I’m hesistant to say “megadosing” as the doses I’m thinking about are right within what is typical for human studies with a weight loss application, ~700-900 mg. Skimmed through one abstract this morning where the 5-htp group had something like a 38% drop in calorific intake due to appetite suppression. Why the hell isn’t everyone doing this?
Also how would this react with ECA?
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m hesistant to say “megadosing” as the doses I’m thinking about are right within what is typical for human studies with a weight loss application, ~700-900 mg. Skimmed through one abstract this morning where the 5-htp group had something like a 38% drop in calorific intake due to appetite suppression. Why the hell isn’t everyone doing this?
Also how would this react with ECA? [/quote]
Do NOT. I repeat, DO NOT, megadose 5-htp. You DO NOT want to mess around too crazily with 5-htp. I also don’t recommend taking 5-htp without cycling off of it here and there.
5-htp crosses the BBB easily and converts to serotonin. Serotonin CAN be downregulated but even more importantly, too much of it is VERY bad for your well being. There is a symptom called serotonin syndrome. I suggest you look into it.
I’m not saying that you should avoid it, many people have deficiencies in serotonin that is alleviated with 5-htp supplementation (also a good idea for those on very high protein diets because tryptophan which converts to 5-htp which then converts to serotonin, has trouble competing for absorption when other amino acids are present, especially when BCAAs are present in high enough doses), however, you want to be using it in moderation and try to keep the dosages as low as you can whilst still being effective.
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m hesistant to say “megadosing” as the doses I’m thinking about are right within what is typical for human studies with a weight loss application, ~700-900 mg. Skimmed through one abstract this morning where the 5-htp group had something like a 38% drop in calorific intake due to appetite suppression. Why the hell isn’t everyone doing this?
Also how would this react with ECA? [/quote]
Do NOT. I repeat, DO NOT, megadose 5-htp. You DO NOT want to mess around too crazily with 5-htp. I also don’t recommend taking 5-htp without cycling off of it here and there.
5-htp crosses the BBB easily and converts to serotonin. Serotonin CAN be downregulated but even more importantly, too much of it is VERY bad for your well being. There is a symptom called serotonin syndrome. I suggest you look into it.
I’m not saying that you should avoid it, many people have deficiencies in serotonin that is alleviated with 5-htp supplementation (also a good idea for those on very high protein diets because tryptophan which converts to 5-htp which then converts to serotonin, has trouble competing for absorption when other amino acids are present, especially when BCAAs are present in high enough doses), however, you want to be using it in moderation and try to keep the dosages as low as you can whilst still being effective.[/quote]
Thank you for the reply. What would you suggest for weight loss purposes?
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m hesistant to say “megadosing” as the doses I’m thinking about are right within what is typical for human studies with a weight loss application, ~700-900 mg. Skimmed through one abstract this morning where the 5-htp group had something like a 38% drop in calorific intake due to appetite suppression. Why the hell isn’t everyone doing this?
Also how would this react with ECA? [/quote]
Do NOT. I repeat, DO NOT, megadose 5-htp. You DO NOT want to mess around too crazily with 5-htp. I also don’t recommend taking 5-htp without cycling off of it here and there.
5-htp crosses the BBB easily and converts to serotonin. Serotonin CAN be downregulated but even more importantly, too much of it is VERY bad for your well being. There is a symptom called serotonin syndrome. I suggest you look into it.
I’m not saying that you should avoid it, many people have deficiencies in serotonin that is alleviated with 5-htp supplementation (also a good idea for those on very high protein diets because tryptophan which converts to 5-htp which then converts to serotonin, has trouble competing for absorption when other amino acids are present, especially when BCAAs are present in high enough doses), however, you want to be using it in moderation and try to keep the dosages as low as you can whilst still being effective.[/quote]
Thank you for the reply. What would you suggest for weight loss purposes? [/quote]
Proper diet, proper training. When you get to low bodyfat %'s (close to 10% or lower, basically the last stretch of a typical cut), then you can start adding things like fat burners and what not to help keep the fat burning going.
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m hesistant to say “megadosing” as the doses I’m thinking about are right within what is typical for human studies with a weight loss application, ~700-900 mg. Skimmed through one abstract this morning where the 5-htp group had something like a 38% drop in calorific intake due to appetite suppression. Why the hell isn’t everyone doing this?
Also how would this react with ECA? [/quote]
Do NOT. I repeat, DO NOT, megadose 5-htp. You DO NOT want to mess around too crazily with 5-htp. I also don’t recommend taking 5-htp without cycling off of it here and there.
5-htp crosses the BBB easily and converts to serotonin. Serotonin CAN be downregulated but even more importantly, too much of it is VERY bad for your well being. There is a symptom called serotonin syndrome. I suggest you look into it.
I’m not saying that you should avoid it, many people have deficiencies in serotonin that is alleviated with 5-htp supplementation (also a good idea for those on very high protein diets because tryptophan which converts to 5-htp which then converts to serotonin, has trouble competing for absorption when other amino acids are present, especially when BCAAs are present in high enough doses), however, you want to be using it in moderation and try to keep the dosages as low as you can whilst still being effective.[/quote]
Thank you for the reply. What would you suggest for weight loss purposes? [/quote]
Proper diet, proper training. When you get to low bodyfat %'s (close to 10% or lower, basically the last stretch of a typical cut), then you can start adding things like fat burners and what not to help keep the fat burning going.[/quote]
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?[/quote]
5-htp is not an appetite suppressant. It’s main effect is increased serotonin which elevates mood (and even then, if you are not serotonic deficient, even the mood effects become not very noticeable). Using it as a diet aid is idiotic and akin to those whom uses high doses of melatonin as if melatonin was a sedative. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Get your diet dialed in first. Get through most of your cut via diet and exercise alone. When you hit the low bf %'s in which metabolism is most likely going to slow down and calories may have to be even stricter, add in a fat burner (cheap and super effective is of course EC).
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?[/quote]
5-htp is not an appetite suppressant. It’s main effect is increased serotonin which elevates mood (and even then, if you are not serotonic deficient, even the mood effects become not very noticeable). Using it as a diet aid is idiotic and akin to those whom uses high doses of melatonin as if melatonin was a sedative. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Get your diet dialed in first. Get through most of your cut via diet and exercise alone. When you hit the low bf %'s in which metabolism is most likely going to slow down and calories may have to be even stricter, add in a fat burner (cheap and super effective is of course EC).[/quote]
From: 5-HTP — Health benefits, dosage, safety, side-effects, and more | Supplements - Examine
The effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior in obese adult female subjects
Notes for this Study:
8mg/kg 5-HTP in obese women (BMI 30-40) was associated with a reduction of calories by approximately 38% (placebo recorded at 20%) over 5 weeks, resulting in weight loss.
Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan
Notes for this Study:
900mg 5-HTP for up to 12 weeks was associated with greater weight loss than placebo and attributed to the reduction in food intake.
Effects of oral 5-hydroxy-tryptophan on energy intake and macronutrient selection in non-insulin dependent diabetic patients
Notes for this Study:
2 weeks of 750mg 5-HTP in overweight women and men was associated with less food intake mostly from carbohydrates, and due to this minor but significant weight loss
In particular scroll down to the section on appetite, the first subsection in the neurology section.
These studies use doses far above what would be seen in typical recommendations and occasionally result in some degree of nausea. They are however of very short origin.
One animal study has linked doses as low as 100mg/kg bodyweight with seratonin syndrome in lab animals. My proposed dosing is WAY below this figure however it may be worth considering surface area conversions for comparing animal and human doses… This would bump one of the studies dosage of 8mg/kg to 96% of the dose believed to cause serotonin syndrome… That being said the ONLY complaint of human test subjects was episodial nausea which apparently subsided after week 6.
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?[/quote]
5-htp is not an appetite suppressant. It’s main effect is increased serotonin which elevates mood (and even then, if you are not serotonic deficient, even the mood effects become not very noticeable). Using it as a diet aid is idiotic and akin to those whom uses high doses of melatonin as if melatonin was a sedative. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Get your diet dialed in first. Get through most of your cut via diet and exercise alone. When you hit the low bf %'s in which metabolism is most likely going to slow down and calories may have to be even stricter, add in a fat burner (cheap and super effective is of course EC).[/quote]
From: 5-HTP — Health benefits, dosage, safety, side-effects, and more | Supplements - Examine
The effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior in obese adult female subjects
Notes for this Study:
8mg/kg 5-HTP in obese women (BMI 30-40) was associated with a reduction of calories by approximately 38% (placebo recorded at 20%) over 5 weeks, resulting in weight loss.
Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan
Notes for this Study:
900mg 5-HTP for up to 12 weeks was associated with greater weight loss than placebo and attributed to the reduction in food intake.
Effects of oral 5-hydroxy-tryptophan on energy intake and macronutrient selection in non-insulin dependent diabetic patients
Notes for this Study:
2 weeks of 750mg 5-HTP in overweight women and men was associated with less food intake mostly from carbohydrates, and due to this minor but significant weight loss
In particular scroll down to the section on appetite, the first subsection in the neurology section.
These studies use doses far above what would be seen in typical recommendations and occasionally result in some degree of nausea. They are however of very short origin.
One animal study has linked doses as low as 100mg/kg bodyweight with seratonin syndrome in lab animals. My proposed dosing is WAY below this figure however it may be worth considering surface area conversions for comparing animal and human doses… This would bump one of the studies dosage of 8mg/kg to 96% of the dose believed to cause serotonin syndrome… That being said the ONLY complaint of human test subjects was episodial nausea which apparently subsided after week 6. [/quote]
Again, completely wrong tool for the job. You’re messing with brain chemistry in a big way just to alter the brain reward system for food.
Just like how serotonin deficiency is possibly linked to MANY disorders including serious depression and I think possibly autism, going overboard with serotonin can also have serious effects which may not be acute and may not even be noticed in the short term and in the long term symptoms may not even necessarily appear to be linked to the serotonin imbalance.
NAUSEA btw is a SYMPTOM of serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome is NOT SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
You SERIOUSLY lack researching skills on this topic and it’s quite evident that you are just looking for a quick way to cut weight. There is no quick and easy way to cut weight. You need to make lifestyle changes, changes in habits. The brains rewards system to food especially carbs CAN be changed and it doesn’t even take that long to do it, but you’re going to have to take action by making dietary changes and sticking with it for a prolonged period of time in order for those changes to take effect. Mega dosing 5-htp causing symptoms of serotonin syndrome is NOT the way to go.
Do I really need to mention that your mega dosing idea could also lead to down regulation of serotonin receptors? Do I really have to point out how that is also most likely not a good idea?
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?[/quote]
5-htp is not an appetite suppressant. It’s main effect is increased serotonin which elevates mood (and even then, if you are not serotonic deficient, even the mood effects become not very noticeable). Using it as a diet aid is idiotic and akin to those whom uses high doses of melatonin as if melatonin was a sedative. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Get your diet dialed in first. Get through most of your cut via diet and exercise alone. When you hit the low bf %'s in which metabolism is most likely going to slow down and calories may have to be even stricter, add in a fat burner (cheap and super effective is of course EC).[/quote]
From: 5-HTP — Health benefits, dosage, safety, side-effects, and more | Supplements - Examine
The effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior in obese adult female subjects
Notes for this Study:
8mg/kg 5-HTP in obese women (BMI 30-40) was associated with a reduction of calories by approximately 38% (placebo recorded at 20%) over 5 weeks, resulting in weight loss.
Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan
Notes for this Study:
900mg 5-HTP for up to 12 weeks was associated with greater weight loss than placebo and attributed to the reduction in food intake.
Effects of oral 5-hydroxy-tryptophan on energy intake and macronutrient selection in non-insulin dependent diabetic patients
Notes for this Study:
2 weeks of 750mg 5-HTP in overweight women and men was associated with less food intake mostly from carbohydrates, and due to this minor but significant weight loss
In particular scroll down to the section on appetite, the first subsection in the neurology section.
These studies use doses far above what would be seen in typical recommendations and occasionally result in some degree of nausea. They are however of very short origin.
One animal study has linked doses as low as 100mg/kg bodyweight with seratonin syndrome in lab animals. My proposed dosing is WAY below this figure however it may be worth considering surface area conversions for comparing animal and human doses… This would bump one of the studies dosage of 8mg/kg to 96% of the dose believed to cause serotonin syndrome… That being said the ONLY complaint of human test subjects was episodial nausea which apparently subsided after week 6. [/quote]
Again, completely wrong tool for the job. You’re messing with brain chemistry in a big way just to alter the brain reward system for food.
Just like how serotonin deficiency is possibly linked to MANY disorders including serious depression and I think possibly autism, going overboard with serotonin can also have serious effects which may not be acute and may not even be noticed in the short term and in the long term symptoms may not even necessarily appear to be linked to the serotonin imbalance.
NAUSEA btw is a SYMPTOM of serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome is NOT SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
You SERIOUSLY lack researching skills on this topic and it’s quite evident that you are just looking for a quick way to cut weight. There is no quick and easy way to cut weight. You need to make lifestyle changes, changes in habits. The brains rewards system to food especially carbs CAN be changed and it doesn’t even take that long to do it, but you’re going to have to take action by making dietary changes and sticking with it for a prolonged period of time in order for those changes to take effect. Mega dosing 5-htp causing symptoms of serotonin syndrome is NOT the way to go.
Do I really need to mention that your mega dosing idea could also lead to down regulation of serotonin receptors? Do I really have to point out how that is also most likely not a good idea?[/quote]
Kind of confused as to why you’ve jumped to the conclusion that I’m some chump looking for a magic bullet diet pill. Weight changes on this compound are typically modest (not associated with rapid weight loss).
I quite enjoy science and generally getting my geek on - just tying up an MSci in Physics and my research methods haven’t appeared to hold me back yet.
I would also like to know what kind of doses you believe to be a) normal and b) mega-dosing for this supplement?
With regards to down regulation of serotonin receptors (which is classically associated with depression, anxiety, OCD, etc), the studies above that do mention psychological effects suggest that at the doses used there was little to no impact during and after the dosing protocol.
From my admittedly limited knowledge of neurology and biochemical pathways - serotonin syndrome only looks like an issue when 5-HTP is highly dosed alongside SSRI’s. I am not on any medication.
I’m not searching for an argument by the way. I would quite like a discussion that is, where possible, backed up via studies. That being said each to their own and I value your comments regardless.
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
[quote]kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]benmoore wrote:
I’m aware of this although I do appreciate the suggestions. I was curious about what dosing would be considered safe for short (6-12 week) durations (for appetite suppression effects - which is the main appeal of this)?[/quote]
5-htp is not an appetite suppressant. It’s main effect is increased serotonin which elevates mood (and even then, if you are not serotonic deficient, even the mood effects become not very noticeable). Using it as a diet aid is idiotic and akin to those whom uses high doses of melatonin as if melatonin was a sedative. You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Get your diet dialed in first. Get through most of your cut via diet and exercise alone. When you hit the low bf %'s in which metabolism is most likely going to slow down and calories may have to be even stricter, add in a fat burner (cheap and super effective is of course EC).[/quote]
From: 5-HTP — Health benefits, dosage, safety, side-effects, and more | Supplements - Examine
The effects of oral 5-hydroxytryptophan administration on feeding behavior in obese adult female subjects
Notes for this Study:
8mg/kg 5-HTP in obese women (BMI 30-40) was associated with a reduction of calories by approximately 38% (placebo recorded at 20%) over 5 weeks, resulting in weight loss.
Eating behavior and adherence to dietary prescriptions in obese adult subjects treated with 5-hydroxytryptophan
Notes for this Study:
900mg 5-HTP for up to 12 weeks was associated with greater weight loss than placebo and attributed to the reduction in food intake.
Effects of oral 5-hydroxy-tryptophan on energy intake and macronutrient selection in non-insulin dependent diabetic patients
Notes for this Study:
2 weeks of 750mg 5-HTP in overweight women and men was associated with less food intake mostly from carbohydrates, and due to this minor but significant weight loss
In particular scroll down to the section on appetite, the first subsection in the neurology section.
These studies use doses far above what would be seen in typical recommendations and occasionally result in some degree of nausea. They are however of very short origin.
One animal study has linked doses as low as 100mg/kg bodyweight with seratonin syndrome in lab animals. My proposed dosing is WAY below this figure however it may be worth considering surface area conversions for comparing animal and human doses… This would bump one of the studies dosage of 8mg/kg to 96% of the dose believed to cause serotonin syndrome… That being said the ONLY complaint of human test subjects was episodial nausea which apparently subsided after week 6. [/quote]
Again, completely wrong tool for the job. You’re messing with brain chemistry in a big way just to alter the brain reward system for food.
Just like how serotonin deficiency is possibly linked to MANY disorders including serious depression and I think possibly autism, going overboard with serotonin can also have serious effects which may not be acute and may not even be noticed in the short term and in the long term symptoms may not even necessarily appear to be linked to the serotonin imbalance.
NAUSEA btw is a SYMPTOM of serotonin syndrome. Serotonin syndrome is NOT SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
You SERIOUSLY lack researching skills on this topic and it’s quite evident that you are just looking for a quick way to cut weight. There is no quick and easy way to cut weight. You need to make lifestyle changes, changes in habits. The brains rewards system to food especially carbs CAN be changed and it doesn’t even take that long to do it, but you’re going to have to take action by making dietary changes and sticking with it for a prolonged period of time in order for those changes to take effect. Mega dosing 5-htp causing symptoms of serotonin syndrome is NOT the way to go.
Do I really need to mention that your mega dosing idea could also lead to down regulation of serotonin receptors? Do I really have to point out how that is also most likely not a good idea?[/quote]
Kind of confused as to why you’ve jumped to the conclusion that I’m some chump looking for a magic bullet diet pill. Weight changes on this compound are typically modest (not associated with rapid weight loss).
I quite enjoy science and generally getting my geek on - just tying up an MSci in Physics and my research methods haven’t appeared to hold me back yet.
I would also like to know what kind of doses you believe to be a) normal and b) mega-dosing for this supplement?
With regards to down regulation of serotonin receptors (which is classically associated with depression, anxiety, OCD, etc), the studies above that do mention psychological effects suggest that at the doses used there was little to no impact during and after the dosing protocol.
From my admittedly limited knowledge of neurology and biochemical pathways - serotonin syndrome only looks like an issue when 5-HTP is highly dosed alongside SSRI’s. I am not on any medication.
I’m not searching for an argument by the way. I would quite like a discussion that is, where possible, backed up via studies. That being said each to their own and I value your comments regardless. [/quote]
The “studies” you refer to, even on the Examine page, they’ve pointed out that the studies were questionable to begin with. You’re lacking serious reading skills here.
Serotonin syndrome actually hasn’t really been noted with 5-htp supplementation even with an MAOI. HOWEVER, the fact that one can get nauseous or headaches from 5-htp and KNOWING that 5-htp is basically exogenous serotonin which is a VERY important neurotransmitter, should already indicate to you that this is not something you want to play around so fool heartedly.
50-200 mg doses of 5-htp is more than sufficient. If you don’t feel much of anything from such a dose, then you shouldn’t really be using it as it would indicate that you don’t have a serotonin deficiency (people with some deficiency in serotonin are the ones that would feel a mood lift the most acutely).
You say you enjoy scientific discussion and you say that you want things backed up with studies, yet you keep pointing to the studies you point to and the Examine page you are referring to, whilst completely ignoring the fact that even on the Examine page, they clearly stated that the studies were 1) questionable 2) they alluded to questionable studies/results by stating the following which they even highlighted: Currently this is weakly supported (two studies suggest it just reduces all caloric intake indiscriminately) although at least one study suggests it might selectively reduce carbohydrate intake.
You are not grasping the importance of the 5-htp being studied on the obese population. People are obese often times due to an unhealthy connection with food. Their brain’s reward system for food is completely screwed up and thus they tend to overeat to not just satisfy hunger but for a mental satisfaction. They have wacky brain chemistry at that point in which, ok, it’s plausible to see 5-htp being effective… or you know, proper diet for a period of time instead, which would most likely yield a long lasting rewiring of the brains reward system for food.
Lastly, from the same Examine page:
“With normal dosages of 5-HTP (typically around 300mg a day), however, side effects and the serotonin syndrome have not been observed in humans even with coingestion of anti-depressants such as MAOIs.[57][58][59][60][61] Due to the limited size of the samples in said studies, however, it is suggested that these results be seen as preliminary.”
What does that tell us? That long term chronic use of 5-htp or considerably higher doses than the norm (where 200 mg’s is already considered a pretty high dose), nobody know what would happen. It really has not been studied. With 5-htp essentially acting as an exogenous source of the very important neurotransmitter, serotonin, it’s not something you want to go super dosing or using as a diet aid especially when again, proper dieting would go a MUCH longer way and there are also things that are proven to be incredibly effective such as EC.