[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
I have seen it, the picture of his start point is 20-30 percent body fat.
[/quote]
I don’t think you realize how large the difference between 20 and 30 percent body fat is. That’s a huge range. A 200 pound male with 20% bodyfat has 40 pounds of fat; the same 200 pound male with 30% bodyfat has 60 pounds of fat. Saying that someone is “20 or 30 percent body fat” is like saying “I bench 200 or 300 pounds.”
Meh. While I don’t agree with your approach, I would bet money that if you do as you plan (only eating when hungry, and eating healthy foods, which is a far way from what you made it sound like in your original post) then you’ll likely lose fat these first couple months without trying if you consistently push yourself in the gym.
How you will react to that when the time comes, I have no idea, since it’s the opposite direction you want to go weight wise. But that’s my prediction. I was honestly expecting your current stats to be something like 5 ft 9, 270 lbs or something like that. I mean 30% bodyfat is still 30%, but I don’t know I just expected something different.
And yeah 20-30% is a huge range, and a significant difference.
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.
One other approach you could take would be to cut down (which you said you’ve done before) and get down to a more healthy bodyfat. This does not mean you have to get 10%, 12%, or any set number. It doesn’t even mean you have to get abs. While doing this, obviously keep lifting and you should gain some strength during this cut, more then you’d expect I feel.
No you’re not going to look awesome when you’re done with your cut, but it’s not like your going to look awesome 3 months from now if you only focus on strength and weight gain either and the strength difference between these two approaches at your level of development wouldn’t be much.
After you cut, then you begin doing what you’re planning on doing and lift and eat in a manner similar to X, George, and all of those other guys you mentioned. That way, if you gain some fat you’re not putting yourself into deathly obese category. Obviously you wouldn’t try to gain fat, but in a condition more similar to what X and George had when they started out gaining you’d have more “leeway” to be free when gaining and not put yourself into a dangerous zone.
Plus, you could actually look like you lift this way which doesn’t seem to be a deal for you but still, even the guy whose picture was posted in this thread looks like he lifts even if he is smooth. If you wanted to look like him, you’d still have to cut at some point anyway.
Just a thought. It really doesn’t bother me which way you go and I’m surprised that you’ve been as measured in your responses to people as you’ve been, given that pretty much everyone is 100% against your idea. So that’s pretty cool actually.
At any rate, best of luck to you on your plan man. I’m genuinely hoping you reach your goals.
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
I did cut down a few years ago I got quite low body fat and had 4 visible abs but I looked small and I had so many stretch marks and scars being super lean didn’t look very good.[/quote]
Lots of guys around here have stretch marks. They say it’s just part of the game. As has been said, your goals are your own thing, just don’t use “I have a lot of stretch marks” as an excuse to not cut down again.
Good, this is a start. I’d suggest looking for a meet within the next year, to nail down a concrete target on the calendar and help give some structure and real purpose to your training.
Again, good start. But you have to keep it in perspective. You’re looking at a guy with years more training experience, a few inches in height, and about 100 pounds of bodyweight on you. I get it though. I used to be inspired by Lee Priest when I was a 6’2" 180+ pound high schooler. It’s one thing to be inspired by a physique, and it’s another to try to emulate it exactly.
I wouldn’t call your outlook odd, I’d call it ineffective, borderline delusional. It does help that you clarified things a bit, but your first few posts were way defensive in response to some fairly reasonable and objective criticism.
Again, if you’ve really been lurking on this site for a long time, you’ll probably have noticed that not too many guys lift in order to impress women, and there are certainly a bunch of guys who totally do not crave the shredded look.
This is kinda the crux of your problem. You’re already fat without the benefit of a base of strength or muscle. Even six months focused on dropping fat and building a foundation would be time well spent, and would leave you in a much better position to reach your bigger goals.
There’s going by feel and autoregulating within the general framework of a routine and then there’s winging it and hoping it all works out. Using Wendler as a perfect example, 5/3/1 is literally all about figuring out how to individualize the template for your own goals. I just wrote an article discussing it a few weeks ago. Yes, it’s “a pre-designed program”, but you decide how much/little volume, conditioning, and intensity to use (to an extent).
And like I said, that upper body workout you described is only going to fuck up your shoulders more, or at the very least, it’s not going to help whatever your problem is. You’re still a very young dude with on and off training experience. It would be tremendously beneficial for you to follow a program, pay attention to how it effects your body, and then, eventually, you’ll be in a position to come up with your own plan.
Just because you’re following a routine (written by an experienced and knowledgable coach who’s helped tons of people before) doesn’t mean you can’t still listen to your body session to session, while still following the plan.
Brandon Lilly had an interview on another site last year (can’t link to it here). This is a little of what he said:
“In order to succeed, you need to have effort and consistency. These two things go hand in hand. I hear people say things like, “It just takes time.” While that is an honest and fair answer, if you are a jackass in the gym, six days a week is gonna take forever. You need consistent dedication to a plan. Planning is everything.
…
I see so many guys bounce around from program to program, and then complain about failure. Just imagine lifting as a journey - every time you switch up your plan because you don’t think you are getting there fast enough, you take ten steps back. Now, compare that to the guy who has a long-term plan. While he may only take a half step every six months, in a year he’s a step ahead of last year. That other guy? He’s now eleven steps behind. Dedication and consistency in the gym, along with a well thought out plan - this is what every successful lifter has.
…
I always say, to be the best powerlifter you need to train like a strongman and eat like a bodybuilder. That is the best recipe I know. It works.
…
I hate to say this (I can because I used the be like this) but powerlifters are lazy and sloppy. They think just getting bigger will yield more weight lifted. Now while that is true in some cases, I hope powerlifting sets you up with a good retirement plan because you are gonna feel like death and will probably face it sooner than most because of your habits. It was only after I started training, and competing raw did I have a change of heart.
…
I had competed in California with the Lilliebridges, Dan Green, and a few others, and these guys looked like off-season bodybuilders. As I reflected on the competition, I saw some pictures of myself. You know what? I was embarrassed. Horribly embarrassed. I had started training to look and feel better. But I ended up looking and feeling like shit. As I have made better food choices and actually started walking daily, I feel amazing. I’m down about 20 lb. but I’m just as strong. In fact, I feel and look like a lifter should. Today, I am convinced that nutrition is make or break for powerlifters. If you don’t believe it, then keep eating like death and death will find you.”
And, FWIW, Lilly was 170 pounds before he really got into lifting, and I’mma guess he wasn’t near 20% bodyfat.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
I did cut down a few years ago I got quite low body fat and had 4 visible abs but I looked small and I had so many stretch marks and scars being super lean didn’t look very good.[/quote]
Lots of guys around here have stretch marks. They say it’s just part of the game. As has been said, your goals are your own thing, just don’t use “I have a lot of stretch marks” as an excuse to not cut down again.
Good, this is a start. I’d suggest looking for a meet within the next year, to nail down a concrete target on the calendar and help give some structure and real purpose to your training.
Again, good start. But you have to keep it in perspective. You’re looking at a guy with years more training experience, a few inches in height, and about 100 pounds of bodyweight on you. I get it though. I used to be inspired by Lee Priest when I was a 6’2" 180+ pound high schooler. It’s one thing to be inspired by a physique, and it’s another to try to emulate it exactly.
I wouldn’t call your outlook odd, I’d call it ineffective, borderline delusional. It does help that you clarified things a bit, but your first few posts were way defensive in response to some fairly reasonable and objective criticism.
Again, if you’ve really been lurking on this site for a long time, you’ll probably have noticed that not too many guys lift in order to impress women, and there are certainly a bunch of guys who totally do not crave the shredded look.
This is kinda the crux of your problem. You’re already fat without the benefit of a base of strength or muscle. Even six months focused on dropping fat and building a foundation would be time well spent, and would leave you in a much better position to reach your bigger goals.
There’s going by feel and autoregulating within the general framework of a routine and then there’s winging it and hoping it all works out. Using Wendler as a perfect example, 5/3/1 is literally all about figuring out how to individualize the template for your own goals. I just wrote an article discussing it a few weeks ago. Yes, it’s “a pre-designed program”, but you decide how much/little volume, conditioning, and intensity to use (to an extent).
And like I said, that upper body workout you described is only going to fuck up your shoulders more, or at the very least, it’s not going to help whatever your problem is. You’re still a very young dude with on and off training experience. It would be tremendously beneficial for you to follow a program, pay attention to how it effects your body, and then, eventually, you’ll be in a position to come up with your own plan.
Just because you’re following a routine (written by an experienced and knowledgable coach who’s helped tons of people before) doesn’t mean you can’t still listen to your body session to session, while still following the plan.
Brandon Lilly had an interview on another site last year (can’t link to it here). This is a little of what he said:
“In order to succeed, you need to have effort and consistency. These two things go hand in hand. I hear people say things like, “It just takes time.” While that is an honest and fair answer, if you are a jackass in the gym, six days a week is gonna take forever. You need consistent dedication to a plan. Planning is everything.
…
I see so many guys bounce around from program to program, and then complain about failure. Just imagine lifting as a journey - every time you switch up your plan because you don’t think you are getting there fast enough, you take ten steps back. Now, compare that to the guy who has a long-term plan. While he may only take a half step every six months, in a year he’s a step ahead of last year. That other guy? He’s now eleven steps behind. Dedication and consistency in the gym, along with a well thought out plan - this is what every successful lifter has.
…
I always say, to be the best powerlifter you need to train like a strongman and eat like a bodybuilder. That is the best recipe I know. It works.
…
I hate to say this (I can because I used the be like this) but powerlifters are lazy and sloppy. They think just getting bigger will yield more weight lifted. Now while that is true in some cases, I hope powerlifting sets you up with a good retirement plan because you are gonna feel like death and will probably face it sooner than most because of your habits. It was only after I started training, and competing raw did I have a change of heart.
…
I had competed in California with the Lilliebridges, Dan Green, and a few others, and these guys looked like off-season bodybuilders. As I reflected on the competition, I saw some pictures of myself. You know what? I was embarrassed. Horribly embarrassed. I had started training to look and feel better. But I ended up looking and feeling like shit. As I have made better food choices and actually started walking daily, I feel amazing. I’m down about 20 lb. but I’m just as strong. In fact, I feel and look like a lifter should. Today, I am convinced that nutrition is make or break for powerlifters. If you don’t believe it, then keep eating like death and death will find you.”
And, FWIW, Lilly was 170 pounds before he really got into lifting, and I’mma guess he wasn’t near 20% bodyfat.[/quote]
Thanks Chris. I am not going to say this has put me off my goals or necessarily changed my mind but it has certainly given me something to think about.
And as you said Lilly had years more experience than me. I am not talking about going from 205 to 350 in a year, I am talking about staying dedicated and consistent and building a big and strong physique over the coming decade.
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.[/quote]
Take a good guess.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.[/quote]
Take a good guess.[/quote]
I can’t as the human eye can not tell a body fat percentage in an accurate way.
[quote]staystrong wrote:
One other approach you could take would be to cut down (which you said you’ve done before) and get down to a more healthy bodyfat. This does not mean you have to get 10%, 12%, or any set number. It doesn’t even mean you have to get abs. While doing this, obviously keep lifting and you should gain some strength during this cut, more then you’d expect I feel.
No you’re not going to look awesome when you’re done with your cut, but it’s not like your going to look awesome 3 months from now if you only focus on strength and weight gain either and the strength difference between these two approaches at your level of development wouldn’t be much.
After you cut, then you begin doing what you’re planning on doing and lift and eat in a manner similar to X, George, and all of those other guys you mentioned. That way, if you gain some fat you’re not putting yourself into deathly obese category. Obviously you wouldn’t try to gain fat, but in a condition more similar to what X and George had when they started out gaining you’d have more “leeway” to be free when gaining and not put yourself into a dangerous zone.
Plus, you could actually look like you lift this way which doesn’t seem to be a deal for you but still, even the guy whose picture was posted in this thread looks like he lifts even if he is smooth. If you wanted to look like him, you’d still have to cut at some point anyway.
Just a thought. It really doesn’t bother me which way you go and I’m surprised that you’ve been as measured in your responses to people as you’ve been, given that pretty much everyone is 100% against your idea. So that’s pretty cool actually.
At any rate, best of luck to you on your plan man. I’m genuinely hoping you reach your goals.[/quote]
Thanks man. Very nice of you.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.[/quote]
Take a good guess.[/quote]
Thats big?
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’? Being fat makes you less competitive in any event involving weight classes, puts you at a higher risk for health problems, and makes almost everything outside of the gym more difficult. I guess this is where the ‘I don’t give a fuck’ response comes in…
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’? Being fat makes you less competitive in any event involving weight classes, puts you at a higher risk for health problems, and makes almost everything outside of the gym more difficult. I guess this is where the ‘I don’t give a fuck’ response comes in…[/quote]
Its a valid point. Thanks for the feedback.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’?[/quote]
Let’s see. You’re more buoyant, so swimming across a lake is easier. Your extra insulation allows you to wear shorts and a t-shirt for an extra month or two where I live. You are better equipped to handle famine, of course.
Other than that, being fat sucks!
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’?[/quote]
Let’s see. You’re more buoyant, so swimming across a lake is easier. Your extra insulation allows you to wear shorts and a t-shirt for an extra month or two where I live. You are better equipped to handle famine, of course.
Other than that, being fat sucks!
[/quote]
If you die in a plane crash in a barren land, your compatriots can feed on you longer??
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’?[/quote]
Let’s see. You’re more buoyant, so swimming across a lake is easier. Your extra insulation allows you to wear shorts and a t-shirt for an extra month or two where I live. You are better equipped to handle famine, of course.
Other than that, being fat sucks!
[/quote]
An extra 2 months of being able to wear shorts a t-shirt where I live would end up being 14 months. That’d be a long year.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
What’s the benefit of intentionally staying above 20% consistently, other than the ability to say ‘I just don’t give a fuck’?[/quote]
Let’s see. You’re more buoyant, so swimming across a lake is easier. Your extra insulation allows you to wear shorts and a t-shirt for an extra month or two where I live. You are better equipped to handle famine, of course.
Other than that, being fat sucks!
[/quote]
If you die in a plane crash in a barren land, your compatriots can feed on you longer??[/quote]
That too, yes.
You can also pull off some good Halloween costumes that a fit, muscular man could only dream of. I’m talking about Jabba the Hutt. Paul Blartt Mall Cop. Sumo Wrestler. Buddha. Peter Griffin.
I’ve also noticed that slimming down means I really need to compete with the person next to me for the arm rest on an airplane. When I was 320 they just gave it up without a fight.
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.[/quote]
Take a good guess.[/quote]
Thats big?[/quote]
No. Not morbidly obese either. A good base of muscle for a 14 year old which he increased LONG with bodyfat as he got to 400lbs.
So if you want to start on that route its better to start with lower bodyfat so you can bloody push the envelope with calories when strength gains slow down.
How hard is it to understand? Do you think you are only going to gain muscle and no fat? Or do you think strength gains will come indefinitely while fluctuating round a higher bodyweight?
A plus of being fat is that its super easy to get girls. Being fat has made me way more successful with women.
Whether its just being fat makes them more confident to engage with you or something I don’t really know. When I was younger I was lean and popular but only attracted hot but vapid and stupid girls.
It seems the cool girls like “teddybear” action. Maybe i am just attracting weird furries and I to them am a big fat teddybear. Either way I count that as a plus.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]Paradise Lost wrote:
By 20-30 I meant he was in-between, Without a dexa scan its a load of guess work.[/quote]
Take a good guess.[/quote]
Thats big?[/quote]
No. Not morbidly obese either. A good base of muscle for a 14 year old which he increased LONG with bodyfat as he got to 400lbs.
So if you want to start on that route its better to start with lower bodyfat so you can bloody push the envelope with calories when strength gains slow down.
How hard is it to understand? Do you think you are only going to gain muscle and no fat? Or do you think strength gains will come indefinitely while fluctuating round a higher bodyweight?[/quote]
I think getting smaller will, well get me smaller. I can see your point and most people here agree with you. I am simply not sure that it is right and ultimately I am going to have to do what i think is the best thing to do.
As I said I might end up recomping because I just put everything i ate today in my old myfitnespal account on my iPod and eating whenever i am hungry from good food sources I ate 2855 calories.
Looking at calorie calculators I should be getting 2300 - 2900 a day depending on exercise etc to maintain my current weight.
As I said I am looking at this journey in terms of decades not weeks months or years.
My end goal is to be in the 275 - 320 range and I have a personal total I want to hit before the day I die. This is a long process and I am determined to reach the goals I have set for myself.
I can adjust and recalculate and respond to things on this journey and am not going to just slam gallon after gallon of chocolate milk with a dozen krispe kremes for breakfast.
Again I thank you for your honest feedback and I hope you will check into my log to see my progress and keep giving me feedback and honest opinions as i progress.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I’ve also noticed that slimming down means I really need to compete with the person next to me for the arm rest on an airplane. When I was 320 they just gave it up without a fight.
[/quote]
For some reason this highly amused me. Well done 
