WTF Penn State?!?!?!

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And now the digging has begun…I am sure this sort of thing is VERY common in D1 football, but at a school that prides itself on “winning with honor” all these skeletons are gonna be bad.

Meh. VERY common indeed. It’s no secret that student/athletes at big programs are given more lee-way than their fellow students. Personally, I’m not very troubled by that in principle. Life is not fair. When you enter the workplace and adult life, we are not treated equally. By the time you’re a year into your very first paying job, you will realize that such disparity of treatment is a fact of life.

The problem for me is when the student/athlete conduct crossed the line to criminal conduct. A fight is one thing. Beating people unconscious, breaking in apartments, etc. are other matters altogether. That Joe sought to protect his players makes him no different than many other big name college coaches but it does ring hypocritical and antithetical to his preaching about honor and integrity. That said, his desire to protect players could easily be taken out of context and misrepresented too.

A certain amount of protection for the student/athlete however IS in order. These are still kids by and large. They make mistakes. If student Joe Smith does something stupid, we’re not reading about it and we’re not watching it on ESPN. If student/athlete Joe Smith does something stupid, we are watching it on ESPN and reading about it. College kids are largely ill prepared for such a level of scrutiny and to that extent, I understand a coach wanting to protect his players…up to a point. These athletes are largely Alpha Male kids, with loads of hormones and maybe a history of being coddled. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t treat them this way, but the adults in their lives are to blame, not the kids that were never conditioned for the responsibilities that lie ahead for a high profile college athlete.

We’ll see how everything shakes out. But at this point, this kinda reeks of mud-slinging and piling on by a disgruntled former employee. There are serious allegations of abuse afoot here and what Joe did to protect some players long ago only distracts us from the real issue; getting to the bottom of this scandal and unearthing the culpable parties. running interference for his players is a far cry from running interference for Sandusky so he can abuse little boys.

As far as Joe and football are concerned, at the end of the day (to quote from the article) PSU “players graduated at rates far above average, and it is one of only four major-conference athletic programs never to have been sanctioned for major violations by the sport’s governing body, the NCAA.” That accomplishment deserves some respect and the attached article does little to undermine that. Yeah…football players at PSU get disparate treatment from a regular student. Duh. Tell us something we don’t know?[/quote]

Oh fully agree…but when one takes the highest of high roads (Paterno) and preaches honor and class…you are not allowed to be just like “the rest”

And the disgruntled former employee was one of the highest ranking VP’s on campus, and according to the e-mails…Paterno had her fired. That is kind of smelly to me.[/quote]

Well, to conclude they are “just like the rest” would be to ignore the higher graduation rates and the lack of major NCAA infractions. Their record is clear that they are “not like the rest” no matter how much other programs want mileage off the Sandusky matter. At the end of the day, Sandusky aside, they are not “just like the rest”. Are they perfect? No. I don’t even think that’s possible in the realm of big college athletics.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there. [/quote]

Yes, but institutional control (lack thereof) is mucho scary to a big time money making program.

Ask SMU/Miami/Ohio State

^‘unconditional’ transfer?

minimally, one condition i would suggest is that they not be involved in obstructing justice by harassing or intimidating anyone involved in the case

Looks like the death penalty to me.

[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:
^‘unconditional’ transfer?

minimally, one condition i would suggest is that they not be involved in obstructing justice by harassing or intimidating anyone involved in the case[/quote]

if you are an NCAA athlete and you transfer from one school to another you have to sit out a year (in almost all cases)

Thats that I mean… that current athletes at the school (freshmen, sophomore, juniors) should be able to go to another school after this season without haveing to sit out a year.

Get it?

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there. [/quote]

Yes, but institutional control (lack thereof) is mucho scary to a big time money making program.

Ask SMU/Miami/Ohio State[/quote]

Not scary unless it’s true. If it’s true, they deserve what SMU/Miami/Ohio State et als received. If unfounded, they deserve that too. We generally get what we deserve.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there. [/quote]

Yes, but institutional control (lack thereof) is mucho scary to a big time money making program.

Ask SMU/Miami/Ohio State[/quote]

Not scary unless it’s true. If it’s true, they deserve what SMU/Miami/Ohio State et als received. If unfounded, they deserve that too. We generally get what we deserve. [/quote]

The thing about the NCAA is that they don’t even have to find out if its true or not to level sanctions. They are the judge, jury and executioner on NCAA issues.

With the USC case they never proved that anyone at the school knew anything about the improper benifits but the NCAA said 'weeeeeeell we cant prove that you knew about it… but you should have known! so here are your sanctions."

With the Auburn/Cam Newton case they said 'We know your dad solicited money for your play and that is against the rules, making you ineligible… but naaaaah. You can play."

The NCAA is messed up.

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there. [/quote]

Yes, but institutional control (lack thereof) is mucho scary to a big time money making program.

Ask SMU/Miami/Ohio State[/quote]

Not scary unless it’s true. If it’s true, they deserve what SMU/Miami/Ohio State et als received. If unfounded, they deserve that too. We generally get what we deserve. [/quote]

The thing about the NCAA is that they don’t even have to find out if its true or not to level sanctions. They are the judge, jury and executioner on NCAA issues.

With the USC case they never proved that anyone at the school knew anything about the improper benifits but the NCAA said 'weeeeeeell we cant prove that you knew about it… but you should have known! so here are your sanctions."

With the Auburn/Cam Newton case they said 'We know your dad solicited money for your play and that is against the rules, making you ineligible… but naaaaah. You can play."

The NCAA is messed up.[/quote]

Todd McNair is a friend of mine. I know.

seems like a good point to re-cap:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/jerry-sandusky-penn-state-football-sexual-abuse-scandal-tim-curley-gary-schultz-how-could-administration-let-it-happen110511

this is the article from the original post of this thread, entitled ‘Why Didn’t Anyone Help?’

it poses rhetorical questions that can be answered now:
because loud and aggressive people care more about things other than abuse
in fact, abuse is natural to them. the difference in what type of abuse is committed is hair-spliting

why did the witnesses flee and not report what they had seen to police?
because a culture of abuse weeds out the type of people who would do those sorts of things
high-minded people who demonstrate that unsettling quality known as ‘integrity’ just are never allowed anywhere near where something precious is going on, to threaten the sanctity of the sacredness with their nattering about ‘rape’ and those things that don’t mean anything to someone concerned with the big game

why don’t people speak up?
because anytime an issue like this is raised, a huge wall of noise demonstrating solidarity with the principle of keeping-your-mouth-shut and don’t-rock-the-boat is raised all around them

http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/23/2996933/corbett-sidesteps-blame-for-not.html

Pa’s governor and attorney general who knew about Sandusky for at least three years and who did nothing until this year.
Paterno was crucified but this msn did not alert the BOT in anyway . Seems interesting how the politicians are acting now when there are no more scape goats .

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And I think that the Athletic Department is only begining to see the shit storm brew…this is NOT the letter you want to get during all this.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pennstatencaaletter2.pdf[/quote]

The letter is entirely fair and they should welcome the chance to tell their side of it to the extent they can disclose information during the criminal proceedings. This had to come. No surprises there. [/quote]

Yes, but institutional control (lack thereof) is mucho scary to a big time money making program.

Ask SMU/Miami/Ohio State[/quote]

Not scary unless it’s true. If it’s true, they deserve what SMU/Miami/Ohio State et als received. If unfounded, they deserve that too. We generally get what we deserve. [/quote]

The thing about the NCAA is that they don’t even have to find out if its true or not to level sanctions. They are the judge, jury and executioner on NCAA issues.

With the USC case they never proved that anyone at the school knew anything about the improper benifits but the NCAA said 'weeeeeeell we cant prove that you knew about it… but you should have known! so here are your sanctions."

With the Auburn/Cam Newton case they said 'We know your dad solicited money for your play and that is against the rules, making you ineligible… but naaaaah. You can play."

The NCAA is messed up.[/quote]

Todd McNair is a friend of mine. I know. [/quote]

Truth.

There is virtually no traditional legal process with the NCAA…no court of appeals.

It’s totally up to the PMS level of the Committee on Infractions and how bad they feel like fisting you that particular day.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/23/2996933/corbett-sidesteps-blame-for-not.html

Pa’s governor and attorney general who knew about Sandusky for at least three years and who did nothing until this year.
Paterno was crucified but this msn did not alert the BOT in anyway . Seems interesting how the politicians are acting now when there are no more scape goats .[/quote]

i don’t get it
the article seems to be criticising him because he didn’t do anything to tip the bad guys off

he had inside information about the investigation because he had been the attorney general beforehand and carried on as normal and did nothing to indicate there was an investigation going on that might have given them an opportunity to get their stories straight or destroy evidence

if he had voiced any concerns to the University board at that point, it would have filtered through an organisation that was already demonstrated to be unable to police itself

that’s what the whole scandal is about
that they had 2 decades to deal with this internally and did not

so why would he let them know they were being investigated by someone independent who was going to straighten it out for good?

Are you seriously that obtuse? Paterno was criticized and got many tines more media coverage than the alleged perpetrator. The msn who reported what he heard to his superiors. And now the politicians who could have done more are back pedaling when the spotlight is shined on them.
Why did Corbett take campaign contributions from the second mile? Why did he approve 3 million dollars from the state budget from the charity after he knew about Sandusky? Seriously? Some people here are retarded .

That’s the rub with some. Two people tried to do something and were vilified while others aren’t an iconic football coach do they’re boring to cover and blame. We currently have another scandal brewing at syracuse , one of the top two broadcast journalism schools in the country. Espn employees 200 Syracuse graduates. Espn was alerted about this back in 2005 and did not find any evidence to proceed in their words . Now if it’s proven will they be crucified since they didn’t go to the police?

Until recently Bernie Fine was still assistant head coach at syracuse . Should Boheim have know about this if it is proven?
The same questions were asked and answered about paterno without all the facts by espn and others.

[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
http://www.centredaily.com/2011/11/23/2996933/corbett-sidesteps-blame-for-not.html

Pa’s governor and attorney general who knew about Sandusky for at least three years and who did nothing until this year.
Paterno was crucified but this msn did not alert the BOT in anyway . Seems interesting how the politicians are acting now when there are no more scape goats .[/quote]

i don’t get it
the article seems to be criticising him because he didn’t do anything to tip the bad guys off

he had inside information about the investigation because he had been the attorney general beforehand and carried on as normal and did nothing to indicate there was an investigation going on that might have given them an opportunity to get their stories straight or destroy evidence

if he had voiced any concerns to the University board at that point, it would have filtered through an organisation that was already demonstrated to be unable to police itself

that’s what the whole scandal is about
that they had 2 decades to deal with this internally and did not

so why would he let them know they were being investigated by someone independent who was going to straighten it out for good?[/quote]

i think the significant thing is that he continued to transact in multi-million dollar exchanges with the organisations involved and never broke his cover (or did he?)
he took their contributions because they offered them and they would have been suspicious if the former attorney general said ‘your money is too dirty for me’

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
And now the digging has begun…I am sure this sort of thing is VERY common in D1 football, but at a school that prides itself on “winning with honor” all these skeletons are gonna be bad.

Meh. VERY common indeed. It’s no secret that student/athletes at big programs are given more lee-way than their fellow students. Personally, I’m not very troubled by that in principle. Life is not fair. When you enter the workplace and adult life, we are not treated equally. By the time you’re a year into your very first paying job, you will realize that such disparity of treatment is a fact of life.

The problem for me is when the student/athlete conduct crossed the line to criminal conduct. A fight is one thing. Beating people unconscious, breaking in apartments, etc. are other matters altogether. That Joe sought to protect his players makes him no different than many other big name college coaches but it does ring hypocritical and antithetical to his preaching about honor and integrity. That said, his desire to protect players could easily be taken out of context and misrepresented too.

A certain amount of protection for the student/athlete however IS in order. These are still kids by and large. They make mistakes. If student Joe Smith does something stupid, we’re not reading about it and we’re not watching it on ESPN. If student/athlete Joe Smith does something stupid, we are watching it on ESPN and reading about it. College kids are largely ill prepared for such a level of scrutiny and to that extent, I understand a coach wanting to protect his players…up to a point. These athletes are largely Alpha Male kids, with loads of hormones and maybe a history of being coddled. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t treat them this way, but the adults in their lives are to blame, not the kids that were never conditioned for the responsibilities that lie ahead for a high profile college athlete.

We’ll see how everything shakes out. But at this point, this kinda reeks of mud-slinging and piling on by a disgruntled former employee. There are serious allegations of abuse afoot here and what Joe did to protect some players long ago only distracts us from the real issue; getting to the bottom of this scandal and unearthing the culpable parties. running interference for his players is a far cry from running interference for Sandusky so he can abuse little boys.

As far as Joe and football are concerned, at the end of the day (to quote from the article) PSU “players graduated at rates far above average, and it is one of only four major-conference athletic programs never to have been sanctioned for major violations by the sport’s governing body, the NCAA.” That accomplishment deserves some respect and the attached article does little to undermine that. Yeah…football players at PSU get disparate treatment from a regular student. Duh. Tell us something we don’t know?[/quote]

Oh fully agree…but when one takes the highest of high roads (Paterno) and preaches honor and class…you are not allowed to be just like “the rest”

And the disgruntled former employee was one of the highest ranking VP’s on campus, and according to the e-mails…Paterno had her fired. That is kind of smelly to me.[/quote]

Well, to conclude they are “just like the rest” would be to ignore the higher graduation rates and the lack of major NCAA infractions. Their record is clear that they are “not like the rest” no matter how much other programs want mileage off the Sandusky matter. At the end of the day, Sandusky aside, they are not “just like the rest”. Are they perfect? No. I don’t even think that’s possible in the realm of big college athletics. [/quote]

You do realize that quite a few of those that graduated wouldn’t have been allowed to do so if the appropriate disciplinary action had been taken, right?

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You do realize that quite a few of those that graduated wouldn’t have been allowed to do so if the appropriate disciplinary action had been taken, right?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t change the basic analysis. And the same can be said for any university with a major sports program. As I’ve already taken pains to illustrate, most student-athletes receive preferential treatment. It’s a fact.

However, even accounting for the few bad apples that received preferential treatment (and were presumably allowed to graduate - and that is an assumption to start), it’s very unlikely there were large enough numbers of players given a “pass” that still graduated to skew the superior numbers reported by PSU (and remembering, this is truly apples to apples, b/c all major programs engage in favoritism). PSU still rates out much higher than the 69% or so average graduation rate reported by the NCAA.

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110211aaa.html

Keep in mind you have in excess of 85 players on the team and that a few bad apples, no matter what the outcome of any discipline is, are not going to skew the percentage THAT much.

Keep in mind that Paterno is famous for making his athletes go to class and keep grades or face his punishment.

At the end of the day, they were not “like the rest” in terms of graduation rates. 87% is so far superior to 69% (18 percentage points) that it is very unlikely to be explained by some rowdies getting a “free pass”.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You do realize that quite a few of those that graduated wouldn’t have been allowed to do so if the appropriate disciplinary action had been taken, right?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t change the basic analysis. And the same can be said for any university with a major sports program. As I’ve already taken pains to illustrate, most student-athletes receive preferential treatment. It’s a fact.

However, even accounting for the few bad apples that received preferential treatment (and were presumably allowed to graduate - and that is an assumption to start), it’s very unlikely there were large enough numbers of players given a “pass” that still graduated to skew the superior numbers reported by PSU (and remembering, this is truly apples to apples, b/c all major programs engage in favoritism). PSU still rates out much higher than the 69% or so average graduation rate reported by the NCAA.

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110211aaa.html

Keep in mind you have in excess of 85 players on the team and that a few bad apples, no matter what the outcome of any discipline is, are not going to skew the percentage THAT much.

Keep in mind that Paterno is famous for making his athletes go to class and keep grades or face his punishment.

At the end of the day, they were not “like the rest” in terms of graduation rates. 87% is so far superior to 69% (18 percentage points) that it is very unlikely to be explained by some rowdies getting a “free pass”. [/quote]

You didn’t need to go through a “pain staking” process about preferential treatment towards athletes as o had already mentioned it several posts before.

And, I don’t care if Paterno is “famous for making his athletes go to class”. He’s becoming infamous for turning a blind eye to what really matters. Having a skewed stat that reflects kindly on your program to hide what’s really going on is lipstick on a pig. I don’t care how dolled up it is.

people who get too much generally think that people get what they deserve

I know this to be true. when I attended PSU Bob White a memeber of the 1986 MNC team was in class with a friend. He mentioned how he wasn’t very bright and such. Sue Paterno personally tutored him and he made the grades. He wasn’t passed through. He’s now a high ranking executive at PSU in sales of the luxury suites.

Paterno valued education and wanted his players to get the grades and do the work. PSU spent a lot of time on tutors and other means to help student athletes. These guys were made to go to class. I’ve seen individuals get punished for skipping classes. I never was punished btw for the same thing.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

You do realize that quite a few of those that graduated wouldn’t have been allowed to do so if the appropriate disciplinary action had been taken, right?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t change the basic analysis. And the same can be said for any university with a major sports program. As I’ve already taken pains to illustrate, most student-athletes receive preferential treatment. It’s a fact.

However, even accounting for the few bad apples that received preferential treatment (and were presumably allowed to graduate - and that is an assumption to start), it’s very unlikely there were large enough numbers of players given a “pass” that still graduated to skew the superior numbers reported by PSU (and remembering, this is truly apples to apples, b/c all major programs engage in favoritism). PSU still rates out much higher than the 69% or so average graduation rate reported by the NCAA.

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110211aaa.html

Keep in mind you have in excess of 85 players on the team and that a few bad apples, no matter what the outcome of any discipline is, are not going to skew the percentage THAT much.

Keep in mind that Paterno is famous for making his athletes go to class and keep grades or face his punishment.

At the end of the day, they were not “like the rest” in terms of graduation rates. 87% is so far superior to 69% (18 percentage points) that it is very unlikely to be explained by some rowdies getting a “free pass”. [/quote]