2010-2011 NBA Season 2.0

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981

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

Freakin Steve Nash has more MVPs than Kobe. That’s indefensible. [/quote]

And Steve Nash deserved it in the 2 years he won it.

It’s a SINGLE season award. [/quote]

No, he didn’t. Neither did Dirk the year he won it. Bryant deserved the award every one of those years, but he was fresh off his rape charge and the league couldn’t give its premier individual award to someone with so much negative media attention. Yes, Nash was the leader on the best team in the league but Bryant was single handedly putting up arena league football numbers by himself and everyone in the league - players, coaches, GM’s, ball balls, whatever - said he was the best player in the league, hands down. [/quote]

Bullshit.

MVP on an 12th place team? LOL C’mon son. In order to be the MVP you have a decent season finish and take your team somewhere.

The Lakers were terrible in those years. [/quote]

Nash was playing on the deepest team in the league. Bryant was sharing the backcourt with Smush Parker, and still took that team to the playoffs while having the most dominant scoring seasons of the modern era. Steve Nash is a wholesome Canadian who never got in trouble and was leading the leagues best regular season team. His numbers are the direct result of D’Antonis system, and if I have to post his pre-Suns stats [AGAIN], I will. Bryant’s sytem stifles his numbers and he’s still the best player in the league, and was so during the years in question, but he was coming off a blackeye to the league when Stern was doing everything in his power to appeal to a wider [read: MONEY SPENDING] demographic. Bullshit nothin’.[/quote]

Uhhh… As I said earlier in Nash’s first MVP season (2004-2005) Kobe led the Lakers to the 12th place finish. Part of being the MVP is leading your team to at LEAST a playoffs spot. I don’t care if he put up the greatest stats of all time, if he can’t get his team to the playoffs he doesn’t deserve it. You don’t give the MVP to a player on a 12th place team. In Nash’s second MVP season Lakers finished 7th.

Secondly, it’s unfair to discredit Nash’s numbers simply because he played in a system that suited him. It was not only him putting up big numbers but he was also the cause of players around him having career years. Six of his teammates averaged career highs in 2005-2006.

Amare hasn’t topped in his number from Nash’s MVP season to date.

I doubt Boris Diaw wins most improved player not playing with Nash.

I don’t doubt Kobe’s rape charges hurt his MVP chances, but I don’t believe for a second it was the main reason he didn’t win it. Steve Nash was the reason .

[/quote]

Well, Stoudamire also had a career threatening knee injury AND eye injury after that season, so it seems that has a lot more to do with it than anything Nash did 'cause guess what? He was still playing with Nash until this season. Diaw is a versatile 3-4 who fit in perfectly with the Suns, and he was routinely coming off the bench playing point forward when Nash was taking a breather. That entire system was designed to get guys a ton of open shots and score a ton of points. Yeah, Nash was a big part of that but pretty much any competent pg with good vision could’ve done well. Look at what Felton was doing under D’Antoni: CAREER HIGHS ACROSS THE BOARD. Don’t really know how else to put it. And, if you honestly think Nash was the reason that Bryant didn’t win at least one of those MVP’s then you’re more of a homer than I thought. You’re like the Canadian Rand.[/quote]

I’m not going to bother.

You’re ridiculous.

You gotta be mentally imbalanced to think a player on a 12th place team deserves the MVP.

982

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
The Suns finished 1st and 2nd in Nash’s seasons.

Are you seriously comparing Nash in 2004-2006 to Felton and Duhon?[/quote]

Of course not. I’m simply pointing out that a D’Antoni offense is EXTREMELY stat-friendly.

And when you consider that Nash played alongside the best forward combo in the league at the time, well, it’s not difficult to see where I’m going here…

[/quote]

You’re not giving Nash enough credit. A big reason they were the best forward combo was because of Nash. During those 2 years players around him were having career years all around him… and he was the cause.
[/quote]

Oh trust me, I love Stevie Nash and his game (I grew up during Magic and Showtime, so I’ll always be partial to playmakers ahead of pure scorers)

You’re not giving enough credit to all that talent PHO had assembled prior to signing Nash or those 2004 rule changes that allowed guys like Nash to flourish in the first place (remember now, DAL let him walk in that offseason BEFORE he won those MVPs)

edit - I need to credit Simmons for that last point: The Sports Guy: It's time to play 'What if?' - ESPN Page 2

983

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]randman wrote:

Freakin Steve Nash has more MVPs than Kobe. That’s indefensible. [/quote]

And Steve Nash deserved it in the 2 years he won it.

It’s a SINGLE season award. [/quote]

No, he didn’t. Neither did Dirk the year he won it. Bryant deserved the award every one of those years, but he was fresh off his rape charge and the league couldn’t give its premier individual award to someone with so much negative media attention. Yes, Nash was the leader on the best team in the league but Bryant was single handedly putting up arena league football numbers by himself and everyone in the league - players, coaches, GM’s, ball balls, whatever - said he was the best player in the league, hands down. [/quote]

Bullshit.

MVP on an 12th place team? LOL C’mon son. In order to be the MVP you have a decent season finish and take your team somewhere.

The Lakers were terrible in those years. [/quote]

Nash was playing on the deepest team in the league. Bryant was sharing the backcourt with Smush Parker, and still took that team to the playoffs while having the most dominant scoring seasons of the modern era. Steve Nash is a wholesome Canadian who never got in trouble and was leading the leagues best regular season team. His numbers are the direct result of D’Antonis system, and if I have to post his pre-Suns stats [AGAIN], I will. Bryant’s sytem stifles his numbers and he’s still the best player in the league, and was so during the years in question, but he was coming off a blackeye to the league when Stern was doing everything in his power to appeal to a wider [read: MONEY SPENDING] demographic. Bullshit nothin’.[/quote]

Uhhh… As I said earlier in Nash’s first MVP season (2004-2005) Kobe led the Lakers to the 12th place finish. Part of being the MVP is leading your team to at LEAST a playoffs spot. I don’t care if he put up the greatest stats of all time, if he can’t get his team to the playoffs he doesn’t deserve it. You don’t give the MVP to a player on a 12th place team. In Nash’s second MVP season Lakers finished 7th.

Secondly, it’s unfair to discredit Nash’s numbers simply because he played in a system that suited him. It was not only him putting up big numbers but he was also the cause of players around him having career years. Six of his teammates averaged career highs in 2005-2006.

Amare hasn’t topped in his number from Nash’s MVP season to date.

I doubt Boris Diaw wins most improved player not playing with Nash.

I don’t doubt Kobe’s rape charges hurt his MVP chances, but I don’t believe for a second it was the main reason he didn’t win it. Steve Nash was the reason .

[/quote]

Well, Stoudamire also had a career threatening knee injury AND eye injury after that season, so it seems that has a lot more to do with it than anything Nash did 'cause guess what? He was still playing with Nash until this season. Diaw is a versatile 3-4 who fit in perfectly with the Suns, and he was routinely coming off the bench playing point forward when Nash was taking a breather. That entire system was designed to get guys a ton of open shots and score a ton of points. Yeah, Nash was a big part of that but pretty much any competent pg with good vision could’ve done well. Look at what Felton was doing under D’Antoni: CAREER HIGHS ACROSS THE BOARD. Don’t really know how else to put it. And, if you honestly think Nash was the reason that Bryant didn’t win at least one of those MVP’s then you’re more of a homer than I thought. You’re like the Canadian Rand.[/quote]

I’m not going to bother.

You’re ridiculous.

You gotta be mentally imbalanced to think a player on a 12th place team deserves the MVP.
[/quote]

it depends on your definition of MVP. I don’t think a player’s crappy teammates should matter at all in determining how valuable he is. No player in NBA history could have led Kobe’s team to the best record in his conference, how is that his fault?

That being said… Nash has had remarkably consistent numbers despite 3 coaches and HUGELY different players rotating throughout that team. Take one look at NYK and tell me seriously his numbers are solely a result of D’Antoni? The way I see it, Nash without D’Antoni >>> D’Antoni without Nash.

Kobe deserved the award that year but to say Nash is solely a product of D’Antoni is horse shit.

984

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
The Suns finished 1st and 2nd in Nash’s seasons.

Are you seriously comparing Nash in 2004-2006 to Felton and Duhon?[/quote]

Of course not. I’m simply pointing out that a D’Antoni offense is EXTREMELY stat-friendly.

And when you consider that Nash played alongside the best forward combo in the league at the time, well, it’s not difficult to see where I’m going here…

[/quote]

You’re not giving Nash enough credit. A big reason they were the best forward combo was because of Nash. During those 2 years players around him were having career years all around him… and he was the cause.
[/quote]

Oh trust me, I love Stevie Nash and his game (I grew up during Magic and Showtime, so I’ll always be partial to playmakers ahead of pure scorers)

You’re not giving enough credit to all that talent PHO had assembled prior to signing Nash or those 2004 rule changes that allowed guys like Nash to flourish in the first place (remember now, DAL let him walk in that offseason BEFORE he won those MVPs)

edit - I need to credit Simmons for that last point: The Sports Guy: It's time to play 'What if?' - ESPN Page 2
[/quote]

Sure maybe in 2004. But Kobe took his team nowhere in 2004. Look at the starting lineup in 2005-2006

C Boris Diaw
PF Marion
SF Tim Thomas
SG Raja Bell
PG Steve Nash

You call this an incredibly talented team he was surrounded by??

The arguments about “rule changes” and “D’Antoni’s system” are bullshit. Fact is, Nash performed under the conditions he was under which is what matters. And that’s all you can judge him by.

You can’t discredit him for the NBA having rules that favour his style of play or having a coach that knows how to optimize his talents.

985

[quote]scj119 wrote:

No player in NBA history could have led Kobe’s team to the best record in his conference, how is that his fault?

[/quote]

Because part of being the MVP is leading your team to some sort of relevance. Nobody cares about a guy who leads a team that is destined to finish 15th to 12th.

986

You can’t separate winning and stats when it comes to the MVP.

987

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Kobe deserved the award that year but to say Nash is solely a product of D’Antoni is horse shit.[/quote]

when was such a claim ever made??

WTF, it’s like straw-man season around these forums lately…

988

[quote]therajraj wrote:
The arguments about “rule changes” and “D’Antoni’s system” are bullshit. Fact is, Nash performed under the conditions he was under which is what matters. And that’s all you can judge him by.
[/quote]

No offense, but your excessive use of the term “bullshit” has me convinced you don’t actually know what it means.

edit - just to elaborate, this recent surge of dominant PG play that we discussed earlier (CP3, Deron, D Rose, Westbrook et al) is a DIRECT result of the rule changes that outlawed the handcheck/forearm bar on the perimeter. Hence your dismissal of this as a “bullshit” factor for Nash’s success is, in fact, bullshit in its own right and fairly egregiously so.

989

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

No player in NBA history could have led Kobe’s team to the best record in his conference, how is that his fault?

[/quote]

Because part of being the MVP is leading your team to some sort of relevance. Nobody cares about a guy who leads a team that is destined to finish 15th to 12th.

[/quote]

Since Kobe has been with the Lakers they HAVE NEVER finished 12th-15th in the Western Conference. I dont know where you are getting your info from? NEVER once in his entire career have they finished 12th or worse.

990

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

No player in NBA history could have led Kobe’s team to the best record in his conference, how is that his fault?

[/quote]

Because part of being the MVP is leading your team to some sort of relevance. Nobody cares about a guy who leads a team that is destined to finish 15th to 12th.

[/quote]

Since Kobe has been with the Lakers they HAVE NEVER finished 12th-15th in the Western Conference. I dont know where you are getting your info from? NEVER once in his entire career have they finished 12th or worse.[/quote]

It says they finished 12th.

Hrmmm… but after checking nba.com they finished 11th. Either way it really doesn’t change anything. You’re harping on a moot point

991

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
The arguments about “rule changes” and “D’Antoni’s system” are bullshit. Fact is, Nash performed under the conditions he was under which is what matters. And that’s all you can judge him by.
[/quote]

No offense, but your excessive use of the term “bullshit” has me convinced you don’t actually know what it means.

edit - just to elaborate, this recent surge of dominant PG play that we discussed earlier (CP3, Deron, D Rose, Westbrook et al) is a DIRECT result of the rule changes that outlawed the handcheck/forearm bar on the perimeter. Hence your dismissal of this as a “bullshit” factor for Nash’s success is, in fact, bullshit in its own right and fairly egregiously so.
[/quote]

I already acknowledged the fact the rule change benefitted Nash.

I’m saying it’s BULLSHIT to hold that against him. He played well under the conditions of the NBA.

992

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
Kobe deserved the award that year but to say Nash is solely a product of D’Antoni is horse shit.[/quote]

when was such a claim ever made??

WTF, it’s like straw-man season around these forums lately…[/quote]

Probably when you wrote this:

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
And Steve Nash deserved it in the 2 years he won it.[/quote]

Well, we thought he did.

And then we saw freaking Chris Duhon and Ray Felton put up similarly-inflated stats in a D’Antoni offense…

[/quote]

993

To add I never said the Lakers finished 15th. I said Kobe took a team DESTINED to finish 15th and had them finish 12th.

Apparently they actually finished 11th.

994

Sorry raj, but there’s nothing in that post (or my posting history in NBA threads) to imply my point-of-view is so unsophisticated/elementary as to SOLELY attribute anything in a team game such as this.

But whatever, this is a tired topic by now and yall are gonna see whatever you want to see anyway…

995

can’t we all just be freinds

996

Me and raj are trying to make this as simple as possible for some on here. All the others are unnecessarily making the MVP award seem like a complex thing. Steve Nash was the main dude, the facilitator, the heart, whatever you want to call it on the best team in the league at the time. Hmmm who would that be in the 2010-2011 season. DRose right? I guess hes a product of the Tom Thibodeau system, since hes having his MVP season during Thib’s first head coaching gig.

According to some of the stuff I’ve read recently in this thread the MVP this year should go to LeBron James. He’s got the best stats out of all the contenders like Kobe had those years when Nash and Dirk won. Except LeBron’s case is stronger because his team is at least top three in his conference!

997

BIG win for Houston over the Spurs giving SA their 6th straight loss.

Do you guys think the Rockets would be more deserving of the #8 spot in the West as opposed to the Grizzlies or the Hornets?

998

Wow, I completely shut down Raj’s whole “They had career years with Nash!!! He’s the best!” arguement and he responds by calling me mentally imbalanced. I generally like Raj but he’s starting to make Rand look rational.

999

[quote]Teledin wrote:
BIG win for Houston over the Spurs giving SA their 6th straight loss.

Do you guys think the Rockets would be more deserving of the #8 spot in the West as opposed to the Grizzlies or the Hornets?[/quote]

The team that makes that 8 spot is the most deserving team. I’m a native Houstonian and would love to see them make it but the Grizz are playing really well right now, especially considering Gay’s been gone for a month or so now. Not sure of the standings off the top of my head but pretty sure the Grizz are all but a lock.

1000

[quote]Teledin wrote:
BIG win for Houston over the Spurs giving SA their 6th straight loss.

Do you guys think the Rockets would be more deserving of the #8 spot in the West as opposed to the Grizzlies or the Hornets?[/quote]

Its lookin like LAL heard about that at halftime

So that #8 spot isn’t looking nearly as attractive as it had looked just about all season long…