i have been doing 531 for a while, program is good and having good results.(i am not a PL nor a WL, just a recreational lifter, so big numbers on squat or deadlift arent my primary goals…my goals are overall strength)
i have done some search but didnt find anything
i want to include some power cleans in it. i know that JW reccomends to put them before deadlifts and squat, and it isn’t this what i am here to debate.
i am thinking to drop the deadlift and use clean pulls instead, since i believe they would have a stronger carry over on the cleans… i know the movements are different and that i would be, of course, moving less weight…
i also believe that my deadlift would go up anyway, since i got very long arms and a rather strong grip, and i noticed that as long as my squat goes up, so does my deadlift…
plus… working on clean pull, even if different from deadlift, would allow mw to work on my lower back etc…
[quote] GavriloStoker wrote:
i want to include some power cleans in it. i know that JW reccomends to put them before deadlifts and squat, and it isn’t this what i am here to debate.
i am thinking to drop the deadlift and use clean pulls instead, since i believe they would have a stronger carry over on the cleans… i know the movements are different and that i would be, of course, moving less weight…
[/quote]
Haven’t read 5/3/1 or done 5/3/1 (I am somewhat familiar with the principles) but I doubt Jim says to do them before unless it is for warmups. What are you looking to accomplish by doing this? If it is to increase your deadlift, they would be put to better use as an assistance exercise.
Those who understand his program in and out may know better, but under general principle I think you are going about this wrong, then again I am not sure what your endgame is.
What are you looking to increase by doing this? Overall strength in regards to what?
[quote] GavriloStoker wrote:
i want to include some power cleans in it. i know that JW reccomends to put them before deadlifts and squat, and it isn’t this what i am here to debate.
i am thinking to drop the deadlift and use clean pulls instead, since i believe they would have a stronger carry over on the cleans… i know the movements are different and that i would be, of course, moving less weight…
[/quote]
Haven’t read 5/3/1 or done 5/3/1 (I am somewhat familiar with the principles) but I doubt Jim says to do them before unless it is for warmups. What are you looking to accomplish by doing this? If it is to increase your deadlift, they would be put to better use as an assistance exercise.
[/quote]
Actually… he does. And in most programs, you put the fastest movements in before the heavier ‘grindier’ movements.
Why not do power cleans before your deadlifts and clean pulls before you squat.
By clean pull, do you mean a high pull or a type of deadlift specialized for WL? My recommendation is if you mean high pulls.
In the new “Beyond 531” book, Wendler has a variation where you power clean every training session. Whatever you do Don’t stop deadlufting though, that would be foolish even if your goal isn’t to be a powerlifter.
OP, I don’t see a problem for a cycle or two, dropping the dead in favor of the clean. The dead will continue to move up as long as your squat does, and a break for month or two will probably give you a size, and strength increase. The deadlift is hard on CNS so a couple months could be healthy. I do my cleans before sqauts, and deads, per 531, and have good results, but it can be alot somtimes. As lond as your still pushing your other lifts hard, this could be a good expeiment.
Remember the original Bill Star 5x5 was Bench-squat-cleans sans deads, also West side program leaves the dead out. Believing it will move up with the squat, ands the body will get stronger without so much damage to CNS.
Anyway the only way to know for sure is to try it. You won’t loose anything, and will probably gain some upper back thickness. A couple things to consider is mabey doing some deads after squating once in a while, mabey on week three after you max out on squat, throw some deads in. You could also cycle back and forth-1 month deads-1 month cleans, on the month your not doing the movement, mabey train it light on squat day.
The clean is a big move, mabey as big as deads. I don’t see this idea taking any thing away from your program, only adding to it. Goodluck
Don’t be scared about dropping the deadlift, as long as your squatting heavy, and keep your grip up you’ll lose nothing. If anything the heavy cleans will add to your program. I don’t understand your question about clean variations, i wouldn’t switch that around to much.
In my personal 531 program I moved deads behind squats on squat day, and do front squats as main move on second lower body day. As I wanted to bring up quads.
Most PLer’s don’t do deads through out the year, only the last cycle leading up to the meet. Don’t let people worry you about dropping deads for a while, They’ve probably never tried it before. If you stop deadlifting for 6mths, and your squat goes up 50lbs during that 6mths. I’d be willing to bet when you started deadlifting again, it would be 50lbs heavier as well, with out ever training it. Thing is, if you never tried this you wouldn’t know. goodluck
Do not drop deadlifts. All they are is an overloaded clean pull anyways, one where you can’t keep your hips down low enough when you initiate the movement; heavy clean pulls would do nothing more for your clean that heavy deadlifts, squats and technique work would, and I’d stand behind saying that trifecta would do you better.
If you’re really hell bent on increasing your power clean I would do a clean deadlift instead of the regular deadlift. You’ll need WL shoes or prop your heel up 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch and be sure to keep your hips down really low and keep an arch in your back. A good bit different than your traditional deadlift and may perhaps even be more ‘athletic’. It’s also easier to recover from so if you programmed high pulls in before it, it would be a lot more doable.