Are you guys implying junk food sources of any given macro ratio are equal to wholesome foods in proper macro ratios for muscle building? Perhaps as an initial goal of pure weight gain this could be a consideration but if you want to fine tune the physique as you grow I would have to disagree.
I have not experienced a noticable difference whether i eat clean or complete junk. As long as protein is present, in my experience only total calories matter. People in the world live on the most random diets - asians eat lots of white rice, eskimoes eat mostly pure whale fat etc. We adapt to everything
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Across the board regardless of personal opinions a caloric dense and nutritionally dense meal is better than fast food.
Giving advice to eat poorly is a disservice to the unknowing members.
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Yes but most asians are not trying to be body builders nor most eskimos. Further look at the average body type of each and you will see a significant difference due to both of those diets. Thereby macros matter over pure calories when a specific physique outcome is desired. I’m not going to pretend to be an expert in the matter as I just started researching nutrition last year. After lifting for 20+ years and being stagnant I decided to get serious about nutrition. For me, its legit and works but its the hardest aspect of body building.
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My bit about stopping at Wendy’s for a double burger and chili, maybe needs some context. I think if one has a goal for gaining a certain weight, and they are not achieving it, and they are not hungry because of eating a lot of food, then it can be a good idea. That type of eating can be balanced out with other cleaner choices through the day. OP is eating what we would call BBing foods, but isn’t eating enough to gain.
I also wouldn’t call everything from a fast food place junk. There are choices that can be made to make it more suitable to ones goals. A double meat burrito bowl (with a no calorie drink or water), isn’t the same as a big mac, large fry and coke. Ronnie Coleman ate out often (at least from what I can tell from his videos), but he made much better choices than most people. His genetics also allowed him to get away with more IMO, but we also aren’t trying to get to his level.
Not entirely. I do believe for most that calories and protein matter the most, and should be prioritized. If carbs and fats fluctuate day to day a bit, I think that is fine (for most), if calories from those macros fill up the needed calories.
If we are trying to be close to optimal, then yes, whole food with dialed in macros becomes really important, but there is a large return on investment by hitting calories and protein, I think much smaller going from hitting calories and protein to clean food and dialed macros. I could be wrong though.
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I think this says enough. If you want to gain, you need to eat. It does not matter if you eat 50/30/20 or 40/60/40. IMO you need to do 2 things:
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Eat a surplus of 3-500 kcals maybe even larger but at least that
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Get your body weight in g of protein
If those are fulfilled, the bulk will work. Especially when roids are in the picture, the body composition will end up better than natural.
Every single one of the good bodybuilders were fat af during the off season, besides maybe Ronnie (as he claimed).
I don’t think it matter for a time period of a few months where you really get the calories from
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Better in what area? What are you trying to prevent?
The truth is especially beginners lack the discipline to eat enough, therefore their results will suffer immensely. The results in the first 1-3 years of bodybuilding will be way better if you are not afraid to eat some junk food to get the calories in.
Yes fat guys shouldn’t stuff their face. Most guys I see between 16 and 18 at the gym are thin as hell though. They need to eat.
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This is the exact mentality that gives IIFYM such a bad rap. Wholesome foods that fit your macros are always the best choice.
I don’t believe using guys with the O title as an example for the OP is the best course - considering he weighs 176lbs and has already decided to cycle Tren. Yes, those guys are so far beyond their genetic limits that they have to do literally whatever it takes to put on size, but that simply does not apply to this OP, or most people for that matter.
OP needs to eat more, but also needs to eat foods that carry some form of phytonutritional value - like most BBers say is essential. Just because you can fit a Bic Mac into your macros, doesn’t mean you should… More than that, it is likely far less effective than wholesome foods of the same nutritional value.
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Your points are straw man arguments. Who has the money to eat out several times a day? Who wants to eat burgers every day 3 times? Nobody.
If I need to spell it out for you guys, then alright. I am talking about eating your normal food as you would at maintenance. That consists of all the standard stuff like rice, fruits veggies, meat, and so on. That’s your baseline of probably 2000-2700 kcalories. Then you up the amounts to say 3200 kcal. By pure logic the protein need is then met. Usually the micro needs are also met. After that most people struggle eating more, either because of time or because these foods are too filling. Then you add in junk. One Big Mac a day, that’s 500 kcals extra and contains all macros.
Then here’s additional points. It does not matter if you fill up anywhere from 10-40% of your diet with junk. So from 3500 kcals, 1500 could come from junk if you’re strapped on time. A burger is a great bulking food. Protein and calories are the defining factors in the end.
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Eh… not really applicable man. What the top tier guys do to get big and then what they take to lean down pales in comparison to what you can do naturally or assisted within reasonable AAS use.
Yes I would agree and they used drugs like T3, mega doses of HGH, steroids and things to the level most could not touch. For natural or slightly assisted body building its best NOT to get fat at all. Its both healthier for your body but also for your mind to figure out how to stay relatively lean and learn discipline.
I realize you like the kitchen sink approach now and sure it will work to put on weight. No doubt. But thats not going to get 90% of dudes where they want. Its just going to get them fat.
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I don’t agree at all. All of the big guys at my gym were fat to gain the muscle at one point. There’s no muscle gain without fat gain. Often the ratio as a natural is also quite poor, like 1:3
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Well we will agree to disagree I guess. I will openly admit I used this approach that you speak of for almost 20 years. Now that I semi figured out nutrition planning I have made more progress than ever. Just my .2 cents.
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They really aren’t… It’s an example to counter your statement of “it doesn’t matter where you get the calories from”.
Provide a study and I’ll change my opinion.
Do you mean they were fat, of FAT? That’s the difference between choosing wholesome foods and whateverthefuck fits your macros.
It is not. Provided calories are the same, they will be exactly as fat.
You know I like studies but you probably know that there’s none.
Provided protein intake is sufficient. You can’t eat twinkies all day and habe sufficient protein except for when you eat only twinkies and then drink a gallon of protein shake. Again, who does that? Be realistic. Don’t argue against the straw man “you can eat anything and gain muscle”
Argue against the points I made when I laid out an example day. Eating 2000 calories clean and 1500 burgers and muffins is Better than eating 2500 and wondering why you don’t gain muscle. Then taking Tren to offset the lack of calories. There’s no lack of real food here; it’s simply a lack of energy.
I still disagree. OP is eating only lean proteins, no red meat, and hasn’t suggested that 2400 cals is too much for him. If he were at the point where he physically couldn’t eat any more ‘clean’ foods and still wasn’t gaining, then I would say adding in some less healthy shit might be warranted - but that is not the case.
Having a diverse consumption of proteins, fats, and carbs is far more beneficial than just eating random shit to meet calorie intake. Saying it doesn’t matter where it comes from is arguing that going all protein and fats is more effective than having sufficient carbs (which are proven to be very anabolic).
I know you’re going to disagree with me, and that is okay - I just think that the OP needs to understand what proper nutrition is… He’s eating the right foods, but nowhere near enough of it.
He doesn’t do his research, as evidenced by taking Tren while still well within natty weight range… I don’t think giving him the kitchen sink approach is the best way to go with this in mind.
Look, I agree with your post, I think you don’t understand where I’m coming from and argue against the straw man if eat what you want.
We agree that OP does not eat enough. We agree that he eats enough protein. So what is lacking? Fats and carbs. Where do we get fats and carbs? From upping the carb sources, say rice or noodles or potatoes. Where do we get fats from? Fatter meat, peanut butter, oil, coconut milk. Where do we get more from when we can’t eat anymore if that? Easier digestible stuff, like bread, muffins, more noodles.
So what would be a good food that has more fat and more carbs than protein, contains fatty meat and bread and even some vegetables? A burger.
Just add a burger for 500-1000 kcals and you’re good. Why make it more complicated than it is.
When I’m bulking like right now, I often am at home in the evening at 10 pm and I still need 500 kcals. Do I then cook another bowl of rice? No, I just eat a muffin and a yogurt, done. Did I eat all the stuff OP eats all day before that? Yes. Would it be better to eat rice with vegetables instead again? No, not for my goal. I need the calories convenient at that point.
Just fill it up with “junk”. Easy. What even is junk? You think someone eats a complete pack of gummy bears everyday to get 500 kcals?
Why not eat some cake, some fries, some burgers, a milkshake, etc. to get more calories in after a certain point? For me that certain point is reached at 3000-3200 kcals. I don’t want to eat more, but I have to, so I do it enjoyable. That the definition of the IIFYM paradigm. Eat good clean stuff to a certain point, then fill it up with whatever you want.
If you disagree, I will not hold you back from eating rice and chicken for 4000 kcals a day. I just don’t do it and nobody I know that looks like he lifts does.
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I agree with this, but I think this can be achieved with some amount of “junk” food. I do think when gaining, one should try to maintain some level of having abs (faint abs), if you go much past that, the amount of time spent dieting (cutting) to get lean again is too counter productive. But gaining some fat during a bulk is beneficial to ensure calories are sufficient for close to optimal muscle growth.
I do think there is nuance in this discussion that is being missed. I believe @lordgains suggested 10-40% of a diet being “junk” being okay, and I believe he means not total junk like soda, and Twinkies, but stuff like burgers, burritos, etc. Individual differences need to be accounted for as well. Different advice would be needed for a 150 lb teen or early 20s guy, vs a 250 lb 40 year old trying to lose weight.
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I agree 100%. The definition of fat I use is around 20% BF. That’s at the top of we’re I go during a bulk.
That’s not OPs problem though, with 176 at nearly my height and steroids.
People in Africa, and nowdays in Ukraine eat poorly.
Eating so much you actually gain weight is nowhere near “poorly”.
A person who can afford more than 1 meal a day, is considered to eat pretty well, in my book.
You are focusing on first world problems.
They may be talking from an American perspective where 13 year olds roll around at 225 