quote]

I don’t know if I’d go that far, but wrestling is much more takedown/takedown defense oriented than BJJ. In wrestling you can’t pull guard, or fight from a “butt scoot” position (unless you want to get pinned quickly),

And there is much more emphasis placed on being aggressive and conditioning than a lot of BJJ schools (some are very good at this though, so it depends on who you train with, but as a whole).

In a real fight, the last place you want to be is on the ground. Sure, if you know it’s a fair one on one fight, no weapons involved, are on a fairly friendly surface (like a mat, or grass), and you are either losing the standing battle, or know you are superior on the ground, then taking the fight to the ground might make sense. In most cases, that won’t be the situation though.

Being able to stay on your feet, or if you get there, knowing how to get back up quickly, is a very useful skill set. Wrestlers tend to excel at this.

32

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
thosebananas wrote:
cant find any krav schools near me. i think there is only one in scotland.

i have muay thai, BJJ, JJ, Karate, KFM, Urban combat, Urban Kickboxing, Kali/Silat, Vale Tudo, JKD, MMA and wrestling.

going to do some research into all of them.

i like grappling and reckon id be quite good at it because of my size and from playing rugby.

also would like some self defence standing combat style stuff.

anyt thoughts?

Well, on the BB’ing side of these forums, I never do feel qualified to open my trap, however when it comes to martial arts, something I’ve been in for quite a while, I’ll spill.

Honestly, don’t get hung up on trying to find a “perfect” style. There are none. No one style is going to make your fights play out like a chorerographed movie fight scene. Fights are dirty and brutal, not a lot goes to plan. So that said, take a look around, pick one that has proven combat application. Boxing and Muay Thai kickboxing are both proven combat sports.

Boxing, I would highly recommend. As long as it’s got a decent trainer and it (I must stress the importance of full contact sparring) has full contact sparring, then that is all you need for your standup skills.

Muay Thai, I’m not a big fan of, but mostly because it’s the latest “tough guy” cliche, every man and his dog lately seems to be “muay thai fighter!” “oh yeah where do you train?” “Oh you wouldn’t know him. He’s my dad’s brother’s cousin’s uncle who is an ex-world champion” .

My personal feeling on it aside, it has proven itself as a martial art, and much like boxing, full contact sparring and realistic drills will give you much needed nervous system conditioning.

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground, so don’t neglect training your ground game. American wrestling or Judo is just as good an alternative if you so please.

Karate, is a bit of a hard subject. Like most TMAs (traditional martial arts) alot of them are ineffective because they buy too much into their own legend.

However there are few very effective styles of karate, such as Kyokushin (Alot of professional fighters come from Kyokushin, for example, George St Pierre, Andy Hug), which is a very hardcore style of karate that emphasises hard physical conditioning, realistic training and full contact sparring (Noticing the pattern yet?).

KFM, I’m assuming you mean Keysi Fighting Method. Personally I believe It’s a bunch of bullshido, but I’ll wait till I actually try it one day.

Jeet Kune Do, is so watered down these days it isn’t funny. Don’t bother IMO. It also smacks of Bruce Lee’s original wishes, since Jeet Kune Do was never meant to be a “style” or “teachings” but rather the principle of open thought, which is essentially what modern MMA is.

Vale Tudo, never done it, won’t comment too much, but it looks like the real deal.

MMA, be careful here, alot of schools are claiming to be “MMA” just to cash in on the latest trend, when infact, are bullshido schools. Also remember MMA just means mixed martial arts. It’s just a label, not a specific style. By training Boxing and BJJ you would in effect be a mixed martial artist.

Wrestling, like I said before is just as good an alternative to BJJ.

Personally my top 3 recommendations would be: Boxing, Kyokushin karate or BJJ.
[/quote]

Pretty much agree with everything you said.

In regards to JKD, the problem is that there are just so many off-shoots at this point, and there is too much infighting between gurus/groups to the point where many of them are almost becoming “classical” in their thinking.

If you train under the right guy though, it can be worth it. I’ve trained with Joe Lewis a few times (my instructors are black belts under him), and although he doesn’t call what he does JKD, he was Bruce’s prize student, and the only one of Bruce’s students to fight with “JKD” as his style.

He’s also trained with many of the best boxers, boxing trainers and kickboxers/trainers of all time. I truly believe that just about anyone could benefit from training with him.

So, if the school is affiliated with Lewis, check it out.

33

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.[/quote]

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.

34

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.[/quote]

Of course. This is why I say that striking is the most important part of fighting- if you can do it, you’ll end the fight in three shots before it’s even got the chance to get to the ground.

Why use a bayonet when you can use the artillery and get him from long range?

35

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.

You also have to take into account how few people that get into fights can actually fight. Isn’t there a thread about this very subject on the main page? :wink:

Most fights are just wild swinging for the fences punches, and then eventually one (or both) of the two combatants will grab hold of the other one and drag them down to the ground.

From there it’s just a lot of rolling around, or the one unlucky enough to be outnumbered getting beat on by the other guy’s friends, or the fight gets broken up when it’s obvious that one person has won.

Of course. This is why I say that striking is the most important part of fighting- if you can do it, you’ll end the fight in three shots before it’s even got the chance to get to the ground.

Why use a bayonet when you can use the artillery and get him from long range?[/quote]

Not picking a fight here but I’d disagree. I, much like you, come from a heavy background in boxing, and I do love the sport. But for the average dude, to develop that kind of knockout power under stress takes a good year or so of dedication. The thing that amazed me about BJJ though, was how easy it was to pick up and learn. That being said though, I’m starting to play around with a theory that certain people may find striking more natural and others find wrestling/grappling natural.

For me, while boxing was great, I really had to develop skill through countless spars before I was getting anywhere near decent with my mitts. BJJ on the other hand, within the first or second lesson I was picking up skillsets and was able to apply what I learnt.

36

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

Not picking a fight here but I’d disagree. I, much like you, come from a heavy background in boxing, and I do love the sport. But for the average dude, to develop that kind of knockout power under stress takes a good year or so of dedication. The thing that amazed me about BJJ though, was how easy it was to pick up and learn. That being said though, I’m starting to play around with a theory that certain people may find striking more natural and others find wrestling/grappling natural.

For me, while boxing was great, I really had to develop skill through countless spars before I was getting anywhere near decent with my mitts. BJJ on the other hand, within the first or second lesson I was picking up skillsets and was able to apply what I learnt. [/quote]

That may be true… maybe there is a certain predisposition to certain types.

But let me tell you something- if you want to grapple or wrestle in the street, you’re an idiot. You have to know it, of course, just in case, but it should always, ALWAYS be the last option to go to the ground.

There’s a bloodstain in the pavement outside the bar I was at last night from a guy that got into it with the bouncers. I watched him get tossed, and watched his head slam into the pavement and knock him cold. Then the stain started flowing… and the cops, the ambulances… I keep watching the newspaper’s website to see if he died. I might have watched a guy get killed last night in a bar fight. It’s kind of crazy.

This is what people don’t understand- your take down could be beautiful and perfect, but if you fuck it up and drive yourself into the ground, it’s not like a fuckin wrestling mat- the curb don’t give.

I just think it’s unwise.

37

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Not picking a fight here but I’d disagree. I, much like you, come from a heavy background in boxing, and I do love the sport. But for the average dude, to develop that kind of knockout power under stress takes a good year or so of dedication. The thing that amazed me about BJJ though, was how easy it was to pick up and learn. That being said though, I’m starting to play around with a theory that certain people may find striking more natural and others find wrestling/grappling natural.

For me, while boxing was great, I really had to develop skill through countless spars before I was getting anywhere near decent with my mitts. BJJ on the other hand, within the first or second lesson I was picking up skillsets and was able to apply what I learnt. [/quote]

For me it’s completely the other way round! I find boxing much more natural than BJJ so I suppose you have to try things and see what works for you. That’s why I would be inclined to go for wrestling rather than BJJ - it’s simpler and more direct and for me that makes it more applicable. As a first resort though I would always go for a striking style - lots of fights may end up on the ground in a scramble but many more start standing up with punches. And that’s ignoring the fact that purring yourself on the ground is pretty much painting a target on your face for all your opponents friends - or any bystander who wants to have a go. That being said you ignore grappling at your peril - if you do get into a fight then you will need to use grappling skills at some point.

38

If the OP wants self defense why would he go with BJJ or wrestling to start with? I guess I am pretty lucky. I just started Krav Maga but that comes with BJJ also. It is actually pretty cool, I do Krav on Monday, BJJ and Krav on Teusday and then on Friday is a boxing/fighting/mma fundamental type training.

I suggest a stand up fighting style to the OP. If he later wants to learn the ground game he can go with BJJ or wrestling but remember his question was Self Defense, not competition fighting. Self Defense means kick total ass and then get the eff outta there.

39

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Aussie Davo wrote:

BJJ or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, is great stuff. Many guys like to think they’ll just hit someone who tries to tackle them to the ground. Bad news is bub, that shit rarely goes to plan and statistics show something lik 60-80% of fights end up in a tussle or on the ground,

That’s not true. That’s the greatest myth in all of fighting. It started with an LAPD research thing that talked about how 47 percent of ARRESTS went to the ground- and that’s obvious, because to cuff someone you have to pin them against something.

The grappling gurus stole it and twisted it. That figure is completely untrue. I’m not saying groundfighting isn’t important, but that always gets me when I hear that “statistic”.[/quote]

Always makes me laugh when I read that stat. It’s straight out of the Rorion Gracie marketing material (along with certain 400-0 stats.)

I’m a BJJ guy through and through, and will go along with the fact that a fair amount of the time if two unskilled drunks start a fight they are going to end up hugging and rolling around on the floor. But to talk about ‘statistics’ for something as unscientific and unreported as street fights is a joke.

40

The OP hasn’t been back to the thread for a while, and I hope that is because he is out training something! Its so easy to get analysis-paralysis about this sort of thing, I was crippled by it for ages.

Try some stuff out, read that blog post about passion from Ross Training, find something you enjoy and train the hell out of it. For all I know boxing is better for self defence than my judo/BJJ combo, but it would be crap for me because I don’t enjoy boxing so chances are I would miss sessions. I am fairly confident that BJJ/judo classes I attend do more for my self defence capabilities than boxing classes I would miss. I guess what I am getting at is do SOMETHING, something you will enjoy and will stick with.