Few questions:
How should one progress the jump training in WS4SB?
–Just try to jump onto a higher box each week? jump further? etc?
How often should you rotate the jump movements?
Thanks.
I started another thread on how to rotate exercises in the WS4SB template, so I’m definitely not an authority on this stuff yet. But based on what I’ve learned so far, it seems you would treat your jumps like a ME exercise in that you try to do a little more each time.
I’ve been following a log on elitefts.com and that seems to be how they are training one of their baseball players. Going for a little higher box jump each time, even if it is only by a little bit .
Initially, I plan to rotate three jump variation, doing each for a few weeks: Vertical jumps, box jumps, and broad jumps. With the verticals and broad jumps I think the idea is just to do several sets where you try to jump as high/far as possible. I will probably measure the verticals by jumping up and touching tape or something on the wall. Broad jumps will be something similar but on the floor.
Progressing box jumps might be a little trickier. I have a weight vest and plan to use a combination of height and weight. For example, if I get a 40" box jump on Week 1, I might try for a 40" box jump with 5 or 10 lbs. on Week 2. Then maybe a 44" jump on Week 3. This is all hypothetical but might give you an idea. This is because height in the box jumps will be limited by equipment on hand and I might be forced to make 6" increases in box height, which will probably be too much for a single week of increase.
I’m thinking you’d want to terminate a jump day when you feel like the jump was your best effort or if you start to regress. Suppose that you increase your broad jump on each set for the first four sets. You hit a 8’ broad jump in your 5th set and then 7’9" in your 6th set. I’d say you should do no more and probably should have stopped with the 8’ jump. Again, that is just my impression from all the reading I’ve done so far, but I’m sure others will be able to give you more accurate info.
My gym is nicely equipped with mats that are about a 1/2" thick, so I can progress slower on box jumps if needed.
Thanks for the help! I read through your other thread already, but that this answers my questions.
What does everyone think of this for ME rotations:
upper:
floor press
O/H press
rack lock outs
bench
Lower:
Box squat (off 12.5" box, I’m 6’2" this puts me right below parallel
rack pull
Front Squat
Deadlift
I like your max-effort rotations.
Here is a suggestion for jumping exercises. I do not exactly use the WS4SB template but utilize a similar training philosophy with my own training and those of the athletes I work with. What we do is go in 3-week cycles of using the same exercise but wave up the intensity by using a weighted vest. For example for a 150lb kid doing box jumps:
Week 1- 12 x 3 unweighted
Week 2- 10 x 3 w/ 15lb in the vest
Week 3- 8 x 3 w/ 30lb in the vest
Sets and reps might be different than that but that’s the basic idea. On the fourth week we would switch to a different jump variation and start with unweighted. This enables you to work up to a best effort every session and by the time you get back to the original exercise you can hit a new record.
The jump variations we’ve used are:
Box jump
Box jump standing on a foam pad
Box squat box jump (squat down on box and then jump)
Soft box squat box jump (squat down on foam pad and then jump)
Hurdle hops into box jump (jump back and forth over a low hurdle 4x and then jump up)
Depth box jump (step off a low box and then jump up)
Broad jump
Hurdle hop into broad jump
Depth drop into broad jump
With the reactive drils (hurdle hops and depth jumps) instead of using a vest I would step the height of the box/hurdle up over 3-weeks.
With a beginner athlete, I will stay on the basics as long as they can still keep hitting records. For example with my 9th graders this summer I’ll likely just go:
Weeks 1-3: Broad jumps
Weeks 4-6: Box jumps
Weeks 7-9: Broad jumps
Weeks 10-12: Box jumps
Whereas with a couple of my more advanced kids I won’t repeat an exercises for 3-4 cycles. I know for myself I try to go at least 16 weeks before redoing an exercise so I can hit a PR on it, although usually I get goaded into trying to get it before that on a whim.
I’ve hit a 56" box jump using these methods so they don’t work too bad!
Thanks jtrinskey!
I don’t have a weighted vest, so I may have to invest in one of those in the near future. I’m a newb to jump training, so I’ll probably just stick with alternating broad jumps and box jumps for now.
Speaking of broad jumps:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I like your max-effort rotations.
Here is a suggestion for jumping exercises. I do not exactly use the WS4SB template but utilize a similar training philosophy with my own training and those of the athletes I work with. What we do is go in 3-week cycles of using the same exercise but wave up the intensity by using a weighted vest. For example for a 150lb kid doing box jumps:
Week 1- 12 x 3 unweighted
Week 2- 10 x 3 w/ 15lb in the vest
Week 3- 8 x 3 w/ 30lb in the vest
Sets and reps might be different than that but that’s the basic idea. On the fourth week we would switch to a different jump variation and start with unweighted. This enables you to work up to a best effort every session and by the time you get back to the original exercise you can hit a new record.
The jump variations we’ve used are:
Box jump
Box jump standing on a foam pad
Box squat box jump (squat down on box and then jump)
Soft box squat box jump (squat down on foam pad and then jump)
Hurdle hops into box jump (jump back and forth over a low hurdle 4x and then jump up)
Depth box jump (step off a low box and then jump up)
Broad jump
Hurdle hop into broad jump
Depth drop into broad jump
With the reactive drils (hurdle hops and depth jumps) instead of using a vest I would step the height of the box/hurdle up over 3-weeks.
With a beginner athlete, I will stay on the basics as long as they can still keep hitting records. For example with my 9th graders this summer I’ll likely just go:
Weeks 1-3: Broad jumps
Weeks 4-6: Box jumps
Weeks 7-9: Broad jumps
Weeks 10-12: Box jumps
Whereas with a couple of my more advanced kids I won’t repeat an exercises for 3-4 cycles. I know for myself I try to go at least 16 weeks before redoing an exercise so I can hit a PR on it, although usually I get goaded into trying to get it before that on a whim.
I’ve hit a 56" box jump using these methods so they don’t work too bad!
[/quote]
Really good post, jtrinsey. Very good ideas in here.
Thanks. You can just hold dumbbells for added resistance if you don’t have a vest. You can also just alternate the unweighted drills. Theres a hundred different methods to it. I like the 3-week wave because it correlates with the three-week waves we do with lifting and it seems to work well.
WS4SBIII has a DE lower day.
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
WS4SBIII has a DE lower day.[/quote]
Thanks?
It includes jump training in the DE lower day.
According to louie Simmons:
westside-barbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/
Articles%202008/SPECIAL_STRENGTH_jan_2008.pdf
Explosive strength is also referred to as explosive power and is the ability to rapidly increase force (Tidow, 1990). It is best developed through jumping, bounding, and other forms of plyometrics, not Olympic lifts. To be the fastest would require no resistance.
For jumping, one must use a rotational system: vertical jumping, jumping from the knees, jumping from the knees with weight on your back, power snatch on the knees, power snatch while seated, power snatch into a split stance.
We have had enormous success with football 40-yard times from jumping with dumbbells of different weights and onto different box heights, jumping with ankle weights up to 20 pounds on each leg, a combination of jumping with dumbbells and ankle weights, and jumping onto a box while standing on a foam pad. It is to be noted that many don�??t know how to jump or land. Here we do a series of jumps up to a box and down and up to a second, and possibly a third.
Jumping is not as simple as it looks. For general explosive strength, jump down and onto an even higher box. For the development of concentric strength, we jump down from a low box to a much higher box. Eccentric development is best gained by jumping down from a high box and rebounding up to a low box. The optimal box height depends on general fitness.
Jumping with resistance does not disturb jumping form, but running with resistance will. You need to know these basic concepts. Much information can be found on this subject in the book Explosive Power and Jumping Ability for all Sports (Starzynski and Sozanski).
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
According to louie Simmons:
westside-barbell.com/Articles%20Top%20Ten/
Articles%202008/SPECIAL_STRENGTH_jan_2008.pdf
Explosive strength is also referred to as explosive power and is the ability to rapidly increase force (Tidow, 1990). It is best developed through jumping, bounding, and other forms of plyometrics, not Olympic lifts. To be the fastest would require no resistance.
For jumping, one must use a rotational system: vertical jumping, jumping from the knees, jumping from the knees with weight on your back, power snatch on the knees, power snatch while seated, power snatch into a split stance.
We have had enormous success with football 40-yard times from jumping with dumbbells of different weights and onto different box heights, jumping with ankle weights up to 20 pounds on each leg, a combination of jumping with dumbbells and ankle weights, and jumping onto a box while standing on a foam pad. It is to be noted that many don�??t know how to jump or land. Here we do a series of jumps up to a box and down and up to a second, and possibly a third.
Jumping is not as simple as it looks. For general explosive strength, jump down and onto an even higher box. For the development of concentric strength, we jump down from a low box to a much higher box. Eccentric development is best gained by jumping down from a high box and rebounding up to a low box. The optimal box height depends on general fitness.
Jumping with resistance does not disturb jumping form, but running with resistance will. You need to know these basic concepts. Much information can be found on this subject in the book Explosive Power and Jumping Ability for all Sports (Starzynski and Sozanski).
[/quote]
Good post, Xen.
My gym doesn’t have any plyo boxes, but I’d really like to incorporate some jumping into my training. any ideas?
[quote]wangster wrote:
My gym doesn’t have any plyo boxes, but I’d really like to incorporate some jumping into my training. any ideas?[/quote]
Just replace box jumps with broad jumps and you can do pretty much all the same variations:
Broad jump
Broad jump standing on a foam pad
Depth drop into broad jump
Hurdle hops into broad jump
Mix those in with some regular vertical leaps or hurdle hops. You can also add low resistance (15-20 pounds) or heavy resistance (30-40 pounds) and now you have all the jump variations you need. You also have simple, less-taxing variations (broad jump and vertical leap) and complex, taxing variations such as depth broad jumps.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
wangster wrote:
My gym doesn’t have any plyo boxes, but I’d really like to incorporate some jumping into my training. any ideas?
Just replace box jumps with broad jumps and you can do pretty much all the same variations:
Broad jump
Broad jump standing on a foam pad
Depth drop into broad jump
Hurdle hops into broad jump
Mix those in with some regular vertical leaps or hurdle hops. You can also add low resistance (15-20 pounds) or heavy resistance (30-40 pounds) and now you have all the jump variations you need. You also have simple, less-taxing variations (broad jump and vertical leap) and complex, taxing variations such as depth broad jumps.
[/quote]
Wow! Thanks a lot, also can I use a medicine ball for the weighted jumps instead of weighted vests because I don’t have access to them?
Yeah or just hold some dumbbells. You can use whatever you want just make up variations.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I like your max-effort rotations.
Here is a suggestion for jumping exercises. I do not exactly use the WS4SB template but utilize a similar training philosophy with my own training and those of the athletes I work with. What we do is go in 3-week cycles of using the same exercise but wave up the intensity by using a weighted vest. For example for a 150lb kid doing box jumps:
Week 1- 12 x 3 unweighted
Week 2- 10 x 3 w/ 15lb in the vest
Week 3- 8 x 3 w/ 30lb in the vest
[/quote]
If you were doing 12 sets of 3 on box jumps how would the box height you use compare to your PR. I imagine it would have to be significantly lower than your PR for you to be able do a total of 36 reps in a session.
Do you generally only have your athletes doing jumping exercises once per week or do you have them do multiple sessions per week.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I like your max-effort rotations.
Here is a suggestion for jumping exercises. I do not exactly use the WS4SB template but utilize a similar training philosophy with my own training and those of the athletes I work with. What we do is go in 3-week cycles of using the same exercise but wave up the intensity by using a weighted vest. For example for a 150lb kid doing box jumps:
Week 1- 12 x 3 unweighted
Week 2- 10 x 3 w/ 15lb in the vest
Week 3- 8 x 3 w/ 30lb in the vest
If you were doing 12 sets of 3 on box jumps how would the box height you use compare to your PR. I imagine it would have to be significantly lower than your PR for you to be able do a total of 36 reps in a session.
Do you generally only have your athletes doing jumping exercises once per week or do you have them do multiple sessions per week.
[/quote]
I’ll do something like 12 sets of 3 but generally increase as the sets go on. I wouldn’t call it “working up to” a max but almost like that. For example, I’ve done a 56" box jump before so I might do something like:
1st set: 40"
2nd set: 44"
3rd set: 46"
4th set: 48"
and at this point start seeing how I feel. I might keep the rest of the sets at 50" or so or maybe if I’m feeling good I keep going up. Every once in a while I’ll go until I can’t hit 3 jumps in a set and then just do as many singles as I feel like it just going up and up and trying to hit a PR. Same thing with a more advanced kid. This should be done by feel though, speed-strength really fluctuates so I don’t think you ever go into a session thinking, “I’m going for a jump PR today.”
You just go through your warmup and if you’re just bouncing off the walls and feeling fresh and super-motivated then you go for it. It’s a pretty rare thing. With a less advanced kid they would pretty much just stick to the plan and go up to whatever they can land with perfect form and stay there.
So to try to answer your question, yes it is a bit below the PR but usually pretty close to 90% on at least a couple of the sets. I would say my philosophy for the jumping exercises is more a copy of the Louie Simmons max-effort work (a large variety of special exercises, changing frequently) than dynamic work, although I do like the 3-week cycles, waving up intensity.
Generally I go once per week with the directed jumping exercises as part of the main session. But low-intensity jumping and “frequency” drills are a part of every warmup.
Thanks for clarifying.
Just from the perspective of motivation levels, I much prefer the idea of varying the height for at least some of the sets rather that doing a large number of sets at a constant height.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Thanks for clarifying.
Just from the perspective of motivation levels, I much prefer the idea of varying the height for at least some of the sets rather that doing a large number of sets at a constant height.[/quote]
Same. Realistically there’s probably about the same training response from doing sets at 50, 51 and 52", for example, as there is from doing 3 sets at 51", but you get that sense of progress with the first one.
Motivation and confidence in your program are way more important than the actual program, IMO.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Thanks for clarifying.
Just from the perspective of motivation levels, I much prefer the idea of varying the height for at least some of the sets rather that doing a large number of sets at a constant height.
Same. Realistically there’s probably about the same training response from doing sets at 50, 51 and 52", for example, as there is from doing 3 sets at 51", but you get that sense of progress with the first one.
Motivation and confidence in your program are way more important than the actual program, IMO.
[/quote]
I definitely feel more comfy training at single height for all sets, doing a height that is a good challenge by the last set.
So, another question:
If I go into DE lower day this week, and do box jumps holding 7.5lbs in each hand, how many set/reps do I do?
I did 8x3 jumps onto a 29" box (goes to hide in the corner) pretty easily last week, and I’m still figuring out this height of box thing. Do I try to hit 8x3 again holding 15lbs at the same height? Or do I reduce the total sets? Go by how I feel? I’ve never jumped with weight before.
Thanks.