300 the Movie - Spartan Training

[quote]Fenris wrote:
Oh, and ancient man was definitely stronger and faster than modern man (even elite athletes). When you read about accounts of men like Milo of Kroton or some of the shit Mark Antony used to do… it’s amazing.
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Why do people believe garbage like this? Its like all the folks that believe magical chinese men can fight people with Chi. Somehow all the modern advances in biomechanical understanding, sports nutrition, and athletic training has led to athletes that couldnt compete with their ancient counterparts? What nonsense. The finest athletes the world has ever seen are those we have produced in the modern era. Old people dont have magical secrets. What they have are emblished fairy tails. In fact, what they lacked, the very thing that makes us so successful now, was a well developed scientific understanding of the world (especially physical development in so far as it pertains to producing athletes).

[quote]Fenris wrote:
Also, someone mentioned that the Spartan phalanx was very effective during the Roman Empire. The Spartans were actually crushed by the Romans during the Republic. The Roman maniple proved to be far superior to the phalanx, due mainly to its maneuverability and the fact that it could be utilized for close quarter combat. By the time of the Empire, the phalanx had been (for the most part) phased out.
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Hah! You beat me to this, and well said also. The representation of Roman combat in movies has long been a pet peeve of mine, especially when done by those who should know better (some of the worse violators, 1960’s “sword & sandal movies”,the Xena/Hercules TV series arcs, and even history channel productions). Ridley Scott likely got it closest in the opening of Gladiator, but there were still flaws…Just once I’d love to see that Roman shield wall advancing with Gladi slicing into the clueless enemy, unable to resist…Like a massive razor…(Only 2 armies in history were able to pull off this feat, the Romans and the Zulu shield wall with “stabbing Assegai”, and you notice that the Zulu version has only been shown against opponents bearing superior firearms technology…Check out “Zulu Dawn” with Burt Lancaster, recounting the British defeat at the Battle of Ishlawana, the prequel to Stanley Baker’s “Zulu”).

[quote]adubswils wrote:
Why do people believe garbage like this? Its like all the folks that believe magical chinese men can fight people with Chi. Somehow all the modern advances in biomechanical understanding, sports nutrition, and athletic training has led to athletes that couldnt compete with their ancient counterparts? What nonsense. The finest athletes the world has ever seen are those we have produced in the modern era. Old people dont have magical secrets. What they have are emblished fairy tails. In fact, what they lacked, the very thing that makes us so successful now, was a well developed scientific understanding of the world (especially physical development in so far as it pertains to producing athletes).[/quote]

You’re talking about athletes, whereas other posters were talking about “average joes”.

Yes, our athletes would probably whip up on their athletes.

However, the mental toughness and general physical fortitude of a typical ancient person probably significantly outweighs that of a typical modern person.

Ill note that ancient battles were more like pushing matches rather than slash stab fighting shown in most modern movies. Not much stabby stabby, there certainly was, but that was usually saved for the more decisive moments, these guys generally played a tugawar match for about 4hours until whichever side crumbled first, most casualties in battle occoured when one side dropped there sheilds and ran.

[quote]T.J. wrote:
Training that the Spartan Actors Have been doing

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Who was that hanging from the rings near the end of the video?

Just watched the trailer on youtube. I had hoped it would be a “realistic,” regular movie like Gladiator, but it looks all colorized, special effects, slow motion-laden. Bummer. :frowning:

[quote]B rocK wrote:
T.J. wrote:
It’s nice to see from screen captures and from the trailers that they have chosen to actually use some big guys in the upcoming movie 300. Nobody is looking forward to this movie more than I, so I have a few things I have stumbled upon.

The Final Trailer - Think it’s allready been posted

Advanced Review From IGN.com - no spoilers, so it’s good
Movie Reviews, Trailers, Interviews, Wikis & Posters for Movies - IGN

Training that the Spartan Actors Have been doing

The training regimine looks pretty awesome to me.

I wish I had the time, facilities and equipment to do that![/quote]

Same here

Has somebody made mention of the Spartan tradition of homosexuality

[quote]PJD wrote:
Has somebody made mention of the Spartan tradition of homosexuality[/quote]

Or any of the Greek states, Romans, Japanese, etc etc. It was common to any warrior culture.

[quote]adubswils wrote:
Fenris wrote:
Oh, and ancient man was definitely stronger and faster than modern man (even elite athletes). When you read about accounts of men like Milo of Kroton or some of the shit Mark Antony used to do… it’s amazing.

Why do people believe garbage like this? Its like all the folks that believe magical chinese men can fight people with Chi. Somehow all the modern advances in biomechanical understanding, sports nutrition, and athletic training has led to athletes that couldnt compete with their ancient counterparts? What nonsense. The finest athletes the world has ever seen are those we have produced in the modern era. Old people dont have magical secrets. What they have are emblished fairy tails. In fact, what they lacked, the very thing that makes us so successful now, was a well developed scientific understanding of the world (especially physical development in so far as it pertains to producing athletes).[/quote]

Don’t be an ass. The Greek and Roman accounts of their athletes were very detailed and very much in the realm of human possibility, as opposed to the Chinese accounts of people flying and bullshit like that.

Herodotus writes, for example "The wrestlers and boxers trained with stones and weighted implements. Small hand weights were used, as well as weighted leather sacks that would sometimes weigh as much as a man and be thrown back and forth. Large pieces of rock and iron were carried to the sides in each hand by athletes as they would walk at a quick pace, exerting their limbs and lungs.

Men would squat down and lift huge rocks, the weight of three men, from the floor to heights above their heads with their arms outstretched."

Hmmm… sounds like Farmer’s Walks, dumbells, medicine balls, Olympic Lifts…

Besides, even with all of our “advanced scientific knowledge,” what does it take to get strong? Squat, bench, deadlift, and possibly Olympic Lift heavy and eat a lot. This hasn’t changed much since Eugene Sandow. Hell, look at the World’s Strongest Man competition! Most of their events are based on things that ancient people would have been doing constantly, whether for training or just to make a living!

A stone was found in Kroton that says on the side “Milo lifted this above his head three times consecutively.” The stone weighs 515lbs. Insanely impressive…insanely difficult…but also within the realm of human possibility. This was a hard culture. Their every waking moment was filled with physical exertion. Their minds were tougher from constant death, disease, and war around them.

Man. That gives me chills. A barbell is one thing, but a 515lb rock…geez…

Also, to think that the ancients didn’t have a scientific understanding of biomechanics is absurb. Roman doctors performed brain surgery, dentistry, and cosmetic surgery! The surgical kit of Galen, one of the finest Roman doctors, is exactly identical to the ones being used by surgeons today. There was a reason that they called the period after Rome’s fall “The Dark Ages.” Humanity essentially had to start over. Thousands of years of knowledge was lost.

Don’t forget this was a society with indoor plumbing and even vending machines! They also loved the human body and athleticism even more than we do. To think that they didn’t spend time studying it is absurd. The first Olympics were around the 8th century BC. The Olympics were abolished in the 4th century AD. That’s 1200 years.

Also, the guy who said that the Romans adopted the Roman maniple because of terrain is partly right. They adopted the maniple shortly after Rome was sacked by the Gauls in the 3rd or 4th century BC. The Gauls fought with guerilla tactics and would sweep down from the mountains. The Romans needed a formation that could fight the Phalanx AND these guerilla mountain warriors… thus, the maniple.

Okay. Now that I have sufficiently geeked out, I’m going to do some Farmer’s Walks and try to find a big ass rock…

[quote]new2training wrote:
I’m not trying to pose as some kind of military historian but I’m legitimately curious to know if any of these actual warriors/soldies from ancient times actually looked jacked?

Sure, some gladiators probably were, but they were living in dorms and training on a daily basis. They were all about the show and entertaining.

I’m guessing their nutrition was extremely poor on extended campaigns.

This coupled with little rest and endless marching probably made them look disease ravaged and emaciated as opposed to looking like body builders.

This obviously has nothing to do with the fact that they were tough as shit no matter what they “looked like”.

From what I’ve read the Army of Northern VA was one of the toughest and well trained Armies in the history of warfare and we actually have pictures to show how horrible their conditions were.

I forget what the average weight was but it was sadly very, very low during the American Civil War.

I’ll bet it was as bad during ancient warfare. Not to mention I think the average size of people in general was much smaller anyway.

Not complaining, body builder/actors make the movie more interesting in some respects, probably not very accurate though.
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The Spartan society trained pretty much all the time, and like in the video, most of the assumptions that you make about the culture is very accurate.

Military training started at a young age. They didn’t constantly battle though, as you would think. But they were always prepared for it, and in a constant state of readiness.

The kids would have a game called “stealing the cheese” Where on the top of a hill was a big lump of cheese. Older boys would stand on the top armed with whips and sticks, and the younger boys would run and try to steal the cheese while fighting of the other boys and getting whipped and beaten.

They lived on a very healthy diet of mostly cheese, nuts, and large quantities of milk. They also ate some meat, but not nearly as much as milk and cheese. And by study, it seems that, yes, they would look as jacked as the movie, or similarly so. They did travel alot but were rarely emaciated and malnourished (at least most of the time, though sometimes whilst in training as children).

Sparta also mostly kept to its own area, and didn’t really seem to go around trying to conquer as much land as possible. They just tried to mantain their own designated land of badasses. So I guess they would be malnourished on long campaigns, if they ever went on them.

As children, food was rationed for their military camps and if one kid kicked your ass and took your food, he wouldn’t be punished, because by their logic, it was your fault for not being able to defend yourself and your food. You could even say that bullying was encouraged to a point.

The women were specifically bred to be beautiful and powerful. Sparta was very well known for its beautiful women. Helen was a Spartan, and she caused a pretty big fucking war that reached mythical proportions. Oh, they received training too. So if by any chance some assholes snuck past the Spartan men, they women would just stomp their shit.

Those are just some facts.

Man, I love this shit. Some have probably seen me talk here before about how big of a history freak I am…

Can anyone recommend any other good books besides Gates of Fire? This discussion has really gotten me pumped to learn as much about Spartan society as I possibly can.

Yeah it is an interesting concept, the idea that homosexuality is a part of the hypermasculine culture that is seen in warrior cultures like Sparta. Even the Athenians, who were famous for swinging both ways, commented on the Spartans homosexuality and there disinterest in women.

I know Wikipedia isn’t always the most reliable source, but I thought it would be a good place to start until I get my hands on some books.

Anyway, I found this tidbit of information extremely cool, given the nature of what we’re all so obsessed with here:

“Spartans were absolutely debarred by law from trade or manufacture, which consequently rested in the hands of the perioeci, and were forbidden (in theory) to possess either gold or silver. Spartan currency consisted of bars of IRON…”

Wonder how much food a 45-pounder could get you back then? :wink:

In addition to Mark Twight’s workout;

“Five weeks before the cameras were to roll, Butler took on extra sessions with a Venezuelan bodybuilder named Franco LiCastro in order to exaggerate the physique he was after. “I wanted to look really strong,” says Butler. “I’ve seen so many actors play these kinds of roles, and you see all this equipment on either a big belly or skinny little arms.” It worked in more ways than one: On-screen, the bearded actor lords over the battlefield like testosterone incarnate, with the steely gaze, cobblestone abs, and broad, chiseled shoulders you suspect one would need to command 300 men to their slaughter.”

This is from the article in latest Men’s Health about Gerard Butler.

Just bought the Graphic Novel. Fucking incredible! I cannot wait for this movie!

It’s not perfectly accurate (as the art style is trippy and meant to be that way), but overall, it follows the story of thermopylae quite well.

It’s gonna rock!

[quote]CC wrote:
I know Wikipedia isn’t always the most reliable source, but I thought it would be a good place to start until I get my hands on some books.

Anyway, I found this tidbit of information extremely cool, given the nature of what we’re all so obsessed with here:

“Spartans were absolutely debarred by law from trade or manufacture, which consequently rested in the hands of the perioeci, and were forbidden (in theory) to possess either gold or silver. Spartan currency consisted of bars of IRON…”

Wonder how much food a 45-pounder could get you back then? ;-)[/quote]

hahahah, That is the mark of a badass society right there… currency equals fuckin Iron. Awesome.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Just bought the Graphic Novel. Fucking incredible! I cannot wait for this movie!

It’s not perfectly accurate (as the art style is trippy and meant to be that way), but overall, it follows the story of thermopylae quite well.

It’s gonna rock![/quote]

I just finished “Gates of Fire” and am begining to believe this movie MIGHT turn out to be a little on the stupid/rediculous/over-the-top/cheesie side. Spartans wore armor (not bare chested) and fought with the phalanx. The trailers make it look like a bunch of Rambos out there. Also, there were no rhinoserous (spelling) or elephants at this battle, or ogres and trolls.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Also, there were no rhinoceros (spelling) or elephants at this battle, or ogres and trolls.
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Yes there were! An action movie wouldn’t exaggerate, would it?

:slight_smile:

Why is everyone freaking out around here lately about the accuracy of a MOVIE based on a COMIC BOOK.

The “I just can’t believe they’re not doing this story justice” and “this is probably going to be cheesy” comments are getting ridiculous.

Between myself and several others, I’ve seen a lot of people express interest in learning more about the Spartans and Thermopylae than there ever was around here before this movie was set to come out.

In other words, this movie has inspired a lot of people to learn more about the true story. If it weren’t for this movie, most people wouldn’t even give a shit about Spartan history right now. Is that not enough?

Chill the fuck out about the accuracy, people…