Not Sure What I Want to Run

Pharma / TRT
1

I need to drop some bodyfat, but I also need to add strength. (Doesn’t every cycle proposal start with this exact line? lol) My last cycle was all geared towards fat-loss and was very successful. I liked how I looked, even though I was a tad on the small side. The only other thing I didn’t like about it was the lack of strength gains. I guess I’m aiming to go somewhere in the middle.

Last cycle was Test prop/Tren Ace/Winny/Clen(only for 2 weeks)/T3

I’m thinking about using T3 again, but with albuterol this time around- and at lower doses. I had the T3 up around 100/120mcg at the highpoint. Maybe keep it around half of that this time. I kind of feel like I don’t want to use winstrol this time around. I know Mast would be a good replacement but I’m going to run longer esters this time to cut down on the amount of inj. each week so the amount being inj. each time is already going to be at least 2ml, so adding mast. would be pushing it. Thinking about maybe giving anavar a go this time.

Really on the fence about whether or not I want to run Tren this time too. I like some aspects of it, but last time towards the end I had the worst endurance ever. It was almost humorous. Thinking about just doing straight test. Also considering dbol for strength. Maybe looking into GHRP-6.

I dunno. Looking for feedback. …from people with joindates prior to 2012.

2

You’re not going to gain optimally during a calorie deficiency. This isn’t to say some body recomp effects aren’t possible. However, you should focus on either strength gains or fat loss.

500mg cyp
100mg drol
20iu R
25mcg

overall calorie intake is more important than specific supplements. if you want to do a bulk cycle eat a lot.

3

If you want to build strength, I don’t know why you would ditch the tren…pretty much everyone I know has maintained or increased strength while cutting with tren. I don’t remember your dosages from last time, but have you tried the lowish test, highish tren approach? It seems that combo along with some T3 would have you shedding bodyfat and gaining strength like crazy.

4

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
If you want to build strength, I don’t know why you would ditch the tren…pretty much everyone I know has maintained or increased strength while cutting with tren. I don’t remember your dosages from last time, but have you tried the lowish test, highish tren approach? It seems that combo along with some T3 would have you shedding bodyfat and gaining strength like crazy.[/quote]

I already said why I didn’t want to use tren this time around. Yes, I know how to run tren (high tren/low test) I was doing something around 600/200. Sorry, but anytime you use T3 you’re not going to be “gaining strength like crazy”.

I’m actually thinking about running this combination blend now which is 200mg/ml- 50mg test prop, 75mg tren ace, 75mg mast prop. Maybe @ 300mg/EOD. In combination with anavar or winny. (And eventually T3/maybe albuterol)

I have a shitload of Test E leftover that I want to use/get rid of. So I’m thinking maybe start with that and dbol, then switch over to this cutting cycle.

5

Which is why i said I dont remember what doses you were running of each compound–indicating that the lowish test and highish tren may not result in the shitty conditioning that you experienced last time. For a lot of guys its not a problem. And if your T3 isn’t too high, you can still gain strength while cutting with Tren. Key is obviously combining each in the right proportions.

6

Test Long Ester + As much anavar as you can afford (atleast 40mg+ a day) + Test Suspension 2-3x a week, whenever your feeling tired/overtrained, or pre-workout for legs.

Suspension noticeably leans me out, even when in caloric surplus. It’s the one bro-science ‘fact’ I actually fully agree with.

Otherwise EQ has always leaned me out, even in caloric surplus. That would be more inline with your desire for low injection frequency. Run EQ with long ester T and an Oral of your choice, or throw suspension into the mix. That should lean you out nicely along with some heft strength gains.

Cheers,

-PTD

7

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Test Long Ester + As much anavar as you can afford (atleast 40mg+ a day) + Test Suspension 2-3x a week, whenever your feeling tired/overtrained, or pre-workout for legs.

Suspension noticeably leans me out, even when in caloric surplus. It’s the one bro-science ‘fact’ I actually fully agree with.

Otherwise EQ has always leaned me out, even in caloric surplus. That would be more inline with your desire for low injection frequency. Run EQ with long ester T and an Oral of your choice, or throw suspension into the mix. That should lean you out nicely along with some heft strength gains.

Cheers,

-PTD [/quote]

I’m kind of torn now, but I feel like I have it narrowed down to two pretty specific cycles.

What if it was like a test iso/enth/cyp mix with EQ + anavar + albuterol/T3 (instead of Enth + suspension)?

The other cycle would be:

Prop/TrenA/mast + anavar + a little albuterol/T3

My concern with the first cycle is elevated BP from the EQ. I wouldn’t be able to run Enth, EQ, and Dbol/anavar all together. My BP gets pretty high on Enth + dbol alone.
My concern with the second one, really is only the Masteron and possible MPB sides. I’ve run winstrol three times? and haven’t had any hairloss sides, so it’s kind of like why mess with a sure thing, you know?

Would it be at all crazy to try to combine these two- Maybe run the Test mix (or just Test Enth) + EQ for 6 weeks and then run the Prop/Tren/Mast + anavar + albuterol/T3 for 7ish weeks?

In my mind it seems like a good idea…

8

If your running T400 and EQ, which is what I generally recommend for a 2nd/3rd cycle, run them both for 12 weeks, with a stacked frontload. Anavar will mix in nicely. Be conservative with your pre-workout dose and carbs/sugar intake, EQ is the most powerful ‘pump’ injectable imo, and combined with Anavar, if its real, would actually be really painful in the calves, back and forearms.

The elevated BP will be very similar to high dose DBol, some ASA before bed, or donating blood mid cycle will help alot in this regard.

Run the shorties first, if you already have them, instead of frontloading.

Keep your T3 dose low. We’ve disagreed on this in the past, but trust me, if 25mcg isn’t having a pronounced effect, then look to your diet, not at more thermogenics. Too much T3 will ruin an androgen only cycle.

If you haven’t experienced exo-DHT induced alopecia, then theres no reason to believe you will going forward. Either you have A5R expression in your scalp, or you don’t. I love me my strong androgens and I can barely get a comb through my hair lol, its like my 5th best feature.

Cheers,
-PTD

9

There is no replacement for diet… sorry. Steroids are not a magical fat cutting drug. You will get better results from a diet alone than staying with your crappy food and jumping on aas.

10

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
If your running T400 and EQ, which is what I generally recommend for a 2nd/3rd cycle, run them both for 12 weeks, with a stacked frontload. Anavar will mix in nicely. Be conservative with your pre-workout dose and carbs/sugar intake, EQ is the most powerful ‘pump’ injectable imo, and combined with Anavar, if its real, would actually be really painful in the calves, back and forearms.

The elevated BP will be very similar to high dose DBol, some ASA before bed, or donating blood mid cycle will help alot in this regard.

Run the shorties first, if you already have them, instead of frontloading.

Keep your T3 dose low. We’ve disagreed on this in the past, but trust me, if 25mcg isn’t having a pronounced effect, then look to your diet, not at more thermogenics. Too much T3 will ruin an androgen only cycle.

If you haven’t experienced exo-DHT induced alopecia, then theres no reason to believe you will going forward. Either you have A5R expression in your scalp, or you don’t. I love me my strong androgens and I can barely get a comb through my hair lol, its like my 5th best feature.

Cheers,
-PTD [/quote]

This isn’t my second or third cycle, so I don’t see how that’s relevant. It sounds like your reasoning for running ‘shorties’ (i.e. the cutting part of the cycle) first is only to avoid front-loading rather than anything else.
25mcg of T3 is a practically a REPLACEMENT dose. I don’t need to “trust you”- that’s the definition of broscience. That’s tantamount to running a cycle of Test @ 100mg/wk. It defeats the entire point. Show me where you’ve ever read anything about T3 that is contrary to what I’m saying.
I’m not going to run 100+mcg, but I’m not going to run a replacement dose either.

11

[quote]13B-T wrote:
There is no replacement for diet… sorry. Steroids are not a magical fat cutting drug. You will get better results from a diet alone than staying with your crappy food and jumping on aas.[/quote]

There is no replacement for stupid either. Seriously, pick my diet apart and tell me what’s wrong with it. After you’re done slamming your head against the wall and you eventually figured out that diet was not discussed anywhere in this thread you can apologize and do everyone a favor by staying off these forums altogether. I already proved you a fool and complete novice in your own thread. I can’t believe somebody who has ran only the most basic cycle possible would come in here and start advocating their ignorance and showcasing their lack of reading and comprehension skills.

12

[quote]Toby Queef wrote:

[quote]13B-T wrote:
There is no replacement for diet… sorry. Steroids are not a magical fat cutting drug. You will get better results from a diet alone than staying with your crappy food and jumping on aas.[/quote]

There is no replacement for stupid either. Seriously, pick my diet apart and tell me what’s wrong with it. After you’re done slamming your head against the wall and you eventually figured out that diet was not discussed anywhere in this thread you can apologize and do everyone a favor by staying off these forums altogether. I already proved you a fool and complete novice in your own thread. I can’t believe somebody who has ran only the most basic cycle possible would come in here and start advocating their ignorance and showcasing their lack of reading and comprehension skills.[/quote]

A heart surgeon doesn’t have to undergo coronary artery bypass surgery to know what he is doing does he? You said you were trying to get rid of fat… aka diet not in check.

13

[quote]13B-T wrote:

[quote]Toby Queef wrote:

[quote]13B-T wrote:
There is no replacement for diet… sorry. Steroids are not a magical fat cutting drug. You will get better results from a diet alone than staying with your crappy food and jumping on aas.[/quote]

There is no replacement for stupid either. Seriously, pick my diet apart and tell me what’s wrong with it. After you’re done slamming your head against the wall and you eventually figured out that diet was not discussed anywhere in this thread you can apologize and do everyone a favor by staying off these forums altogether. I already proved you a fool and complete novice in your own thread. I can’t believe somebody who has ran only the most basic cycle possible would come in here and start advocating their ignorance and showcasing their lack of reading and comprehension skills.[/quote]

A heart surgeon doesn’t have to undergo coronary artery bypass surgery to know what he is doing does he? You said you were trying to get rid of fat… aka diet not in check.[/quote]

What are you the king of dieting? How do you know what his diet is, it could be perfect, for some people it’s a little harder to get rid of the last little bit of fat, don’t be so quick to judge his diet when you have nothing to judge upon

14

sigh

15

Running shorties while longer esters load is commonplace.

You’re understanding of T3 is piss poor. Do your own fucking research. Your T3 is PROBABLY underdosed and your diet is DEFINITELY shit.

You’re a petulant asshole.

You’re the first T-Nationer to make it to my /ignore list.

Congratulations and GTFO!

16

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Running shorties while longer esters load is commonplace.

You’re understanding of T3 is piss poor. Do your own fucking research. Your T3 is PROBABLY underdosed and your diet is DEFINITELY shit.

You’re a petulant asshole.

You’re the first T-Nationer to make it to my /ignore list.

Congratulations and GTFO! [/quote]

I already did my research. That’s why I said show me where you’re reading this because I’ve never seen it. …And you failed to do so. Is it because you’re lazy or because you couldn’t find anything to back up your claims? If you won’t take my word, who’s would you take? Bill Roberts? Here’s a post he made nearly a decade ago that’s still easy to find:

"A mere 12.5 mcg/day, which is at most only half-replacement. I intitially recommended cycling off, to be completely certain not to harm anyone with my advice, but as for myself, was pretty sure it could be used indefinitely. I used it for 6 months or so straight (did not make a record of the dates though so the number is not precise) with zero problems. Not one person has had the slightest problem. Yet the benefits are obviously noticeable. I’d say it is worth, all else staying the same, 0.5 lb of fat per week if not really dieting, and more than that if thyroid is otherwise depressed from dieting.

Actually it may be better than this, because when not really dieting, I ate considerably more calories, I would think 500 per day extra or more, yet slowly lost fat, so that would work out to more like 1 lb per week. But in early weeks of dieting, where fat loss would be good anyway and thyroid was not yet depressed, it was not worth 1 extra lb – in other words, it didn’t push a 2 lb per week diet to 3 lb per week, but only 2.5. I don’t know the reason for the apparent discrepancy. "

source: T3 question for Bill Roberts - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

So if 12.5mcg is merely a half-replacement dose at best- by doing some remedial math, you can see 25mcg is considered a replacement dose, which is exactly what I said. He also discusses using T3 up to 100mcg.

Need more proof? Here’s another post by Bill Roberts:

"While I wish I had measured data on amount of suppression at that dose, I don’t. However, based on how the body works, supplying an amount equivalent to 1/2 what the body normally produces simply cannot produce a high degree of inhibition. I would guess 25% but certainly considerably less than 50%. In any case no fat rebound effect is seen when you stop, so there seems to be no issue at all. (This is in contrast to high dose use.)

Yet fat loss is very significantly increased.

As to whether it works “better” cutting or bulking, I guess
it depends on priorities… to me it’s better when cutting
because it can allow you to achieve things you otherwise
could not, or achieve them much faster, while in bulking
with steroids, you can approximately achieve the same thing
as fast without it. If GH is being used then the thryoid
supplementation can be more important when bulking."

source: Bill Roberts T3 Recomendations - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

If you read the OP you’ll see that the poster mentioned taking T3 @ 12.5mcg- which again Bill refers to as “half of what the body normally produces”.

Furthermore he says that (while at least on androgens) 25mcg isn’t enough to cause muscle loss (or significant muscle loss)- yet when I was dosing it higher than that (75-100mcg) I DID experience slight muscle loss which throws your ‘underdosed T3’ theory out the window. Plus I used two different kinds/brands of T3- tabs and liquid, both of which produced similar results at the same levels.

And then to top it off, you proclaim my diet is definitely shit-…the same diet that I again, never posted anywhere. If you come across it in this thread let me know. You can throw in some more bro-science at that point. I’m thinking maybe something along the lines of 6 small meals a day is the only proven method for teh lean gainz? Thanks bud.

17

[quote]Toby Queef wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Running shorties while longer esters load is commonplace.

You’re understanding of T3 is piss poor. Do your own fucking research. Your T3 is PROBABLY underdosed and your diet is DEFINITELY shit.

You’re a petulant asshole.

You’re the first T-Nationer to make it to my /ignore list.

Congratulations and GTFO! [/quote]

I already did my research. That’s why I said show me where you’re reading this because I’ve never seen it. …And you failed to do so. Is it because you’re lazy or because you couldn’t find anything to back up your claims? If you won’t take my word, who’s would you take? Bill Roberts? Here’s a post he made nearly a decade ago that’s still easy to find:

"A mere 12.5 mcg/day, which is at most only half-replacement. I intitially recommended cycling off, to be completely certain not to harm anyone with my advice, but as for myself, was pretty sure it could be used indefinitely. I used it for 6 months or so straight (did not make a record of the dates though so the number is not precise) with zero problems. Not one person has had the slightest problem. Yet the benefits are obviously noticeable. I’d say it is worth, all else staying the same, 0.5 lb of fat per week if not really dieting, and more than that if thyroid is otherwise depressed from dieting.

Actually it may be better than this, because when not really dieting, I ate considerably more calories, I would think 500 per day extra or more, yet slowly lost fat, so that would work out to more like 1 lb per week. But in early weeks of dieting, where fat loss would be good anyway and thyroid was not yet depressed, it was not worth 1 extra lb – in other words, it didn’t push a 2 lb per week diet to 3 lb per week, but only 2.5. I don’t know the reason for the apparent discrepancy. "

source: T3 question for Bill Roberts - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

So if 12.5mcg is merely a half-replacement dose at best- by doing some remedial math, you can see 25mcg is considered a replacement dose, which is exactly what I said. He also discusses using T3 up to 100mcg.

Need more proof? Here’s another post by Bill Roberts:

"While I wish I had measured data on amount of suppression at that dose, I don’t. However, based on how the body works, supplying an amount equivalent to 1/2 what the body normally produces simply cannot produce a high degree of inhibition. I would guess 25% but certainly considerably less than 50%. In any case no fat rebound effect is seen when you stop, so there seems to be no issue at all. (This is in contrast to high dose use.)

Yet fat loss is very significantly increased.

As to whether it works “better” cutting or bulking, I guess
it depends on priorities… to me it’s better when cutting
because it can allow you to achieve things you otherwise
could not, or achieve them much faster, while in bulking
with steroids, you can approximately achieve the same thing
as fast without it. If GH is being used then the thryoid
supplementation can be more important when bulking."

source: Bill Roberts T3 Recomendations - Competitive Bodybuilding - Forums - T Nation

If you read the OP you’ll see that the poster mentioned taking T3 @ 12.5mcg- which again Bill refers to as “half of what the body normally produces”.

Furthermore he says that (while at least on androgens) 25mcg isn’t enough to cause muscle loss (or significant muscle loss)- yet when I was dosing it higher than that (75-100mcg) I DID experience slight muscle loss which throws your ‘underdosed T3’ theory out the window. Plus I used two different kinds/brands of T3- tabs and liquid, both of which produced similar results at the same levels.

And then to top it off, you proclaim my diet is definitely shit-…the same diet that I again, never posted anywhere. If you come across it in this thread let me know. You can throw in some more bro-science at that point. I’m thinking maybe something along the lines of 6 small meals a day is the only proven method for teh lean gainz? Thanks bud.[/quote]

Still waiting for your response ptdave. Or is this your way of acknowledging your wrong?

18

I believe he already said he was Going to /ignore you before you responded, so i wouldt hold my breath for more argument as up for
It as you may be.

19

[quote]putter2712 wrote:
I believe he already said he was Going to /ignore you before you responded, so i wouldt hold my breath for more argument as up for
It as you may be. [/quote]

Doesn’t necessarily mean he actually did though…

Quoting so PTD can get a chance to read this:

"
I already did my research. That’s why I said show me where you’re reading this because I’ve never seen it. …And you failed to do so. Is it because you’re lazy or because you couldn’t find anything to back up your claims? If you won’t take my word, who’s would you take? Bill Roberts? Here’s a post he made nearly a decade ago that’s still easy to find:

"A mere 12.5 mcg/day, which is at most only half-replacement. I intitially recommended cycling off, to be completely certain not to harm anyone with my advice, but as for myself, was pretty sure it could be used indefinitely. I used it for 6 months or so straight (did not make a record of the dates though so the number is not precise) with zero problems. Not one person has had the slightest problem. Yet the benefits are obviously noticeable. I’d say it is worth, all else staying the same, 0.5 lb of fat per week if not really dieting, and more than that if thyroid is otherwise depressed from dieting.

Actually it may be better than this, because when not really dieting, I ate considerably more calories, I would think 500 per day extra or more, yet slowly lost fat, so that would work out to more like 1 lb per week. But in early weeks of dieting, where fat loss would be good anyway and thyroid was not yet depressed, it was not worth 1 extra lb – in other words, it didn’t push a 2 lb per week diet to 3 lb per week, but only 2.5. I don’t know the reason for the apparent discrepancy. "

source: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...oberts?pageNo=0

So if 12.5mcg is merely a half-replacement dose at best- by doing some remedial math, you can see 25mcg is considered a replacement dose, which is exactly what I said. He also discusses using T3 up to 100mcg.

Need more proof? Here’s another post by Bill Roberts:

"While I wish I had measured data on amount of suppression at that dose, I don’t. However, based on how the body works, supplying an amount equivalent to 1/2 what the body normally produces simply cannot produce a high degree of inhibition. I would guess 25% but certainly considerably less than 50%. In any case no fat rebound effect is seen when you stop, so there seems to be no issue at all. (This is in contrast to high dose use.)

Yet fat loss is very significantly increased.

As to whether it works “better” cutting or bulking, I guess
it depends on priorities… to me it’s better when cutting
because it can allow you to achieve things you otherwise
could not, or achieve them much faster, while in bulking
with steroids, you can approximately achieve the same thing
as fast without it. If GH is being used then the thryoid
supplementation can be more important when bulking."

source: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...ations?pageNo=0

If you read the OP you’ll see that the poster mentioned taking T3 @ 12.5mcg- which again Bill refers to as “half of what the body normally produces”.

Furthermore he says that (while at least on androgens) 25mcg isn’t enough to cause muscle loss (or significant muscle loss)- yet when I was dosing it higher than that (75-100mcg) I DID experience slight muscle loss which throws your ‘underdosed T3’ theory out the window. Plus I used two different kinds/brands of T3- tabs and liquid, both of which produced similar results at the same levels.

And then to top it off, you proclaim my diet is definitely shit-…the same diet that I again, never posted anywhere. If you come across it in this thread let me know. You can throw in some more bro-science at that point. I’m thinking maybe something along the lines of 6 small meals a day is the only proven method for teh lean gainz? Thanks bud. "

20

Sure, why not.

Okay, so you want to lose some fat, and gain strength, and you want to run more than 25mcg/day of T3… Good luck with that.

Secondly, a natural dose of T3 is released throughout the day, whereas a one time dose of T3 will have a pronounced peak (far beyond natural levels) about 40 minutes after ingestion, causing a large spike in cellular metabolism.

Thirdly the feedback cycle is nothing like the HPTA with AAS, where theres only ‘partially’ and ‘completely’ suppressed. The Thyroid feedback mechanism is extremely delayed, and doesn’t actually ‘measure’ blood serum T3 levels the same way as the HPTA does with Androgens.

Lastly, I was being a bit of a douche, but anyone that uses T3 and Tren, and doesn’t ‘quite get the results they want’ has a serious hole in their diet or training.

Good luck,
-PTD