I’ve seen the ratio 4:3:2:1 given as ideal proportions between standard barbell lifts. So, starting with back squat at 1:1 the other lifts go down as 4:3 (75%) bench press, 3:2 (66%) barbell row, 2:1 (50%) overhead press.
Additionally, I’ve seen a recommended percentage of 80% to go from (at least some) barbell lifts to dumbbell lifts. So, total weight for a dumbbell pair would be 60% for rowing and 40% for OHP.
Do those ratios and percentages seem right from your experience?
Also, if the rep range was 8-12 rather than something like 3-5 would that make a difference for the ratios/percentages?
These numbers seem to match data at strengthlevel.com and some other sources, but personal experiences are helpful too.
One of the reasons I ask this is I’ve been following a basic full body routine three days per week, my squat rep range has been 8-12 depending on weight used in each set, and those sets can be quite taxing, but my OHP sets don’t seem nearly so difficult. I figure that difference in feel is due to the size of the muscle groups. My thigh measurements have been increasing, but it’s hard to measure shoulder growth except to just look in the mirror, and I feel it’s lagging.
But, back to the main question, are these ratios a good rule of thumb?
Definetly no.
Many powerlifters squat the same as they deadlift or in some cases even more. These ratios are bullshit and EVEN if they would be correct i cant see any use for a ratio. What does this ratio do for you? Why is it important? Why does it even exist? Its not like you can impact your lifts just by KNOWING a ratio.
You should train each lift to the best of your ability on good programming and things will fall where they fall based on your skill for each lift and body leverages. it’s possible you may be an outstanding squatter but your body will leave you struggling a little more on deadlifts and bench. (whatever combination ends up working out for you)
To quote Jim Wendler, “Not sure what your squat has to do with your deadlift - you are just a better deadlifter. I’d rather have a 2000lbs bench press and an 800lbs squat then do 800 for both. Embrace your freak and fucking exploit it. This idea of every lift being balanced with the others is literally one of the dumbest things that the internet has ever perpetrated. Keep training your squat and be persistent. But don’t live in the world that somehow, someway, all lifts have to be “equal”.”
I once saw a dude say that he was going to hold one of his lifts back so that he could let his other lifts catch up based on what Symmetric Strength said…this is your life and it’s ending one second at a time. There’s no time for that.
I didn’t list deadlift. How can that be wrong then? The point of the ratios would be a good balance between the various lifts. A way to avoid something like neglecting squats over upper body, or bench press over rowing, etc.
If a person trains all the basic movements to the best of his ability, he wont be neglecting anything.
And what your body can or cannot do, wont be changed by knowing some ratios.
Dont neglect movements and you will never need any ratios.
To be fair to Hank you did say “standard barbell lifts”. I would understand them to be deadlift, back squat, bench press and overhead press. I have also seen the 4:3:2:1 ratio applied to these lifts but, like others have said, it’s pretty pointless to try and get the ratios. Everyone’s built differently, different leverages for different lifts.
Yes, exactly. That’s another way to put it in proportional terms. But I’m not sure about the replies I’ve gotten. Are you saying those proportions by body weight are good, but the 4:3:2:1 formula is stupid?
Let’s say you start training and it turns out you have godlike potential for squatting. You’re quickly at a 700 lb squat. But uh-oh, you’re benching 250 lbs and Overhead Pressing 150 lbs, despite training everything hard. This doesn’t line up with the ratios!
What is your plan of action that you plan on doing now? are you going to hold your squat back and waste valuable training time from your life? Or are you going to embrace your freaky side? What does having a ratio in your mind do for you?
OK, yes that’s fair. Going by strengthlevel.com squat and RDL would be the same amount. That’s what I’ve been doing for a while now. Although a do pyramid sets for squats to take it easy on my knees. Lower weight/higher reps at the start.
IMO, it is simply a guideline for typical balance of strength. If one retards the others, make sure you are working the weaker area. Investigate what you could improve.
To answer with what is going on for me now: no I’m not holding back on my leg work over a concern that my shoulder progress seems slower. I thought about doing that only for the concern the leg work might compromise my overall recovery. But, to be honest I can’t bring myself to lessen the work. I’ve been pleased with my leg progress - except for my calves - so why stop a good thing? But, I don’t think have some freaky leg potential. I imagine it’s just normal.
My instinct is to do more shoulder work. Actually, I’ve consistently worked OHP a bit higher than the ratio for a long while. I based my working weight off what I could lift for a 5 and 3 rep max. My feeling is to add weight slightly and try 5 sets instead of 3. A noticeable increase, but not crazy.
I guess my concern with the ratios is to make sure I don’t do something wacky with my workout. That working beyond those basic ratios isn’t a sign that I’m screwing up something.
My bench is very close to my squat. Don’t know if that mean I am really great at benching, suck at squatting, or both.
I have seen a ratio of lifts like this once, but… the guy had one arm (he could do like a 150 lb dumbell with the one arm though). If you have two, you probably don’t need to worry about it. A bad bench with a 700 lb legit raw squat is probably upper 300s. I have seen that before. 700 lb raw squat with a 385 lb bench. We considered that guy a terrible bencher.
I’m not powerlifting. Most of the numbers given here are way, way beyond what I lift. I’m 52 years old, slight build with 6.25 inch wrists. I’m lifting for good health and physique. I like the feel of working out, but I’m much more inclined toward endurance training. I really don’t care about my maximum lifts, they will never impress anyone. I would like to hit certain physique goals and then switch to a maintenance/endurance focus.
I think for what you’re trying to do mike, those ratios will work just fine.
And I think you’ve got the right idea, if one of your lifts was behind the ratio you would try to find new, better ways of training that lift. Not stop training a good one.
I believe that the issue here is that most lifters don’t think much about these ratios, so they’re not used to thinking through these ideas.