[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
If you can do a pistol in both legs for the same amount of reps, your body is less likely to compesnate on one side during the squat since strength would be almost equal. [/quote]
So what are you trying to say? I see no connection to your last statement.
[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
If you can do a pistol in both legs for the same amount of reps, your body is less likely to compesnate on one side during the squat since strength would be almost equal. [/quote]
No.
Doing pistols has very little or none carryover to the squat because they are mechanically very different. I would personally say there is absolutely no correlation, but I don’t want to dismiss anything a priori.
I cannot do a full pistol with bodyweight, let alone with weights, but I still squat a lot more than most people who dabble in both (and my squat sucks FYI). I did manage to graduate to one-arm pushups (I’m just so much better at upper-body exercises), and I don’t think that has had a significant carryover to my bench (even though the movement is much closer to the bench press than the pistol is to the squat IMO).
As for the functional debate, I personally think it’s ridiculous. If you want to excel at barbell-lifting feats, develop barbell-specific strength (squats, deads, benches, OH presses). A barbell squat is “functional” for powerlifting purposes, but less “functional” for, say, strongman events. A pistol is “functional” for martial arts, but not for powerlifting.
I like the idea of functional training, I just dislike the way how it’s used by people who are crap at weightlifting (or don’t have the inclination to lift) to achieve a feeling of superiority over those who lift more than they do. Functional is whatever helps you in a given endeavour, therefore it is a flexible definition. The torque created on your knee when doing pistols (if you’re not good at doing them) can actually lead to injuries, so the “safer” argument is also wrong.
PHS, excellent effort on both of those. How did you condition your forearms to stand the pain of heavy Zerchers?
While I was abroad for a year, without access to heavy freeweights, pistols and natural glute-hams formed the basis of my leg training. Though I worked up to adding 70lbs of resistance for reps on the pistols and to doing full, unassisted NGHs, my squat dropped off by about 20%. My deadlift, however, increased by about 10%.
I would guess that the raw strength I built with the pistols and NGHs tranferred more readily to primal movements like the deadlift, as opposed the more technical squat, simply because primal moves like the deadlift take less practice. Now that I’m back in the rack, my squat is shooting up, and I think the stability and coordination that gained through building my pistols continue to contribute.
That said, it was a shock putting the bar on my back after the layoff, as well as a bit demoralizing to use less weight after busting my ass for a year.
Given a choice between the two, I’d rather squat than shoot.
Schwarzfahrer,
I 100% agree with your statement for maximal strength. It was like someone took my thoughts and typed them up for me. Well said.
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
The forms a little sketchy on both lifts…but maxes arent always perfect…these lifts were done by a me and a friend
critique welcome good and bad
[/quote]
Just out of curiosity, how much do you deadlift and squat? Do you pull sumo or conventional?
When your Zerchers go up do you see a corresponding rise in your other lifts? I used to do Zerchers quite a bit, but I wasn’t sure how much the carryover was from doing them to my other lifts. I suspect that they are good for little but core strength personally…
Did I ask too hard of a question or something?
back squat/raw/well past parallel = 480
conventional pull/raw = 500…thing is though, havent done very many conventional pulls lately…lotta suitcases and z-deads though
6’3’’ 250lbs…not that good yet…but they’ll get there =p
I started doing these to really help me with my shots/throws…sure I’m a huge fan of the drill it and do it principle but I thought maybe this would give me some kind of edge. as far as carryover into other lifts? mostly a big improvment with snatch grip deads…extra core strength really helps.
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
back squat/raw/well past parallel = 480
conventional pull/raw = 500…thing is though, havent done very many conventional pulls lately…lotta suitcases and z-deads though
6’3’’ 250lbs…not that good yet…but they’ll get there =p
I started doing these to really help me with my shots/throws…sure I’m a huge fan of the drill it and do it principle but I thought maybe this would give me some kind of edge. as far as carryover into other lifts? mostly a big improvment with snatch grip deads…extra core strength really helps.[/quote]
Why such odd exercises? If you are doing WSB, good mornings should be the staple of your exercise diet.
Honestly I think that if you can do Zerchers with 440 and you only pull 500 or back squat 480 that you should drop them. I pull around the same as you do, but couldn’t go anywhere near a 440 Zercher. In fact my best was 300 when I weighed 220.
why such odd lifts? I like them.
so I should drop my most satisfying lift? the one I look forward to every workout? not cool :[
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
why such odd lifts? I like them.
so I should drop my most satisfying lift? the one I look forward to every workout? not cool :[
[/quote]
You of course can do whatever you want, but I just think that you could choose a better selection of lifts to improve your deadlift.
If you want to just be able to do a 500lb. Zercher for example for bragging rights, then go ahead; but I don’t think that a Zercher will help your deadlift. The amount of weight that you can hold in the crook of your arms will be left that you can hold in your hands, so you might be cheating your legs and to a lesser extent back out of handling more weight; the same thing goes for suitcase deads.
My advice is to give some good morning variations a try.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
why such odd lifts? I like them.
so I should drop my most satisfying lift? the one I look forward to every workout? not cool :[
You of course can do whatever you want, but I just think that you could choose a better selection of lifts to improve your deadlift.
If you want to just be able to do a 500lb. Zercher for example for bragging rights, then go ahead; but I don’t think that a Zercher will help your deadlift. The amount of weight that you can hold in the crook of your arms will be left that you can hold in your hands, so you might be cheating your legs and to a lesser extent back out of handling more weight; the same thing goes for suitcase deads.
My advice is to give some good morning variations a try.
[/quote]
whoa when did I say I do zerchers to help me with my deadlifts? if I actually said that, then I shouldnt really lift any more. I do recall saying that the zerchers had some carryover to snatch grip deads but that was it…my reasons for doing zerchers was never to increase my deads but to help me with my wrestling shots/throws
if I wanted to increase my deadlift…I’d deadlift
but I will try good mornings…I read your thread on them and they seem otay
and as far as bragging rights goes? I want to surpass that craig smith guy on youtube…ha…internet warriorzzzz
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
whoa when did I say I do zerchers to help me with my deadlifts? if I actually said that, then I shouldnt really lift any more. I do recall saying that the zerchers had some carryover to snatch grip deads but that was it…my reasons for doing zerchers was never to increase my deads but to help me with my wrestling shots/throws
if I wanted to increase my deadlift…I’d deadlift
but I will try good mornings…I read your thread on them and they seem otay
and as far as bragging rights goes? I want to surpass that craig smith guy on youtube…ha…internet warriorzzzz[/quote]
I don’t see how Zerchers would carry over to snatch grip deads either. I don’t see the point in doing snatch grip deadlifts unless you are an olympic lifter doing them as a supplementary exercise either. Are you the king of useless lifts or what?
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
whoa when did I say I do zerchers to help me with my deadlifts? if I actually said that, then I shouldnt really lift any more. I do recall saying that the zerchers had some carryover to snatch grip deads but that was it…my reasons for doing zerchers was never to increase my deads but to help me with my wrestling shots/throws
if I wanted to increase my deadlift…I’d deadlift
but I will try good mornings…I read your thread on them and they seem otay
and as far as bragging rights goes? I want to surpass that craig smith guy on youtube…ha…internet warriorzzzz
I don’t see how Zerchers would carry over to snatch grip deads either. I don’t see the point in doing snatch grip deadlifts unless you are an olympic lifter doing them as a supplementary exercise either. Are you the king of useless lifts or what?
[/quote]
Useless lifts? Most any lifting is good lifting. Don’t see why you have to try and knock what I do…now I feel like making a bent press/back lift video just for you ;]
Purely going by my own experience man, doing Zerchers seemed to help my core enough to make a difference in snatch grip deads. At the time, I was doing snatch grip deads to help me out of the hole, to supplement my conventional deads.
[quote]Little Fatman wrote:
gainera2582 wrote:
If you can do a pistol in both legs for the same amount of reps, your body is less likely to compesnate on one side during the squat since strength would be almost equal.
No.
Doing pistols has very little or none carryover to the squat because they are mechanically very different. I would personally say there is absolutely no correlation, but I don’t want to dismiss anything a priori.
I cannot do a full pistol with bodyweight, let alone with weights, but I still squat a lot more than most people who dabble in both (and my squat sucks FYI). I did manage to graduate to one-arm pushups (I’m just so much better at upper-body exercises), and I don’t think that has had a significant carryover to my bench (even though the movement is much closer to the bench press than the pistol is to the squat IMO).
As for the functional debate, I personally think it’s ridiculous. If you want to excel at barbell-lifting feats, develop barbell-specific strength (squats, deads, benches, OH presses). A barbell squat is “functional” for powerlifting purposes, but less “functional” for, say, strongman events. A pistol is “functional” for martial arts, but not for powerlifting.
I like the idea of functional training, I just dislike the way how it’s used by people who are crap at weightlifting (or don’t have the inclination to lift) to achieve a feeling of superiority over those who lift more than they do. Functional is whatever helps you in a given endeavour, therefore it is a flexible definition. The torque created on your knee when doing pistols (if you’re not good at doing them) can actually lead to injuries, so the “safer” argument is also wrong.
PHS, excellent effort on both of those. How did you condition your forearms to stand the pain of heavy Zerchers?
[/quote]
I don’t post here as much anymore as the site has basically become awash with people who need help - unfortunately not exercise related.
YOU made a great post above - good points, and well put too.
A pistol is a great feat of not only strength but dynamic flexibility as well. The pistol is a great movement and shoul be incoperated in anyones routine who either wants to to raise their squat for powerlifting, get bigger legs, or improve athleticism.
Heres a few facts about pistols from kelly baggett.
There are a multitude of smaller muscles that stabilize the hips, knees, and ankles. Think of the “rotator cuff muscles”, but for the hips and legs instead of the shoulders. These muscle are hit hard by single leg resistance variations, yet so are the prime movers (the quads, glutes, and hams). Strengthening these muscles in conjunction with the prime movers seems to give the athlete an increased efficiency when it comes to gaining strength. When they do begin to focus more on loaded movements like squats, their strength quickly shoots up through the roof.
For the same reason that a chin-up not only builds strength quicker and builds more transferable strength than a lat pulldown, it enables them to develop useable strength that much faster.
It ensures the athlete can properly stabilize their bodyweight through motions that take place over a greater range of motion typically encountered in sport. This may help prevent injury.
standing up is functional…lol
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
whoa when did I say I do zerchers to help me with my deadlifts? if I actually said that, then I shouldnt really lift any more. I do recall saying that the zerchers had some carryover to snatch grip deads but that was it…my reasons for doing zerchers was never to increase my deads but to help me with my wrestling shots/throws
if I wanted to increase my deadlift…I’d deadlift
but I will try good mornings…I read your thread on them and they seem otay
and as far as bragging rights goes? I want to surpass that craig smith guy on youtube…ha…internet warriorzzzz
I don’t see how Zerchers would carry over to snatch grip deads either. I don’t see the point in doing snatch grip deadlifts unless you are an olympic lifter doing them as a supplementary exercise either. Are you the king of useless lifts or what?
Useless lifts? Most any lifting is good lifting. Don’t see why you have to try and knock what I do…now I feel like making a bent press/back lift video just for you ;]
Purely going by my own experience man, doing Zerchers seemed to help my core enough to make a difference in snatch grip deads. At the time, I was doing snatch grip deads to help me out of the hole, to supplement my conventional deads.
[/quote]
Again… what do you base this snatch grip dead helping you out of the bottom statement on? I think that the two are totally different movements. I think that you would be better off training from a deficit of 4 inches for conventional and 2 inches for a sumo. Keep in mind that this advice comes from someone who weighs almost 60 pounds less than you do but pulls the same.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
whoa when did I say I do zerchers to help me with my deadlifts? if I actually said that, then I shouldnt really lift any more. I do recall saying that the zerchers had some carryover to snatch grip deads but that was it…my reasons for doing zerchers was never to increase my deads but to help me with my wrestling shots/throws
if I wanted to increase my deadlift…I’d deadlift
but I will try good mornings…I read your thread on them and they seem otay
and as far as bragging rights goes? I want to surpass that craig smith guy on youtube…ha…internet warriorzzzz
I don’t see how Zerchers would carry over to snatch grip deads either. I don’t see the point in doing snatch grip deadlifts unless you are an olympic lifter doing them as a supplementary exercise either. Are you the king of useless lifts or what?
Useless lifts? Most any lifting is good lifting. Don’t see why you have to try and knock what I do…now I feel like making a bent press/back lift video just for you ;]
Purely going by my own experience man, doing Zerchers seemed to help my core enough to make a difference in snatch grip deads. At the time, I was doing snatch grip deads to help me out of the hole, to supplement my conventional deads.
Again… what do you base this snatch grip dead helping you out of the bottom statement on? I think that the two are totally different movements. I think that you would be better off training from a deficit of 4 inches for conventional and 2 inches for a sumo. Keep in mind that this advice comes from someone who weighs almost 60 pounds less than you do but pulls the same. [/quote]
Lol…you’re an internet warrior son, you really are. So because we happen to deadlift the same and you weigh less then I do, I should regard your advice and opinions more highly?
No
Besides, dont train regular deads all that often…zercher deads are where its at
Pull around 430 there :]]]]
[quote]PHSpower wrote:
Lol…you’re an internet warrior son, you really are. So because we happen to deadlift the same and you weigh less then I do, I should regard your advice and opinions more highly?
No
Besides, dont train regular deads all that often…zercher deads are where its at
Pull around 430 there :]]]][/quote]
I was just trying to be helpful by suggesting that perhaps you would have a better deadlift if you chose better accessory exercises.
But if you want to be the king of useless lifts this is your choice. Personally I don’t like that z-deadlift. The back looks way too rounded for me. I wouldn’t want to do it with really heavy weights either.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
PHSpower wrote:
Lol…you’re an internet warrior son, you really are. So because we happen to deadlift the same and you weigh less then I do, I should regard your advice and opinions more highly?
No
Besides, dont train regular deads all that often…zercher deads are where its at
Pull around 430 there :]]]]
I was just trying to be helpful by suggesting that perhaps you would have a better deadlift if you chose better accessory exercises.
But if you want to be the king of useless lifts this is your choice. Personally I don’t like that z-deadlift. The back looks way too rounded for me. I wouldn’t want to do it with really heavy weights either.
[/quote]
Which would have been fine had you not tried to use the weight you pull as validation for your opinions. Thats lame guy…
Zercher deadlifts actually feel pretty good on the back. Too rounded? Its the same movement as lifting an Atlas Stone, a long standing event in Strongmen Competition.