4 Years Persistant Training (Pics)

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
61

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
tv wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
The arms rolled forward thing is not good. That looks a lot like internaly rotated humerus.

He needs some external rotation work.

Other than that, he’s doing prety good.

You do know that he is meaning to do that?

Well, I do now.

Sorry, I just looked at the pics in the gallery at face value.
I didn’t figure anybody would stand like that on purpose.
[/quote]

That is why everyone trying to diagnose skeletal pathologies on posed pictures over the internet just make themselves look stupid…even though they try so hard to do the opposite.

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
randman wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
randman wrote:
<<< And since when is cutting every year a stupid idea? I know a lot of professionals that do just this. You are usually good for some ignorant posts every so often. >>>

Take a minute and reassess whether there be any ignorance in this statement.

I have and there isn’t. Leaning out every year is not a bad idea. Everything in moderation. Cutting to the extreme and getting to 5% bodyfat when you haven’t built a bood base is a bad idea. So is bulking for 4 years straight if your over 30% bodyfat. Take a minute and try and understand this post.

You are thinking in extremes and I have seen you post here enough to know you don’t even usually think this way. Who here has EVER made any comment like it was ok to bulk up to 30% body fat?

Along those same lines, I can completely stand behind the idea of NOT dieting down until a solid base was built. This guy could have reached his end product much earlier than he did. He had the genetics but spent much of his time dieting. the problem with that is, MOST people who approach their lifting like that from the beginning never actually gain much afterwards.

Just look around this site. How many people here can honestly respond that they have gained in excess of 50lbs of muscle after they stopped growing in height? I am betting that number is less than 10.[/quote]

Everything Professor X just said and also what does what the pros do, who are already monstrous, have to do with someone like this guy? A thought along those same lines.

For the record, I somewhat understand, especially younger guys, not being able to resist tightening up SOME for the summer though I think they’d be better off not even really doing that if they have long term size goals in mind.

63

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just look around this site. How many people here can honestly respond that they have gained in excess of 50lbs of muscle after they stopped growing in height? I am betting that number is less than 10.[/quote]

If that’s the case, that would be pretty pathetic…

I actually agree for the most part with what Randman is saying. That guy has mad some great progress; I am a bad judge of things like these, but I’d say he has easily gained 70 pounds and is at a significantly lower body fat then when he started. To me that is excellent, consistant progress.

I mean, to me, this guy is a perfect example how, if somebody is dedicated, they can consistantly grow and make progress while never getting sloppy. It also shows that to make significant progress, you are going to have to accept some fat gain at some point.

In a pure, long-term muscle gain strategy, yeah, maybe he could have accomplished it faster without cutting (although that’s ignoring things like hormonal and “BF set point” shifts which I honestly don’t know enough about to be making an argument), however, most people that get into this are in it to improve their appearance, by building muscle and lowering their body fat. If they only focus on getting bigger and never cut down body fat, they are neglecting half of the equation.

It might seem not as “hardcore”, but when you are training for physique improvement, you occasionally want to see the benefits of that, both in building muscle but also in getting cut from time to time. If he had kept bulking and allowed himself to get a little sloppy, maybe he wouldn’t be as proud to take off his shirt during beach season and his conviction would waver a little. Maybe he wouldn’t be a psyched to get back in the gym and train as he was when he got cut for summer and some girl told him he looked good. It might sound stupid to some of the “ultra hardcore” people who can hold a long-term goal in their head and constantly work towards it, but some people need to feel a sense of accomplishment from time to time.

Alright I’m not really sure what the hell point I was trying to make so I’ll end it there. In any case, I think this guy sets a damn good example as one way to achieve a great physique transformation in a relatively short period of time.

64

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Just look around this site. How many people here can honestly respond that they have gained in excess of 50lbs of muscle after they stopped growing in height? I am betting that number is less than 10.

If that’s the case, that would be pretty pathetic…

I actually agree for the most part with what Randman is saying. That guy has mad some great progress; I am a bad judge of things like these, but I’d say he has easily gained 70 pounds and is at a significantly lower body fat then when he started. To me that is excellent, consistant progress.

I mean, to me, this guy is a perfect example how, if somebody is dedicated, they can consistantly grow and make progress while never getting sloppy. It also shows that to make significant progress, you are going to have to accept some fat gain at some point.

In a pure, long-term muscle gain strategy, yeah, maybe he could have accomplished it faster without cutting (although that’s ignoring things like hormonal and “BF set point” shifts which I honestly don’t know enough about to be making an argument), however, most people that get into this are in it to improve their appearance, by building muscle and lowering their body fat. If they only focus on getting bigger and never cut down body fat, they are neglecting half of the equation.

It might seem not as “hardcore”, but when you are training for physique improvement, you occasionally want to see the benefits of that, both in building muscle but also in getting cut from time to time. If he had kept bulking and allowed himself to get a little sloppy, maybe he wouldn’t be as proud to take off his shirt during beach season and his conviction would waver a little. Maybe he wouldn’t be a psyched to get back in the gym and train as he was when he got cut for summer and some girl told him he looked good. It might sound stupid to some of the “ultra hardcore” people who can hold a long-term goal in their head and constantly work towards it, but some people need to feel a sense of accomplishment from time to time.

Alright I’m not really sure what the hell point I was trying to make so I’ll end it there. In any case, I think this guy sets a damn good example as one way to achieve a great physique transformation in a relatively short period of time.
[/quote]

I have already written this, but again, some of you seem to think in extremes and that makes little sense. There is a large difference between not dieting down to “ripped” and “getting sloppy” (whatever that means to the individual). Not one person has written that there should be some care free attitude for body composition, yet that hasn’t stopped you and apparently others from pretending as if this was written. No one has written that if you go overboard, that you don’t increase cardio or reduce intake until you are avoiding some extreme excess in fat gained. The one question I have is, why does this shit need to be explained in such an elementary fashion? Is the collective understanding of the people on this site that dull?

Yes, I would still say that fewer than ten people on this forum who post regularly have experienced in excess of 50lbs of muscle (not weight) gained. The replies are enough to tell me this.

65

[quote]themonthofjun wrote:
I think the idea of steroid use comes from months 11/1/06 to 1/1/06, he blows up by ~10 lbs despite visible abs. Apart from that its funny to see him start lifting and dieting till he gets to single digit bf, and starts bulking. Also around year four he finally starts smiling.[/quote]

Looks to me like he just focused on his back for few months. Chest is same, arms are same, legs are same. The only thing noticeably larger in those pics are the lats.

But I do think it is funny that people are crying photo shop and roids. Doesn’t sound too much different than our own soy-boy contingent here at T-Nation.

66

[quote]wfifer wrote:
The problem with this is not that his progress is unlikely over four years, it’s that all of the progress seems to have occurred within very small time frames. The rest of the time he’s basically fluctuating body fat levels while making either no progress or below average progress.
[/quote]

The nicer version of my “I call Photoshop” comment. I read one of the other posts here and didn’t realize that the guy posted progress pics DAILY. I thought it was monthly. Now I believe that it wasn’t Photoshopped. The 3/03 to 4/03 progress bothered me until I saw the daily pics, then it became obvious to me that he really dieted down. Oops, sorry. Now I have to praise the idea and his progress. How awful! :stuck_out_tongue:

Nowhere in my post did I say that such gains weren’t possible. Make that guy first photo 10 years younger and take away the chest hair and you’d have pretty much what I started out with. I KNOW those changes are possible because I did and am still doing that with my own body.

All I said is that the photos looked fake to me [at first]. Most of the posters who were offended by me jumping to conclusions did just that with their replies. :wink: Happy lifting.

67

[quote]Professor X wrote:
randman wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
randman wrote:
<<< And since when is cutting every year a stupid idea? I know a lot of professionals that do just this. You are usually good for some ignorant posts every so often. >>>

Take a minute and reassess whether there be any ignorance in this statement.

I have and there isn’t. Leaning out every year is not a bad idea. Everything in moderation. Cutting to the extreme and getting to 5% bodyfat when you haven’t built a bood base is a bad idea. So is bulking for 4 years straight if your over 30% bodyfat. Take a minute and try and understand this post.

You are thinking in extremes and I have seen you post here enough to know you don’t even usually think this way. Who here has EVER made any comment like it was ok to bulk up to 30% body fat?

Along those same lines, I can completely stand behind the idea of NOT dieting down until a solid base was built. This guy could have reached his end product much earlier than he did. He had the genetics but spent much of his time dieting. the problem with that is, MOST people who approach their lifting like that from the beginning never actually gain much afterwards.

Just look around this site. How many people here can honestly respond that they have gained in excess of 50lbs of muscle after they stopped growing in height? I am betting that number is less than 10.[/quote]

I think randman has a point. I know, based sales at my little store, that the desire to cut at least once a year starts in February, and runs right up to the end of spring.

I think the guy in the pics personifies “the lifestyle”. He has made a journey out of building quality lean mass.

Could he have done it faster? Probably. Does it make a shit’s worth of difference how fast it comes if one just flat enjoys the long, slow, lean mass gain? Probably not.

I have a much bigger problem with the gay-bobs that say he should have stopped in 2003.

68

Yeah, there was no point of him spending that much time getting ripped if he was just going to bulk up. Losing fat so he doesn’t end up with 30% bf, that I can understand.
But getting ripped when he hasn’t built a solid foundation makes no sense whatsoever.

69

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I think the guy in the pics personifies “the lifestyle”.
[/quote]

That isn’t even what is being debated. This guy is clearly miles ahead of most people in terms of dedication and attention to detail. Who else not only takes pictures on such a regular basis, but believes at the start that they will make enough progress to justify it? Many of the people here seem more focused on their limitations (like .5lbs a month as if anymore gain than that can only be fat) and how everyone who has passed them up is on drugs rather than what they can actually get to in terms of progress themselves.

The only point made was that I think he wasted his time by dieting that extremely from the beginning. I have seen people make larger transformations by spending that time forcing a change in body composition while still gaining muscle or even gaining more muscle first which allows them little effort to decreasing overall body fat later on.

70

[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
Yeah, there was no point of him spending that much time getting ripped if he was just going to bulk up. Losing fat so he doesn’t end up with 30% bf, that I can understand.
But getting ripped when he hasn’t built a solid foundation makes no sense whatsoever.[/quote]

No argument there.

71

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have already written this, but again, some of you seem to think in extremes and that makes little sense. [/quote]

I would certainly agree that to think in extremes makes little sense. I’m not sure what I said that would suggest that I myself thought that way, so perhaps you are talking about somebody else. I’m certainly a believer that muscle can only be gained at a certain rate (thus "extreme bulking would be pointless) and fat can only be dropped at a certain rate without losing muscle; thus making “extreme dieting” pointless. I actually thought I was making a point for moderation, I guess I was unclear and for that I apologize.

[quote]
There is a large difference between not dieting down to “ripped” and “getting sloppy” (whatever that means to the individual). Not one person has written that there should be some care free attitude for body composition, yet that hasn’t stopped you and apparently others from pretending as if this was written. [/quote]

Ahh… I was waiting for you to put words in my mouth. I thought I would have to wait until the 5th sentence for that to happen, but I guess not. I don’t think I even addressed anybody talking about a “care free attitude for body composition” (whatever that means to the individual), so I have no clue where you are coming from. I simply stated that this individual was a good example of a guy being able to put on a substantial amount of size without “getting sloppy.” In fact, two sentences later, I acknowledged the fact that he might’ve made a faster muscle gain if he hadn’t cut at all, but I argued that going that route might not be optimal for people who wish to stay leaner in order to help them stay motivated. Obviously “getting sloppy” is a completely subjective term and just depends on how body fat an individual minds carrying. If I had to put a number on it, I’d say that getting into the mid to high teens in bodyfat starts looks sloppy to me.

[quote]
No one has written that if you go overboard, that you don’t increase cardio or reduce intake until you are avoiding some extreme excess in fat gained. [/quote]

Nor have I suggested that. Please point out what I said that would make you think that.

[quote]
The one question I have is, why does this shit need to be explained in such an elementary fashion?[/quote]

It didn’t. The one question I have is, why do you feel the need to create an argument that was never there in the first place?

[quote]
Yes, I would still say that fewer than ten people on this forum who post regularly have experienced in excess of 50lbs of muscle (not weight) gained. The replies are enough to tell me this.[/quote]

Or perhaps they just don’t feel the need to prove themselves to you? There have been plenty of impressive posts in the physique and performance photos section. They definitely ARE drastically outnumbered by eliteballa-esque clowns though. Unfortunately I cannot raise my hand yet, as (by my best calculation), I’m still about 7 pounds of LBM shy of reaching this goal. Luckily for me, sometime this summer I should reach this goal and receive my Prof X official gold star on my chart. Until that day I will be eagerly waiting.

I’m not really sure what prompted this reaction from you… but it seems like you were looking for an argument, so I thought I would indulge you.

72

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I would certainly agree that to think in extremes makes little sense. I’m not sure what I said that would suggest that I myself thought that way, so perhaps you are talking about somebody else. I’m certainly a believer that muscle can only be gained at a certain rate (thus "extreme bulking would be pointless) and fat can only be dropped at a certain rate without losing muscle; thus making “extreme dieting” pointless. I actually thought I was making a point for moderation, I guess I was unclear and for that I apologize.[/quote]

A “certain rate”? GENETICS are what determine how fast someone will gain muscle from an activity along with the stress of the activity and their food intake. I have personally made large leaps in muscular body weight and have seen the same in others. If the guy who gained 20lbs in two months when he started lifting had listened to people like you, he would have restricted his own progress. For future reference, your body does not grow in a linear fashion. There are leaps and lulls in growth. There will be times that you see minor growth and then gain 5lbs in a week…if you aren’t inexperienced enough to believe there is some constant rate of growth that you have stay behind because you fear body fat to that degree.

[quote]
Ahh… I was waiting for you to put words in my mouth. I thought I would have to wait until the 5th sentence for that to happen, but I guess not. I don’t think I even addressed anybody talking about a “care free attitude for body composition” (whatever that means to the individual), so I have no clue where you are coming from. [/quote]

You wrote:

Neglecting half of the equation? If you think the guy who gains 100lbs of body weight in 5-7 years of training is “neglecting” half of the equation, that is only because you don’t understand the end goal. We aren’t discussing people who NEVER diet down in a life time. We are discussing OPTIMAL GAINS IN MUSCLE MASS IN THE SHORTEST TIME PERIOD.

[quote]

It didn’t. The one question I have is, why do you feel the need to create an argument that was never there in the first place?[/quote]

The argument is still there. You still can’t see it?

Most of the people who have made anywhere near that kind of physical change HAVE BEEN MUCH HEAVIER IN THE PAST. That includes CT. Newbies like to ignore this as if it has nothing to do with why some guy is now bigger in terms of muscle mass than all of those who chose to restrict their food intake drastically for years.

73

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The only point made was that I think he wasted his time by dieting that extremely from the beginning. I have seen people make larger transformations by spending that time forcing a change in body composition while still gaining muscle or even gaining more muscle first which allows them little effort to decreasing overall body fat later on. [/quote]

Actually Professor, I for one can understand where that guy was coming from when he first started out. When I had a body like his at first I wanted to be thin. Not sissy-boy thin, but I wanted my potbelly to at least shrink so I wouldn’t have to suck in my gut every time a pretty girl walked by. Hell we have plenty of posters here who would be happy if they had Brad Pitt’s stomach.

I think that is very normal for a person starting to get into body composition changing for the first time. I’m pretty sure John Stone just wanted a flatter stomach at first. After he had achieved that modest goal, he had the confidence to try to bulk and lift heavy for the first time. After all, if he’s going to take a photo of himself every day and post it, he better make some, ANY change to make things interesting.

John didn’t waste his time. He just did it his way at first and learned later than the newbies learning how to change their bodies through this site (while I was stuck with M&F and Flex magazines a decade ago) that he could have just lifted heavy, eaten better, and the rest would have taken care of themselves over time. Maybe if John had to do it all over again, he would gun for size first and save the cutting for later.

74

[quote]Professor X wrote:
A “certain rate”? GENETICS are what determine how fast someone will gain muscle from an activity along with the stress of the activity and their food intake. [/quote]

Yes, thank you for stating the obvious. I realized that. Regardless, simple common sense would suggest that one can only grow so much muscle in a certain set of circumstances.

[quote]
I have personally made large leaps in muscular body weight and have seen the same in others. [/quote]

Yes I know. You never fail to point that out. For future reference, everybody on here already knows the impressive progress you have made and most have given you props on that already.

[quote]
If the guy who gained 20lbs in two months when he started lifting had listened to people like you, he would have restricted his own progress. For future reference, your body does not grow in a linear fashion. There are leaps and lulls in growth. There will be times that you see minor growth and then gain 5lbs in a week…if you aren’t inexperienced enough to believe there is some constant rate of growth that you have stay behind because you fear body fat to that degree.[/quote]

A good combination of putting words in my mouth and restating basic obvious points as if I was disagreeing with you. I am not inexperienced enough to believe that the body grows linearly, and I don’t think I’ve ever said anything to suggest that. “Consistent” doesn’t imply linear growth, it just implies continual progress.

[quote]
You wrote:
If they only focus on getting bigger and never cut down body fat, they are neglecting half of the equation.

Neglecting half of the equation? If you think the guy who gains 100lbs of body weight in 5-7 years of training is “neglecting” half of the equation, that is only because you don’t understand the end goal.[/quote]

Actually, I thought my sentence, “It might sound stupid to some of the “ultra hardcore” people who can hold a long-term goal in their head and constantly work towards it…” implied that I in fact DID understand the end goal.

[quote]
We aren’t discussing people who NEVER diet down in a life time. [/quote]

Actually, that’s exactly what I was discussing with my “neglecting half of the equation comment.”

[quote]
We are discussing OPTIMAL GAINS IN MUSCLE MASS IN THE SHORTEST TIME PERIOD.[/quote]

Actually… I wasn’t at all. I have already stated TWICE in this thread that OPTIMAL GAINS IN MUSCLE MASS IN THE SHORTEST TIME PERIOD (note: make sure to yell this at the top of your lungs in your most Hulk Hogan-esque voice) would be made by continually bulking and never cutting. But of course, you would only know that if you bothered to actually read what I wrote. My contention is that OGIMMITSTP (handy acronym I will be using from now on, must still be yelled though) might not be so optimal for people who wish to not have their sub-OGIMMITSTP gains covered up by more fat than they would like.

[quote]
The argument is still there. You still can’t see it?[/quote]

Well I never know what argument you are going to create to be able to repeat yourself over and over again. So I’ll just wait for you to do it and then respond.

[quote]
Most of the people who have made anywhere near that kind of physical change HAVE BEEN MUCH HEAVIER IN THE PAST. [/quote]

Have I ever stated anything to the contrary?

[quote]
That includes CT. [/quote]

Well godamnit, now I have to destroy my shrine to CT, complete with scented candles and framed picture. Thank you for destroying my hopes, dreams, goals and aspirations.

[quote]
Newbies like to ignore this as if it has nothing to do with why some guy is now bigger in terms of muscle mass than all of those who chose to restrict their food intake drastically for years.[/quote]

Well, that’s cool and all, but what does that have to do with this discussion?

I’ll re-state my argument so you can ignore it again and continue restating the same tired points over and over again:

-Many people who are not so obsessed with OGIMMITSTP would be better served with a periodical (perhaps once yearly) cut and not allowing their body fat to rise past a level which would partially obscure some of the gains they have made and slacken their motivation. In addition, these individuals would generally have a better physique year-round then someone entirely concerned with OGIMMITSTP, even though the OGIMMITSTP’er would probably reach the “end goal” a bit sooner.

Alright, commence with the ignoring + strawman attacks.

75

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I’ll re-state my argument so you can ignore it again and continue restating the same tired points over and over again:

-Many people who are not so obsessed with OGIMMITSTP would be better served with a periodical (perhaps once yearly) cut and not allowing their body fat to rise past a level which would partially obscure some of the gains they have made and slacken their motivation. In addition, these individuals would generally have a better physique year-round then someone entirely concerned with OGIMMITSTP, even though the OGIMMITSTP’er would probably reach the “end goal” a bit sooner.
[/quote]

If my goal is mass, why would I be bothered with cutting early and often if I can achieve my end goal sooner by just waiting until I reach my peak weight, and then dieting down just once?

Why would I want to “have a better physique year-round” if it’ll mean I’ll have to wait longer to achieve my end goal? Sounds like you defeated your own argument with the statement above, so I am really hoping that I just misunderstood you or something.

I can’t imagine why being fat would slacken my motivation if I’m trying to be fat in the first place. Sounds like those who should cut during bulking phases are people who would just DIE if they couldn’t see their abs anymore while making an attempt at bulking.

76

[quote]BF Bullpup wrote:

If my goal is mass, why would I be bothered with cutting early and often if I can achieve my end goal sooner by just waiting until I reach my peak weight, and then dieting down just once?
[/quote]
So you don’t have to buy new jeans?

77

[quote]gotaknife wrote:
BF Bullpup wrote:

If my goal is mass, why would I be bothered with cutting early and often if I can achieve my end goal sooner by just waiting until I reach my peak weight, and then dieting down just once?

So you don’t have to buy new jeans?
[/quote]

What are you talking about? I would be bigger either way, so I would need to buy new jeans anyway.

78

This was the guys goals when he started. Those of you that think he should have started bulking from day 1 are transposing your own goals on to a guy that just wanted to get back in shape.

To me there is little difference between your armchair qb-ing, and the idiots that say he looked better as a Brad Pitt ab-queen.

It all boils down to the fact that he did what he did for him - and it worked. Not to impress ProfessorX or his mindless asskissers that get get moist in the groin area when they think they are agreeing with him.

I may be missing something here - but please fucking show me where he says he wants to get huge as fast as he possibly can - short of that, maybe the ProfX ass kissing club will kindly shit the fuck up:

[b][i]I started my program because I was tired of being fat, unhealthy and out of shape. In high school I was an athlete, I was in great shape and I was healthy & confident. I stayed that way until I was in my mid-twenties, but over the last 10 years I let it all go. I became lazy, fat, unhealthy, antisocial, and I lost all my self-confidence.

Late last year, I decided it was time to make some major changes. I decided that I was not going to continue to live my life feeling miserable and disgusted with myself. I did a lot of soul-searching and made a list of all the things I wanted to change. At the top of the list was my health and personal appearance.

So, without wasting any more time, I began to educate myself, I set some goals and I made a plan. On January 6th, 2003 I put everything in motion. I have not looked back and my whole life and the way I live it has changed in just 3 short months.[/b][/i]

79

[quote]rainjack wrote:
This was the guys goals when he started. Those of you that think he should have started bulking from day 1 are transposing your own goals on to a guy that just wanted to get back in shape.

To me there is little difference between your armchair qb-ing, and the idiots that say he looked better as a Brad Pitt ab-queen.

It all boils down to the fact that he did what he did for him - and it worked. Not to impress ProfessorX or his mindless asskissers that get get moist in the groin area when they think they are agreeing with him.

I may be missing something here - but please fucking show me where he says he wants to get huge as fast as he possibly can - short of that, maybe the ProfX ass kissing club will kindly shit the fuck up:

[b][i]I started my program because I was tired of being fat, unhealthy and out of shape. In high school I was an athlete, I was in great shape and I was healthy & confident. I stayed that way until I was in my mid-twenties, but over the last 10 years I let it all go. I became lazy, fat, unhealthy, antisocial, and I lost all my self-confidence.

Late last year, I decided it was time to make some major changes. I decided that I was not going to continue to live my life feeling miserable and disgusted with myself. I did a lot of soul-searching and made a list of all the things I wanted to change. At the top of the list was my health and personal appearance.

So, without wasting any more time, I began to educate myself, I set some goals and I made a plan. On January 6th, 2003 I put everything in motion. I have not looked back and my whole life and the way I live it has changed in just 3 short months.[/b][/i][/quote]

Good post.

Set your goals and then create a plan to achieve them. This guy did exactly that and it worked.

He was a fat ass and he wanted to lean out. After he was lean he decided to add some mass. Good job.

Many of us don’t want to get as huge as possible. I have respect for those that do. I also have respect for guys that want to lose fat, improve strength etc without bulking.

The only thing that really bothers me on this site is when someone states their goals and their behavior does not match.

80

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:

I think the guy in the pics personifies “the lifestyle”.

That isn’t even what is being debated. This guy is clearly miles ahead of most people in terms of dedication and attention to detail. Who else not only takes pictures on such a regular basis, but believes at the start that they will make enough progress to justify it? Many of the people here seem more focused on their limitations (like .5lbs a month as if anymore gain than that can only be fat) and how everyone who has passed them up is on drugs rather than what they can actually get to in terms of progress themselves.

The only point made was that I think he wasted his time by dieting that extremely from the beginning. I have seen people make larger transformations by spending that time forcing a change in body composition while still gaining muscle or even gaining more muscle first which allows them little effort to decreasing overall body fat later on. [/quote]

It depends on what the goal is. If you want to get there in the fastest time possible, you are 100% right. But I happen to know John Stone. That’s not what he wanted to do. He does recognize he could’ve gotten to where he is quicker if he did less dieting phases.

Except for his first 6th months of training, where he seriously underate during his initial cut [if you look at his food logs, it’s REALLY evident], he would not have anything differently. He could’ve gotten where he is faster if he allowed himself to carry more bodyfat for longer periods along the way. But that’s not what he wanted to do.