[quote]MikeShank wrote:
when he draws his knees in during the squat, that is not a technical breakdown that he needs to work on. that is actually a very specific technique that he and a lot of other olympic lifters use, to generate more power through the lift. [/quote]
Mike,
Can you tell us more about this? I have seen this technique all the time, on at least half of the lifts I've seen on training hall videos and videotapes of the Olympics, and I always figured it had to be deliberate. How does it work, and at what weight does it become efficient to start using it?
First off, understand, that this is a natural thing to do. As an olympic lifter he is pushing his knees out wide at the botom to mimmic the clean position. On the way back up his legs come back in as a reverse action (you push, I pull, for example). This lifter is obviously able to stop his legs from bowing in too much and finish the rep (if his legs bowed in too much, the lifter would have wound up bent over like a goodmorning). The goal here is to add some more power to the lift. By the time he is able to push back out the lift is done. Amongst olympic lifters, this is very common. Some lifters often do triple bodyweight squats using the very same technique. Understand that the body is very intuitive and will buckle the knees in right at the point where the quads take over the lift.
To understand the biomechanics of this, please take this quote from Geoff Neuport, who is a member of the Charles Staley Coaching group and also one hell of a smart guy:
“So, why does your body intuitively buckle the knees? According to [my interpretation of] Gary Gray, PT, one of my favorite educators, it’s trying to [continue] recruit the glutes to prevent torso flexion (upper body falling forward as the knees straighten) and continue aiding in hip extension (standing up from the squat). As the knees move toward the midline of the body, the foot flattens, recruits (stretches) the flexor hallicus longus (which helps straighten the shin when the foot is in contact with the floor–think triple extension), the VMO, internally rotates the femur, stetches the hip external rotators, and the glutes. Remember, stretching = eccentric loading. Also, remember, unlike a football squat (90 degrees at the knee), in an olympic squat the glutes and hams are maximally stretched (loaded) in the bottom position. As the energy from them is realized on the ascent, the body switches to primarily quad dominance to finish the exercise”.
Like I said, Geoff is a pretty smart dude. That should explain your question fully, and also explain why the previous posters were incorrect in saying that he should work on pushing his knees out. Most likely those guys are powerlifters or train westside style and therefore were incorrectly applying the correct principles of their sport to a completely different movement pattern.
Mike,
Thank you, that's very useful info. I figured that it had something to do with the 'switch' from posterior-chain dominant part of the squat to the quad-dominant part.
In your experience, is this knee movement usually accompanied by a shift of the balance forward from the heel to midfoot? I often experience this shift at a certain point in my heavy front squats (just above parallel). My knees do not move in, but then I am not yet moving very heavy weights.
Ross, if you are talking about the shift in your foot as being respective of the shift from hip to quad dominance in the lift, then I would believe that to be a logical statement (heel equals hamstring, mid foot more quad).
On a lesser note, you could also be wearing the wrong shoes when you squat thereby causing a shift in your balance.
ross, to answer your other question, the knees will more likely, by percentage, begin to buckle in at loads of 85% or more.
Yes, I squat in Chuck Taylors right now (I’m going to get some real Oly shoes this summer).
I’ve gone over 85%, but my lifts are still low in general and my posterior chain strength outstrips my quads a bit, so I probably just haven’t got to the point where the knee motion happens.
Again, I appreciate the info.
ross, the oly shoes tend to be a little better. I don’t know if you have any experience with them, but most of the good ones have a little lift in the heel, great for leverage and for those of us with poor ankle mobility/flexibility. If you are using chuck’s, then I am sure you on the right track. Most people don’t know how dumb it is to be lifting in their nike’s. fucks up your lifts, your posture, you gains etc.
i have tried to find ol syle lifting shoes on line but never can find any.
any suggestions as where to find them?