WTF Penn State?!?!?!

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281

[quote]BradTGIF wrote:

I think one thing is certain.

No one will ever be able to bear this much singular influence on a University ever again. Because college football is so competitive, rarely do you see a head coach who has been tenured at one school for over a decade, not to mention four. The transgressions of something like this are the ultimate and unfortunate example as to why.

No more “old guard.”

[/quote]

I imagine other schools are now looking closely at their staff - top to bottom. Rightly so.

282

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
If I saw a naked old man in the shower “horsing around” with a naked minor, I’m intervening immediately. [/quote]

define “horsing around”.

283

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
If I saw a naked old man in the shower “horsing around” with a naked minor, I’m intervening immediately. [/quote]

and well then, McQueary should be the target of everyone’s ire. Not Joe Pa.

284

To BG’s point, I am all for due process and learning all the facts, but then again Paterno isn’t being charged with a crime because the current facts or allegations do not support it form a legal sense. Sandusky is charged with many crimes, and the wheels of justice will turn on that case. There is more to be investigated, and the public will likely never know all the seedy details of what goes on inside a major college football program.

Paterno’s situation, and his justifiable firing, is a moral issue and a PR issue, which Penn State absolutely had to respond to. The reality is, Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, and even without knowing ALL the facts, enough is known to make the appropriate decision to shit-can the guy because he definitely had the power to do more but did not do so.

285

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Allegations that Sandusky’s charity was used as a front for a sex trafficking ring.

If true, the surface on this has barely been scratched. [/quote]

If true, that’s even more horrible than I imagined, but I’ve been saying all along that this is WAY bigger than we could possibly imagine and the cover-ups extend way past the university. Like I said last page, I’m not sure we’ll ever know the full truth, but if we even get halfway there what we know now won’t have even scratched the surface. Again, this will be the biggest story in American sports history. All hell is fixing to break loose.[/quote]

I agree with you. This will be made into a movie by the end of it all. Don’t forget that the DA investigating the pederasty years ago disappeared and his hard drives are records were found destroyed.

Given the amount of people who knew about this, from GAs to janitors and people all up the chain, I have a hard time believing that nobody reported this to the proper authorities.

The potential is there for a huge cover up.

286

[quote]Ulty wrote:
To BG’s point, I am all for due process and learning all the facts, but then again Paterno isn’t being charged with a crime because the current facts or allegations do not support it form a legal sense. Sandusky is charged with many crimes, and the wheels of justice will turn on that case. There is more to be investigated, and the public will likely never know all the seedy details of what goes on inside a major college football program.

Paterno’s situation, and his justifiable firing, is a moral issue and a PR issue, which Penn State absolutely had to respond to. The reality is, Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, and even without knowing ALL the facts, enough is known to make the appropriate decision to shit-can the guy because he definitely had the power to do more but did not do so. [/quote]

I have no problem with the firing of Paterno.

I have a huge problem with firing him and not McQueary (who saw it) or Curley (Athletic Director who actually is facing criminal charges). It just reeks of hypocrisy.

287

Think about this for a minute:

Jerry Sandusky was an assistant coach for Penn State for 30 years. (a relatively short time in a coaching career)

He was an assistant coach or defensive coordinator for FOUR undefeated seasons.

He was an assistant coach or defensive coordinator for TWO national championships.

He was an assistant coach or defensive coordinator for 19 bowl winning teams.

He was the “heir apparent” at Penn State to take over when JoePa retired.

and at the age of 55 (prime coaching years… think Belichick) he finds out that JoePa isnt planning on stepping down from Penn State for a while so Sandusky RETIRES??? In the prime of his coaching career, for one of the most storied and successful college program around, he retires? He could easily have gotten a head coaching position with another big time University but he chooses to retire?

That doesnt make sense.

288

[quote]Ulty wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

McQuery and the Janitor witness are more culpable than Paterno in this. Only slightly though. [/quote]
Agreed, due to them being right there, seeing it before their very eyes.

Paterno’s culpability rises not only from the fact that McQueary told him about it, but also given his stature at that university. No one had more power to stop what was going on than Paterno himself, and it is unreasonable to think that he did not know more.

Paterno ran that whole place. He answered to no one. Everyone else who was connected to this was basically an underling to Paterno, even his supposed superiors according to the org chart. Sandusky was at Penn State nearly as long as Paterno himself and was a colleague and friend for decades. These things took place in Paterno’s own locker rooms. Anyone familiar with the power a long-term, successful football coach has at a school like this where the whole system is basically run by the football program also knows that it is not unheard of for the head coach to have influence over more than just football matters, including but not limited to law and order.

Think about most of the scandals, minor or major, in college football over the past few years. How many of them blew up after a cover up involving the head coach was discovered? They cover shit up all the time. Paterno himself came under some criticism a few years back for basically dismissing any concern over a rash of player arrests and incidents of violence.

Not only could Paterno (in addition to others) have called the cops when he first learned what was going on in 2002, but he had the power, moreso than anyone, to follow up, see that something was done about it, put it to an end, whatever. He was not solely responsible for no action being taken, but the buck certainly stopped with Paterno at Penn State, so the responsibility and negligence certainly does lay at his feet.

He could have stopped it. He did not. Victims of abuse continued to suffer. Now PSU suffers. That is why he is gone, and rightfully so.[/quote]

You do realize half the above is pure tripe. Where do we begin:

  1. We do NOT yet know exactly what he was told or what he knew;
  2. Paterno had the “power to stop what was going on”. We haven’t even established what he was told or what he knew, yet he had these powers to stop it, whatever it was, even if he didn’t know about it (he did fucking report what was told him;
  3. It is unreasonable to THINK he didn’t know more (based upon what facts?);
  4. Paterno ran the whole place. This is so laughable it doesn’t deserve a response. He didn’t “run the place”;
  5. He answered to no one. Really? Complete tripe;
  6. His superiors, were actually subordinate to Paterno. LOL smfh. Not;
  7. Years ago, some players got arrested and this is somehow related to the present affair? He was able to magically and all-powerfully cover up molestation, but couldn’t keep his own players out of the law’s reach for comparatively minor transgressions? LOL
  8. He did “call the cops”. Campus police ARE police;
  9. He could have “stopped it” - whether he knew of it or not?

Anyway, don’t fret. You’re the average human in today’s society groomed by a media with no journalistic integrity anymore. Where provocative opinions pass as “journalism” and we “spit ball” the truth without the facts.

When we know the facts, I’ll be the first here to say fuck Joe Pa if he knew what you THINK he knew.

289

[quote]Ulty wrote:
Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, [/quote]

Provide factual evidence of the above. His power over the program may have been absolute, but he answered to people. Heck he was almost forced out years ago.

290

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]BradTGIF wrote:

I think one thing is certain.

No one will ever be able to bear this much singular influence on a University ever again. Because college football is so competitive, rarely do you see a head coach who has been tenured at one school for over a decade, not to mention four. The transgressions of something like this are the ultimate and unfortunate example as to why.

No more “old guard.”

[/quote]

I imagine other schools are now looking closely at their staff - top to bottom. Rightly so.
[/quote]

Hopefully so.

From my own perspective, the football culture of Penn State is similar to my alma mater of Nebraska, where we had a long-time coach (Tom Osborne) with championships on his resume and god-like status in the state. I bet places like Alabama, Florida State, and Ohio State can also relate. We hold these guys up to be so much more than just a football coach. Paterno, Osborne and other coaches preach about doing things with honor and integrity, and in a way, the moral compass of an entire region or state is driven by the old coach.

Scandals happen so often at other schools, and so many coaches have baggage, that some places can look at their own track record and say, “Well, that could never happen here! I’m glad we have a strong leader like Osborne/Paterno/Bowden/whoever in charge!” When bad things do happen, it turns that little insular world upside down. That’s what makes the Penn State story so shocking. And many of the locals maintain their support of Paterno because it is too awful to believe what just happened, after decades of knowing that he was the bastion of integrity.

Here in Nebraska, I and other alums/fans are happy that we have not faced such scandal. But to think that it can never happen here or anywhere else, that notion has been dashed. In the mid 90s, Osborne was lambasted on the national stage for his handling of the Lawrence Phillips situation and incidents of other criminal activity by players. Here in Nebraska, we steadfastly supported him and beleived Osborne did the right thing. He always did the right thing! But in hindsight, things could have and should have been done differently. Bobby Bowden for all of his greatness as a coach and a man, had his number of scandals at Florida State, too. How many other great coaches have been disgraced? Turns out they are just mortal men. Some are actually less than men.

As Brad said above, hopefully we will never ascribe this much power to a coach or a football program again.

291

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Ulty wrote:
Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, [/quote]

Provide factual evidence of the above. His power over the program may have been absolute, but he answered to people. Heck he was almost forced out years ago. [/quote]

A) He’s referring to the grand jury statement and Paterno’s OWN testimony. It is factual evidence.

B) He was told to step down and said “no” and got his way… that’s supposed to prove he didn’t have his way?

292

I was just listening to “The Herd” on ESPN radio and they were saying that back in 2005, starting Penn State Linebacker Dan Connor (Two Time All American and Chuck Bednarik Award Winner for best college football player) was suspended and investigated (along with two other players) for “prank calls” that bordered on harassment…

The calls were made to former coach Jerry Sandusky.

Looks like some players/former players knew about the “rumors” of Sandusky’s actions. WOW.

293

^^^I’m typing from my phone so it’s hard to write everything I’m thinking, but there is so much here that doesn’t add up, or even worse adds up to something so unspeakably horrible that it’s hard to fathom. I said on page 2 I think that we’re gonna be surprised how far down the rabbit hole this goes.

Now, I think that we’re not only on the verge of the biggest story in American sports history, but one of the most shocking stories in American history PERIOD. This will turn that entire region upside down and potentially change the face of the immediate landscape. I’m not sure we’re ready for how big and bad this is gonna turn out to be. Just wait.

294

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I blame the media for this; I find it very disturbing that a bunch of us have the noose and tree picked out for Paterno when we do not yet have all the facts. We have charging documents, which are ALLEGATIONS that have not been challenged yet. We have the benefit of HINDSIGHT and who wouldn’t do something different with the benefit of HINDSIGHT?

But in our society today, you are truly guilty (in the media and then the court of public opinion) until proven innocent. I find it very hard to believe based upon the entirety of Paterno’s body of work that he purposefully turned a blind eye to the affair. If he did, I will make that decision once ALL THE EVIDENCE IS DISCLOSED and decided upon.

A man reporting something up the chain of command the very next day is NOT engaging in any cover-up or sweeping anything under the rug.

Finally, as for the comment that he should have left whatever many years ago; without Paterno PSU is some little college out in Podunk, PA. Paterno made that University and earned the right to leave when he fucking wanted to.

Btw, my “nephew” just signed his LOI to go to PSU next year, to play basketball. [/quote]

You cannot be serious…in the grand jury testimony Paterno said McQueary was “visibly upset” and told him “Sandusky fondled, or touched, or horsed around with a boy in the locker room shower”

Once you hear that you throw McQueary into your car, drive to the police station and tell him to “TELL THEM EVERYTHING YOU SAW!”

You don’t tell the AD and go back to viewing game tape for that Saturday…You are JOE “fucking” PATERNO…you have to save those kids.

He CYA’d himself BARELY legally…but morally, you cannot see Sandusky on CAMPUS with OTHER young boys for YEARS afterward and not hold a large amount of culpability for the abuses that happened after you had a chance to stop it.

He was the captain of the ship, the buck stops with him.[/quote]

there is a wide chasm between “fondled” and “horsed around” in the shower. and we do not yet know the events that occurred thereafter. did they conduct an investigation and clear him?

point is, I’m not defending (or prosecuting) Paterno b/c we don’t know all the facts. we only know the ALLEGATIONS. without ALL the FACTS, how can you pass judgment or determine culpability.

as i said, typical american media. and typical of our current society to want to rip down an icon…for no other reason than he did more than us and we want to see him fail, like “us”.

don’t try to drag me into a debate about “what ifs”. my point is and will remain that there should be no judgment until we know all the facts. we do not have them. [/quote]

BG I agree to a point we tend to Witch hunt with the media. But the chain of events are starting to look very bad for JoePa, also he is not being indicted for anything. He is not on trial so how will it ever be discovered his level of involvement? [/quote]

Here’s the common rookie mistake with this kind of thing. It actually has some relevance to a malpractice claim. These things, like medical care, need to be examined in real time, when they occurred, based on what was known at the time - not with the benefit of looking back and “coulda woulda shoulda”. That’s not how it works. I’m sure you understand this as a medical professional, that’s why I used the analogy. If you could “coulda woulda shoulda” no doctor would ever win a malpractice claim.

My only point is this; we don’t yet have all the facts. We don’t have the timeline and we don’t have full development of exactly what Paterno knew, when he knew it and what was later related to him by the University and/or other authorities and what in turn was related back to him.

I am growing very uncomfortable b/c I don’t want to be perceived as defending anyone when there are children/victims at stake here. That is not my intent. My only point is, and shall remain, that we do not yet know all the facts. It’s way to early to be passing judgment and making statements about “culpability”.

No, he’s not on trial. But by the time this things get fully aired, I think we’ll have a good idea of who knew what, when they knew it and how they responded.

I still find it hard to believe he’d turn a blind eye to it. I do allow that I could be wrong though. What I’m not willing to do is concede that until I know all the facts, and the timeline.
[/quote]

I agree on all your points BG you are playing Devils advocate and trying to look at this from an objective view point without emotion. Honestly when it comes to this topic I tend to have a very, very short fuse and tend to think through emotion.

I personally just feel sad about the whole thing, Football is my favorite past time and sport. I follow it at all levels and the back lash because of the Pedopieceofshit will forever taint a noble university.

This should not be about JoePa or the school or football.

They should parade this fucker naked through the streets and we stone his ass dead, old school testament style.

295

[quote]gregron wrote:
I was just listening to “The Herd” on ESPN radio and they were saying that back in 2005, starting Penn State Linebacker Dan Connor (Two Time All American and Chuck Bednarik Award Winner for best college football player) was suspended and investigated (along with two other players) for “prank calls” that bordered on harassment…

The calls were made to former coach Jerry Sandusky.

Looks like some players/former players knew about the “rumors” of Sandusky’s actions. WOW.[/quote]

Yes I remember that, but that is quite a leap of logic to assume the nature of the calls. It’s very possible but I wouldn’t state it as fact.

296

[quote]scj119 wrote:
I have a huge problem with firing him and not McQueary (who saw it) or Curley (Athletic Director who actually is facing criminal charges). It just reeks of hypocrisy.[/quote]

There is concern that McQueary is afforded certain legal protections if he is deemed a “whistleblower”. I’s sure the Board of Trustees and their legal representation took this into account in deciding who not to fire.

297

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
I was just listening to “The Herd” on ESPN radio and they were saying that back in 2005, starting Penn State Linebacker Dan Connor (Two Time All American and Chuck Bednarik Award Winner for best college football player) was suspended and investigated (along with two other players) for “prank calls” that bordered on harassment…

The calls were made to former coach Jerry Sandusky.

Looks like some players/former players knew about the “rumors” of Sandusky’s actions. WOW.[/quote]

Yes I remember that, but that is quite a leap of logic to assume the nature of the calls. It’s very possible but I wouldn’t state it as fact.[/quote]

I wasnt stating it as a fact… but “prank calls that bordered on harassment” from players to Sandusky??? What else would they be harassing him about? his stepping down from the program 6 years ago? Before any of the suspended players were even at the University?

Doesnt make sense.

298

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Ulty wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

McQuery and the Janitor witness are more culpable than Paterno in this. Only slightly though. [/quote]
Agreed, due to them being right there, seeing it before their very eyes.

Paterno’s culpability rises not only from the fact that McQueary told him about it, but also given his stature at that university. No one had more power to stop what was going on than Paterno himself, and it is unreasonable to think that he did not know more.

Paterno ran that whole place. He answered to no one. Everyone else who was connected to this was basically an underling to Paterno, even his supposed superiors according to the org chart. Sandusky was at Penn State nearly as long as Paterno himself and was a colleague and friend for decades. These things took place in Paterno’s own locker rooms. Anyone familiar with the power a long-term, successful football coach has at a school like this where the whole system is basically run by the football program also knows that it is not unheard of for the head coach to have influence over more than just football matters, including but not limited to law and order.

Think about most of the scandals, minor or major, in college football over the past few years. How many of them blew up after a cover up involving the head coach was discovered? They cover shit up all the time. Paterno himself came under some criticism a few years back for basically dismissing any concern over a rash of player arrests and incidents of violence.

Not only could Paterno (in addition to others) have called the cops when he first learned what was going on in 2002, but he had the power, moreso than anyone, to follow up, see that something was done about it, put it to an end, whatever. He was not solely responsible for no action being taken, but the buck certainly stopped with Paterno at Penn State, so the responsibility and negligence certainly does lay at his feet.

He could have stopped it. He did not. Victims of abuse continued to suffer. Now PSU suffers. That is why he is gone, and rightfully so.[/quote]

You do realize half the above is pure tripe. Where do we begin:

  1. We do NOT yet know exactly what he was told or what he knew;
  2. Paterno had the “power to stop what was going on”. We haven’t even established what he was told or what he knew, yet he had these powers to stop it, whatever it was, even if he didn’t know about it (he did fucking report what was told him;
  3. It is unreasonable to THINK he didn’t know more (based upon what facts?);
  4. Paterno ran the whole place. This is so laughable it doesn’t deserve a response. He didn’t “run the place”;
  5. He answered to no one. Really? Complete tripe;
  6. His superiors, were actually subordinate to Paterno. LOL smfh. Not;
  7. Years ago, some players got arrested and this is somehow related to the present affair? He was able to magically and all-powerfully cover up molestation, but couldn’t keep his own players out of the law’s reach for comparatively minor transgressions? LOL
  8. He did “call the cops”. Campus police ARE police;
  9. He could have “stopped it” - whether he knew of it or not?

Anyway, don’t fret. You’re the average human in today’s society groomed by a media with no journalistic integrity anymore. Where provocative opinions pass as “journalism” and we “spit ball” the truth without the facts.

When we know the facts, I’ll be the first here to say fuck Joe Pa if he knew what you THINK he knew.
[/quote]

Even if you give him the ultimate benefit of the doubt in the past, Sandusky was using the PSU facilities last week. That means Paterno had been interviewed by the grand jury, was aware that at least some claims were being made and still allowed a potential child molester into his locker room. Questionable move at best, don’t you think?

299

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Ulty wrote:
Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, [/quote]

Provide factual evidence of the above. His power over the program may have been absolute, but he answered to people. Heck he was almost forced out years ago. [/quote]

A) He’s referring to the grand jury statement and Paterno’s OWN testimony. It is factual evidence.

B) He was told to step down and said “no” and got his way… that’s supposed to prove he didn’t have his way?[/quote]

I was getting ready to point these things out. I knew back in '04 when they wanted to shove him out the door that he would just say no and Spanier would say “OK, sorry to bother you Mr. Paterno”.

300

[quote]novaeer wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Ulty wrote:
Paterno’s power at Penn State was nearly absolute, [/quote]

Provide factual evidence of the above. His power over the program may have been absolute, but he answered to people. Heck he was almost forced out years ago. [/quote]

A) He’s referring to the grand jury statement and Paterno’s OWN testimony. It is factual evidence.

B) He was told to step down and said “no” and got his way… that’s supposed to prove he didn’t have his way?[/quote]

I was getting ready to point these things out. I knew back in '04 when they wanted to shove him out the door that he would just say no and Spanier would say “OK, sorry to bother you Mr. Paterno”.[/quote]

Or maybe JoePa said Not so Fast, I know about the skeletons in the closet.