[quote]on edge wrote:
Would you argue with Neil Armstrong about what itās like on the moon too?[/quote]
Would Neil Armstrong argue with you about what itās like to never go to the moon?
What I mean is, there are probably false assumptions on both sides. There are some very long-term, happily married people who just got lucky and thatās all they know. (not saying you; I know nothing about you). Likewise there are people who have struggled with long term relationships in which the other party was horrible to them and thatās all they know.
Iād be pretty despondent if I ascribed what Orion was saying to all women, but at the same time, I honestly do believe that pretty much everything he says is true for at least some women. I wonāt attempt to define what āsomeā is, but it is surely a noticeable proportion.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Pretty sure that I hate you.[/quote]
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Of course his experiences have made him insecure. What else? And mine have made me insecure. Iām sure if we allowed it, we could both tip over into bitterness. We choose not to. My ex-husband and I have reasons to feel bitterness toward each other, but we both work to hold it at bay. Weāre friends, or at least working in that direction. Heās called when heās needed support a couple of times recently and I know I could do the same.
There is nothing in the red pill worth having. It is joylessness and loneliness.[/quote]
Nonsense, there are men who try very hard to āgameā their wives and often with success.
Why?
Because they love them and their wives love it.
However, this was not about how it makes you feel.
It was about him reading it and his reaction to it.
And that you are afraid of.
Plus, has your ex actually done anything for you?
I bet he has.
You would, possibly, do things for him?
That means you have not.
You are turning him into a beta orbiter.
That is instinctual too. [/quote]
Iām not afraid of his reaction to it, Iām afraid heāll think Iām an idiot for showing him a screed written by a mouth-foaming misogynist. Just as I would find his judgment questionable if he showed me poorly written political rantings and asked my opinion. Do you remember that bit I quoted back recently, about the wife whose friend took the book banning personally? It was embarrassing in its complete lack of generalizable meaning or accuracy of message. Also, I personally find book-banners narrow and foolish, as he would. This is your messenger, orion. Thereās a problem.
My boyfriend is a smart guy with a cynical bent who understands both personally and universally the risks involved in marriage and having children. Heās familiar with the content on the internet, so I am sure heās come across various pro-male, anti-female stuff. He is also able to form his own judgments, both of the world and the individuals in it.
His pool of friends, like mine, contains long-term happy couples and multiply divorced people. In most cases itās very easy to see what personal qualities each brings that has impacted the outcome.
As for the stuff about my ex, Iām not sure what youāre saying. We have a long history of doing things for one another. I am not without resources, practical as well as emotional. Heās not nearby, so if I need a heavy box lifted Iām not looking to him. Heās not my beta orbiter, heās a member of my extended family; someone whose history Iāve shared for a long time. And I make a good friend, in my exās case a much better friend than wife, because as a friend I have no expectation of healthy sex, no expectation that weāll go outside and enjoy the day, no expectation that heāll deal with his depression. He doesnāt have to any longer anguish over whether Iām smarter than he is, feel pressured by my desire for a social life, or worry that Iām going to want to talk about money management when he prefers to ignore it and wander around in a state of passive suicidality. And for all those same reasons in reverse, he makes a better friend than husband for me.
There is nothing sinister at play here. You keep assuming that I am jockeying for dominance in these relationships, but I am not. I donāt care about that. [/quote]
You are noz jockeying for dominance, you are jockeying for dominance in the instinctual hope that you will lose.
You dont want to be on top, but you have to try and fail.
Then, as I said, I posted the link to the most non offending site there is in this area, you did not even look at it.
It is funny how I am the one closed to evidence that would make my views invalid, because I certainly do seek out information that might nuke my preconceived notions.
Stay on the safe side Emily, its where the proper and righteous people live. [/quote]
Okay, I spent some time browsing the site tonight. I apologize; itās been linked before and when I clicked on it and saw a familiar picture assumed it was the one with the banned-book-rage-lady. What I will say now, having read it, is that there arenāt any surprises there for me, nor would there be for my boyfriend. Iām not sure what safe, proper, righteous life you think I live, but I suspect that my exclusive-relationship sex life is probably more varied than yours, simply because weāre two imaginative people who trust each other and reinforce one anotherās willingness to push limits. He knows exactly how to exercise his kind of control, while I know the power of my āclassic girlish ponytailā because heās told me - and shown me - how much he likes my hair that way. I wear it that way sometimes because it pleases me to please him. I do a lot of things for that reason.
You imagine that I, and all women, fight this instinctively. I donāt. I like him being a boy and he likes me being a girl and we are not in a struggle of any sort. Your blog makes the point that both alpha and beta traits are needed to āhit the sweet spot.ā I think thatās what I and my boyfriend and all of the men on here arguing with you already know.
He doesnāt need to be some sort of negging asshole to make me ātingle.ā Just the opposite, because I deserve and expect better.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Iām amazed by two things about this thread. One is that it is still going. How you people still have stuff to talk about past page 3 is a mystery to me. Are you still making new points or just rehashing the same old shit? Iām not going to read to find out but i am a little curious.
[/quote]
Rehashing the same old shit, as usual. God, I love the internet.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Pretty sure that I hate you.[/quote]
[/quote]
You are def my fave of a nut, Mr. G.
XOXOXOX[/quote]
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
He doesnāt need to be some sort of negging asshole to make me ātingle.ā Just the opposite, because I deserve and expect better. [/quote]
I dont think you understand the concept of āneggingā at all.
There is a video out there about some PUA who tells a girl at a club āyou are a whore! A whore! A white trash whore!ā
I know what that reads like, but in that specific situation it was hilarious and she almost loses control of her bladder because she laughs so hard.
You can see a ānegā in action, I posted one above.
Do you honestly think she was insulted?
No, she was amused.
The second thing is, you dont go around with your little playbook and deliver some prefabricated lines, the moment you internalized that ITS OK, you just are.
That is the moment that women who think that game does not work are utterly unable to believe that you ever were and behaved differently.
It just does not compute for them.
What on earth is attractive about having sex with women that one despises? Nurturing your deepest wounds and basest instincts for what? Mere rutting.
These phantasies of persecution by castrating females and beta males are some of the most startling examples of what Melanie Klein called the paranoid-schizoid position. Here is me wishing integration for those of you so afflicted.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
What on earth is attractive about having sex with women that one despises? Nurturing your deepest wounds and basest instincts for what? Mere rutting.
These phantasies of persecution by castrating females and beta males are some of the most startling examples of what Melanie Klein called the paranoid-schizoid position. Here is me wishing integration for those of you so afflicted.[/quote]
Its not paranoid if they are after you.
And welcome back.
Though I would have to look it up, schizoid just feels wrong, because those are people with a strong aversion to social situations, if anything the best quirk to have would be cluster B related.
AH, have looked it up, there is definitely something do it.
However, most men that go down that road grow beyond that.
What you are missing IMO is that you cannot jump stages of development, you have to go through them, there are no shortcuts.
So, what you identify as a likely mental problem might as well be just growing pains.
[quote]orion wrote:
Though I would have to look it up, schizoid just feels wrong, because those are people with a strong aversion to social situations, if anything the best quirk to have would be cluster B related. [/quote]
The terminology has lost favor as diagnoses like schizophrenia and autism have come to be recognized for their organic etiologies, rather than as expressions of abnormal psychic processes in otherwise healthy brains. The paranoid-schizoid position is developed as an infant is frustrated by what he or she wants but is denied; the infant is not capable of reconciling the good, giving mother with the mother that withholds, and must split the internal representation of the mother (the object) into pure good and pure evil. Hence āschizoid.ā The child projects his or her own death instincts onto the bad object, who acts those instincts out against the child in phantasy. Hence, paranoid.
But no, they arenāt out to get you. There are some women, and some men, who will take advantage of you if they have half a chance. Horrible human beings live everywhere. But there is such a thing as true friendship, and women are capable of it. They are even capable of loving the same man they are friends with.
Itās an astonishing hypothesis, but I hope you give it some thought.
[quote]orion wrote:
What you are missing IMO is that you cannot jump stages of development, you have to go through them, there are no shortcuts.
So, what you identify as a likely mental problem might as well be just growing pains. [/quote]
I chose the terms precisely because of Kleinās emphasis that positions are not mere phases or stages of development, but emotional and psychological stances we may assume at various moments in our lives. Not because Iām trying to diagnose a mental problem - Iām certainly not qualified to do that. I think you and most of the other men are capable of adopting the depressive position, making reparations to your internal objects, and recognizing that other people (including women) are mixtures of good and bad who can have positive influences on our lives.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Though I would have to look it up, schizoid just feels wrong, because those are people with a strong aversion to social situations, if anything the best quirk to have would be cluster B related. [/quote]
The terminology has lost favor as diagnoses like schizophrenia and autism have come to be recognized for their organic etiologies, rather than as expressions of abnormal psychic processes in otherwise healthy brains. The paranoid-schizoid position is developed as an infant is frustrated by what he or she wants but is denied; the infant is not capable of reconciling the good, giving mother with the mother that withholds, and must split the internal representation of the mother (the object) into pure good and pure evil. Hence āschizoid.ā The child projects his or her own death instincts onto the bad object, who acts those instincts out against the child in phantasy. Hence, paranoid.
But no, they arenāt out to get you. There are some women, and some men, who will take advantage of you if they have half a chance. Horrible human beings live everywhere. But there is such a thing as true friendship, and women are capable of it. They are even capable of loving the same man they are friends with.
Itās an astonishing hypothesis, but I hope you give it some thought.[/quote]
Well, have you seen the link I posted in another thread that a whopping 30% of all college kids seem to range very high when it comes to narcissism?
That is a bit more than āsomeā.
Combine that with ever growing excpectations when it comes to their partners the more they have achieved and a divorce law that in essence is very tilted to favor women and you got a perfect storm on your hands.
Would you really like stand in a courtroom with a woman that has no problem whatsover to lie or cheat to get her way, that is utterly unable to feel empathy and just so happens to hold your children hostage?
Its not paranoia if its true.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
What you are missing IMO is that you cannot jump stages of development, you have to go through them, there are no shortcuts.
So, what you identify as a likely mental problem might as well be just growing pains. [/quote]
I chose the terms precisely because of Kleinās emphasis that positions are not mere phases or stages of development, but emotional and psychological stances we may assume at various moments in our lives. Not because Iām trying to diagnose a mental problem - Iām certainly not qualified to do that. I think you and most of the other men are capable of adopting the depressive position, making reparations to your internal objects, and recognizing that other people (including women) are mixtures of good and bad who can have positive influences on our lives.[/quote]
Look, most pedestalizers and pussy whorshippers idealize women to an unhealthy degree.
They need some solid rage to break through and they are depressed and angry and bitter and whatnot.
Hopefully only for a while, but its absolutely necessary.
After a while they get a more nuanced picture, like my postition that yes, all women are like that, but some are not a dick about it.
It needs to happen, nobody abandons a set of believes he is deeply invested in if not because of and living through emotional trauma.
[quote]orion wrote:
Well, have you seen the link I posted in another thread that a whopping 30% of all college kids seem to range very high when it comes to narcissism?
That is a bit more than āsomeā.
Combine that with ever growing excpectations when it comes to their partners the more they have achieved and a divorce law that in essence is very tilted to favor women and you got a perfect storm on your hands.
Would you really like stand in a courtroom with a woman that has no problem whatsover to lie or cheat to get her way, that is utterly unable to feel empathy and just so happens to hold your children hostage?
Its not paranoia if its true. [/quote]
It is easy to be a misogynist when I think of women in the abstract, and start drawing conclusions from there. Yet, when I think of actual women I know in my life, I canāt think of many who were utterly unable to feel empathy. I know selfish people who still feel empathy, and respond to the immediate pain of others. I know people who get angry and say things they donāt mean, but feel bad about it later. And I know people who put othersā needs ahead of their own, at least some of the time, even if it isnāt always to their planned benefit. The only people I know who exhibited the kind of psychopathic behavior you describe were kids, and most of them had grown beyond it by the end of high school. Be bitter for a while if you have to be to get over your past trauma. Ultimately, however, the onus is on you to move on with your life and stop blaming others for your pain. Misogyny is a crutch.