[quote]inkaddict wrote:
CG, a lot of people need to buy it, and need to actually read the whole thing, instead of trying to figure out the program through various posts online, or buying the book and just skimming through it. There’s a shit ton of great info in that book, more so than just the set/rep scheme[/quote]
plus it’ll stimulate the economy in that special way…
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]irish20cb wrote:
Huh…I’ll have to re-read it, but I’m pretty sure you add 5 pounds to your estimated upper body maxes, 10 to your estimated lower body maxes, and then recalculate the percentages based on that. Either way I think it comes out to be just about the same weight wise…[/quote]
Sorry, I mis-understood you. I think what you are doing is fine (as you say, it ends up being pretty much the same anyway). Its actually what I do as well.
I thought you meant this (which Jim obviously considers a bad idea):
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=120764&tid=164[/quote]
Irish is doing what is recommended. In page 27 Jim says ‘In the second four week phase, the lifter will increase his maxes no more than 5 pounds per upper body lift, and 10 pounds for lower body lifts.’ Copied and Pasted
Alot of people really do need to buy the book
[/quote]
I own the book. Once again: I mis-understood what irish20cb meant when he said he was recalculating his maxes.
And FYI, raising your “max” vs. your “training max” will result in slightly different rates of increase.[/quote]
I know you did. I wasn’t really directing that at you. Sorry if it came off that way. I more meant it towards people who ask a lot of dumb questions about a simple program.
Also I’m not sure what you mean by ‘max’ vs ‘training max’. I’m assuming ‘training max’ is what you’re basing your percentages off of and ‘max’ is the actual most you can lift. so ‘training max’ goes up 5-10 pounds a month and ‘max’ can vary. So how can getting stronger (having a higher ‘max’) change the weights youre training with that month?
Maybe I’m confusing what you’re saying. I’ve been doing that a lot today[/quote]
No worries. I probably overreacted a bit.
With respect to max vs. training max - I raise my “max” every month by 5/10. The net effect is that the training max gets raised by 4.5/9 since it is 90%. Really not a big difference.
The reason I do this: It makes it easier to reset everything in my spreadsheet if I want to actually reset my max lifts after I’ve stalled.
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]irish20cb wrote:
Huh…I’ll have to re-read it, but I’m pretty sure you add 5 pounds to your estimated upper body maxes, 10 to your estimated lower body maxes, and then recalculate the percentages based on that. Either way I think it comes out to be just about the same weight wise…[/quote]
Sorry, I mis-understood you. I think what you are doing is fine (as you say, it ends up being pretty much the same anyway). Its actually what I do as well.
I thought you meant this (which Jim obviously considers a bad idea):
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=120764&tid=164[/quote]
Irish is doing what is recommended. In page 27 Jim says ‘In the second four week phase, the lifter will increase his maxes no more than 5 pounds per upper body lift, and 10 pounds for lower body lifts.’ Copied and Pasted
Alot of people really do need to buy the book
[/quote]
I own the book. Once again: I mis-understood what irish20cb meant when he said he was recalculating his maxes.
And FYI, raising your “max” vs. your “training max” will result in slightly different rates of increase.[/quote]
I know you did. I wasn’t really directing that at you. Sorry if it came off that way. I more meant it towards people who ask a lot of dumb questions about a simple program.
Also I’m not sure what you mean by ‘max’ vs ‘training max’. I’m assuming ‘training max’ is what you’re basing your percentages off of and ‘max’ is the actual most you can lift. so ‘training max’ goes up 5-10 pounds a month and ‘max’ can vary. So how can getting stronger (having a higher ‘max’) change the weights youre training with that month?
Maybe I’m confusing what you’re saying. I’ve been doing that a lot today[/quote]
I believe it’s because training max is supposed to be no more than 90% of your actual 1 rep max, per the book. So, the way I read it, your 1RM is used to calculate your initial training max, and then you go into the system of adding the 5 or 10 pounds every month instead of re-testing the 1RM for a new training max every month. Now, my initial question doesn’t have to do with re-calculating, I’d just like another measure of progress besides the mathematical PR’s.
On a side note: Does anyone else use negatives? I’ve been adding them in to the actual 5/3/1 week myself.
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
On a side note: Does anyone else use negatives? I’ve been adding them in to the actual 5/3/1 week myself.[/quote]
I have not. How are you working them in and are they working?
I’m the kind of person who has to take fairly heavy singles on a regular basis, or else I lose the ability to lift heavy weights.
I’ve been doing the 3/5/1 variation (I think it was Matt Rhodes from EFS who first wrote about it?) where you take a few heavy singles on wks 1 and 3 of each 4 week cycle instead of the max reps set. The 2nd week (5’s) you still take a max reps set. Important thing is that the single should be fairly heavy, but you should dominate the weight - ie no grinding reps.
I still follow the recommendations of adding 5/10 lbs for upper/lower body lifts after each cycle. It’s working pretty good so far.
I guess to answer the OPs question, in the 3/5/1 variation you don’t truly max since the singles are probably 90% to 95% of your “true” max that day, however you do get to take singles 2/4 weeks per cycle, which I feel is important.
To the person who suggested negatives, that’s a very interesting idea - not sure how I would incorporate it into the routine…when I followed the Shawn Philips MM2K “add 50lbs to your bench” routine about a year ago, I did add about 44lbs to my bench in 7 wks. Perhaps it was all the negatives I did…hmm…
I’m considering running MM2K, would you recommend it? Any tips or things of that nature?
[quote]TisDrew wrote:
I’m considering running MM2K, would you recommend it? Any tips or things of that nature?[/quote]
You can certainly give it a try - it’s only 7 wks. Just keep to the recommended loading since the first week is quite easy. The failure tests allow you to adjust at your own pace.
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]irish20cb wrote:
Huh…I’ll have to re-read it, but I’m pretty sure you add 5 pounds to your estimated upper body maxes, 10 to your estimated lower body maxes, and then recalculate the percentages based on that. Either way I think it comes out to be just about the same weight wise…[/quote]
Sorry, I mis-understood you. I think what you are doing is fine (as you say, it ends up being pretty much the same anyway). Its actually what I do as well.
I thought you meant this (which Jim obviously considers a bad idea):
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=120764&tid=164[/quote]
Irish is doing what is recommended. In page 27 Jim says ‘In the second four week phase, the lifter will increase his maxes no more than 5 pounds per upper body lift, and 10 pounds for lower body lifts.’ Copied and Pasted
Alot of people really do need to buy the book
[/quote]
I own the book. Once again: I mis-understood what irish20cb meant when he said he was recalculating his maxes.
And FYI, raising your “max” vs. your “training max” will result in slightly different rates of increase.[/quote]
I know you did. I wasn’t really directing that at you. Sorry if it came off that way. I more meant it towards people who ask a lot of dumb questions about a simple program.
Also I’m not sure what you mean by ‘max’ vs ‘training max’. I’m assuming ‘training max’ is what you’re basing your percentages off of and ‘max’ is the actual most you can lift. so ‘training max’ goes up 5-10 pounds a month and ‘max’ can vary. So how can getting stronger (having a higher ‘max’) change the weights youre training with that month?
Maybe I’m confusing what you’re saying. I’ve been doing that a lot today[/quote]
I believe it’s because training max is supposed to be no more than 90% of your actual 1 rep max, per the book. So, the way I read it, your 1RM is used to calculate your initial training max, and then you go into the system of adding the 5 or 10 pounds every month instead of re-testing the 1RM for a new training max every month. Now, my initial question doesn’t have to do with re-calculating, I’d just like another measure of progress besides the mathematical PR’s.
[quote]
Right. That’s what I thought you were originally saying.
I’ve been thinking about maxing out in the near future just to see where I really am at. I’m not sure if it was my idea or someone elses but I would max out at the end of the third week during a cycle. Just do the one rep with the 95% weight, add weight, do another rep, etc. To me that seems the best way of testing your max without interfering with the program.
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.[/quote]
That’s good and all, and if you are progressing, you are progressing, no two ways about it. However there is a point where less reps becomes less reps becomes less reps, you know what I mean? I mean the whole point of 5/3/1 is rep PRs, not to mention the benefits of high rep lifting (especially in the case of the deadlift and front squat). Regardless, whatever works for you. 
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.[/quote]
That’s good and all, and if you are progressing, you are progressing, no two ways about it. However there is a point where less reps becomes less reps becomes less reps, you know what I mean? I mean the whole point of 5/3/1 is rep PRs, not to mention the benefits of high rep lifting (especially in the case of the deadlift and front squat). Regardless, whatever works for you. :)[/quote]
I thought the whole point of 5/3/1 was to keep progressing on a particular lift until you miss the required reps for the day (and you’d probably want to miss more than once to make sure you didn’t just have a bad day). If you re-set your max before that happens I think you’re missing out on an important part of the program.
[quote]TisDrew wrote:
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
On a side note: Does anyone else use negatives? I’ve been adding them in to the actual 5/3/1 week myself.[/quote]
I have not. How are you working them in and are they working?[/quote]
After the all out set, I just load on more weight, have my spotter help me get the bar into the spot I want and then try to lower the bar as slowly as possible. This is on the presses and squats… if anyone has a way to negative a deadlift I’d like to hear it.
So far, I think it’s helped add another rep or two on the next week of 3’s and the next 5/3/1 week… I haven’t noticed a difference on the week of 5 reps but I think that’s just because the work load isn’t as difficult for me through all 3 sets on those weeks.
[quote]dan81 wrote:
I guess to answer the OPs question, in the 3/5/1 variation you don’t truly max since the singles are probably 90% to 95% of your “true” max that day, however you do get to take singles 2/4 weeks per cycle, which I feel is important.
To the person who suggested negatives, that’s a very interesting idea - not sure how I would incorporate it into the routine…when I followed the Shawn Philips MM2K “add 50lbs to your bench” routine about a year ago, I did add about 44lbs to my bench in 7 wks. Perhaps it was all the negatives I did…hmm…[/quote]
I’ve done the MM2K also, and I thought it was good. I was kinda bummed to find the site with all the charts is now down. I went through that twice in 24 mos. and it was really my first introduction into negatives. I recently added them in to 5/3/1 after reading an article on this site about the benefits of adding them into one’s current workload. I also felt dumb for forgetting about them…
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.[/quote]
I agree with CG here… I know Wendler says to try for the mathematical PR every week, but I really don’t get into too much of a panic unless I’m not setting a PR sometime in the 3 work weeks.
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
[quote]dan81 wrote:
I guess to answer the OPs question, in the 3/5/1 variation you don’t truly max since the singles are probably 90% to 95% of your “true” max that day, however you do get to take singles 2/4 weeks per cycle, which I feel is important.
To the person who suggested negatives, that’s a very interesting idea - not sure how I would incorporate it into the routine…when I followed the Shawn Philips MM2K “add 50lbs to your bench” routine about a year ago, I did add about 44lbs to my bench in 7 wks. Perhaps it was all the negatives I did…hmm…[/quote]
I’ve done the MM2K also, and I thought it was good. I was kinda bummed to find the site with all the charts is now down. I went through that twice in 24 mos. and it was really my first introduction into negatives. I recently added them in to 5/3/1 after reading an article on this site about the benefits of adding them into one’s current workload. I also felt dumb for forgetting about them…[/quote]
Check here:
http://medlem.spray.se/damienthorne/MM2KBenchProgram.htm
Down the bottom of the page it has the newer version of the program.
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.[/quote]
I agree with CG here… I know Wendler says to try for the mathematical PR every week, but I really don’t get into too much of a panic unless I’m not setting a PR sometime in the 3 work weeks.[/quote]
Wendler has said numerous times that you shouldn’t try to hit a PR every time. Anyone beyond the novice level has to ‘pick their battles’.
[quote]dan81 wrote:
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
[quote]dan81 wrote:
I guess to answer the OPs question, in the 3/5/1 variation you don’t truly max since the singles are probably 90% to 95% of your “true” max that day, however you do get to take singles 2/4 weeks per cycle, which I feel is important.
To the person who suggested negatives, that’s a very interesting idea - not sure how I would incorporate it into the routine…when I followed the Shawn Philips MM2K “add 50lbs to your bench” routine about a year ago, I did add about 44lbs to my bench in 7 wks. Perhaps it was all the negatives I did…hmm…[/quote]
I’ve done the MM2K also, and I thought it was good. I was kinda bummed to find the site with all the charts is now down. I went through that twice in 24 mos. and it was really my first introduction into negatives. I recently added them in to 5/3/1 after reading an article on this site about the benefits of adding them into one’s current workload. I also felt dumb for forgetting about them…[/quote]
Check here:
http://medlem.spray.se/damienthorne/MM2KBenchProgram.htm
Down the bottom of the page it has the newer version of the program.[/quote]
Thanks a ton…
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]SRT08 wrote:
[quote]CGspot wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it depends on when you should re-max. If you’ve been doing 5/3/1 for 2-3 months, you are pretty aware of where your rep-range should be depending on the week. IMO, as soon as you see your reps deviating significantly from that rep range, whether it’s higher or lower (usually lower), time to re-max.
[/quote]
I just don’t agree. For me I want to use increasingly heavier weights not necessarily increased reps. If my reps are going down as the weights are going up that doesn’t mean i’m not getting stronger. I really don’t have that much experience with powerlifting other than 5/3/1 but I feel it’s more important to use more weight.[/quote]
I agree with CG here… I know Wendler says to try for the mathematical PR every week, but I really don’t get into too much of a panic unless I’m not setting a PR sometime in the 3 work weeks.[/quote]
Wendler has said numerous times that you shouldn’t try to hit a PR every time. Anyone beyond the novice level has to ‘pick their battles’.[/quote]
I haven’t seen that before, but I’ve been doing that on my own as mentioned above. I admit I don’t frequent the 5/3/1 boards as much as I probably should… on that note, it would be nice to hear Wendler’s opinion on the negatives.