Wrestling or Judo for Law enforcement

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
If you can find a BJJ school that still teaches the self-defense aspects then that would be best. If you find yourself grappling and/or fighting with a suspect then something has gone wrong and you want to learn how to be prepared for the possibility you might get the worst of it. Wrestling is great but what if you are on your back or he is on yours? Judo is great but how good is it when you are the one being tossed around?

The thing with BJJ is that the first things you learn are how to survive and get out of bad positions and when you spar you will find yourself in those positions often. And whatever you do, you better be thinking about weapons retention because it’s a lot easier than some think for someone to get your gun. There is actual video from prisons where convicts are teaching other convicts how to disarm cops. [/quote]

Not necessarily disagreeing that an old school BJJ school would be a bad choice, but in regards to the usefulness of Judo “if you’re the one being tossed around”…

I actually think Judo would be very good for such situations because:

  1. You likely will have been thrown around a lot while doing Randori (much more than most BJJ schools) and thus will be fairly comfortable adjusting to the throw or at least be pretty good at falling without being injured in the process (which is the immediate and honestly most dangerous part of being thrown to the ground is landing wrong and being seriously injured or even killed from the fall itself).

  2. Unless you are dealing with a monster, it’s unlikely that your average thug is going to be tossing around a good Judoka and even if they could, you would know how to use their energy against them

So you would probably be better off with Judo than BJJ in that case. If/once it hit the ground and you found yourself on your back, then BJJ would probably be better though.

[/quote]
I would agree but I am making the assumption that we aren’t talking about a good Judoka. Obviously people begin whatever martial art at different sizes, physical abilities and experience with being physical so what a given individual should do will vary. If I were to take a general position it would be that before someone learns how to be offensive and dominate an opponent they should learn how to survive first. [/quote]

I was only replying to that specific statement that you made, not the general message of your post, which I took to be “to not always assume that you are going to be the one dictating where or when the fight happens, nor will you always be in the dominant position, so you’d better be ready for the worst case scenario as well as the best case scenario”; which I completely agree with.

22

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
As much as I enjoy Judo, I find myself having a strong inclination to go for single and double leg takedowns which has not been covered in Judo. The submission and grip skills gained from Judo are great. Maybe I should take both wrestling and Judo? I like the leg takedowns and control game covered in wrestling.
[/quote]

There are single and double leg takedowns in judo. They aren’t currently allowed in tournaments (not IJF or USJF tournaments anyway) but they are traditional techniques and your instructors will know them.

The problem here is that both judo and wrestling are sports with rules and all the instruction you receive will likely be most relevant to how to score points within those rules, so no matter what there will be some disconnect from reality, as opposed to some BJJ schools that thoroughly discuss strategies for real combat. No harm in learning wrestling, judo, and any other grappling style all at once, you just might progress slower[/quote]

This is definitely true, although, at least in my neck of the woods, most BJJ schools are soley focused on the sport of BJJ/submission grappling and don’t really address self defense (or if they do, it’s not very well addressed). All three arts have their roots in actual combat but have become primarily focused on their sportive incarnations, at least from a generalized perspective, I realize there are exceptions to that rule and my BJJ mentor/instructor is actually one such exception. From what I understand, this is not necessarily as much the case in Brazil. I know that when my instructor first started learning in Brazil there was BJJ that was focused on sport BJJ, BJJ for Vale Tudo, and BJJ for self defense.

23

Also, wear ALL of your gear and try out some techniques on a friend. You’ll discover your limitations and advantages pretty quick.

24

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
If you can find a BJJ school that still teaches the self-defense aspects then that would be best. If you find yourself grappling and/or fighting with a suspect then something has gone wrong and you want to learn how to be prepared for the possibility you might get the worst of it. Wrestling is great but what if you are on your back or he is on yours? Judo is great but how good is it when you are the one being tossed around?

The thing with BJJ is that the first things you learn are how to survive and get out of bad positions and when you spar you will find yourself in those positions often. And whatever you do, you better be thinking about weapons retention because it’s a lot easier than some think for someone to get your gun. There is actual video from prisons where convicts are teaching other convicts how to disarm cops. [/quote]

Not necessarily disagreeing that an old school BJJ school would be a bad choice, but in regards to the usefulness of Judo “if you’re the one being tossed around”…

I actually think Judo would be very good for such situations because:

  1. You likely will have been thrown around a lot while doing Randori (much more than most BJJ schools) and thus will be fairly comfortable adjusting to the throw or at least be pretty good at falling without being injured in the process (which is the immediate and honestly most dangerous part of being thrown to the ground is landing wrong and being seriously injured or even killed from the fall itself).

  2. Unless you are dealing with a monster, it’s unlikely that your average thug is going to be tossing around a good Judoka and even if they could, you would know how to use their energy against them

So you would probably be better off with Judo than BJJ in that case. If/once it hit the ground and you found yourself on your back, then BJJ would probably be better though.

[/quote]
I would agree but I am making the assumption that we aren’t talking about a good Judoka. Obviously people begin whatever martial art at different sizes, physical abilities and experience with being physical so what a given individual should do will vary. If I were to take a general position it would be that before someone learns how to be offensive and dominate an opponent they should learn how to survive first. [/quote]

I was only replying to that specific statement that you made, not the general message of your post, which I took to be “to not always assume that you are going to be the one dictating where or when the fight happens, nor will you always be in the dominant position, so you’d better be ready for the worst case scenario as well as the best case scenario”; which I completely agree with.
[/quote]
When it comes to self-defense questions, the less information I have the more general my answer will be. Now, if a 100 pound woman were to ask me what I think it would be different than what I would tell a 250 pound man.

25

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
This is definitely true, although, at least in my neck of the woods, most BJJ schools are soley focused on the sport of BJJ/submission grappling and don’t really address self defense (or if they do, it’s not very well addressed). All three arts have their roots in actual combat but have become primarily focused on their sportive incarnations, at least from a generalized perspective, I realize there are exceptions to that rule and my BJJ mentor/instructor is actually one such exception. From what I understand, this is not necessarily as much the case in Brazil. I know that when my instructor first started learning in Brazil there was BJJ that was focused on sport BJJ, BJJ for Vale Tudo, and BJJ for self defense.[/quote]
This is off topic but mma has hurt BJJ when it comes to self-defense. People seem to have the idea that the UFC is reality so training for it prepares you for reality.

26

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
This is definitely true, although, at least in my neck of the woods, most BJJ schools are soley focused on the sport of BJJ/submission grappling and don’t really address self defense (or if they do, it’s not very well addressed). All three arts have their roots in actual combat but have become primarily focused on their sportive incarnations, at least from a generalized perspective, I realize there are exceptions to that rule and my BJJ mentor/instructor is actually one such exception. From what I understand, this is not necessarily as much the case in Brazil. I know that when my instructor first started learning in Brazil there was BJJ that was focused on sport BJJ, BJJ for Vale Tudo, and BJJ for self defense.[/quote]
This is off topic but mma has hurt BJJ when it comes to self-defense. People seem to have the idea that the UFC is reality so training for it prepares you for reality. [/quote]

I hear you, but on the other hand the UFC is the primary reason why BJJ as a Martial Art has gained world wide recognition and is known to the general public.

27

Respectfly, I’m going to disagree with the BJJ recommendation, or at least part of the reasoning that has been expressed to promote it here.

First, I DO think BJJ has value as a self defense art. However, to even imply that it is somehow more of a combative art by its very nature than judo or wrestling is nonsense. Virtually every culture since the dawn of time has come up with a form of grappling for self defense. That being said, every one of those arts has to get watered down, to some extent, so that people can safely practice that art. Thus, competitions are born, so that people can challenge themselves without the risk of permanent injury or death.

Now, I read one or two of you stating that BJJ is more “self-defense” based, and recommending it for police work. I disagree. BJJ has, in many places, lost its way. Just as an example, I was attempting to discuss neck cranks with a friend of mine who trains BJJ at a very “big name” location here in our city. I couldn’t even finish my sentence before he interrupted and said, “Oh…we don’t train those…they’re illegal in competition.” I could give other examples, but you get the point. BJJ has become just as competition oriented as other arts, I dare say MORE SO than others, and it’s true utility as a self defense art is becoming lost.

Further, much of the BJJ training I have done (and this is in the police world, mind you) has emphasized “never go to the ground unless you have to, and even then, escape and get back up as soon as possible”. And this is GREAT advice. However, in every case, we have then spent DAYS learning how to fight from the ground and submit people there!! The truth of the matter is that BJJ is a ground based art. There is nothing wrong with that. But teaching people to intentionally go to the ground and do something like pulling guard as a form of self defense is not okay for the street. And it is DEFINITELY not ok for police officers. And for the record, yes, I have trained in full gear, in a parking lot, doing the Gracie Survival Tactics program curriculum. There is too much emphasis in most BJJ programs on working from the various guard positions. The guard is GREAT for competition. It SUCKS for the street. I’m sure most people can understand why without me explaining it.

The difference in a judoka or wrestler is in the mindset. A judoka is going to use the ground as a weapon, because he’s going to slam hi opponent into it…same thing with a wrestler. I may not do it to my partner in the gym, but I know darn good and well that if I throw a full speed, blast double leg takedown on the street, my opponent is going to feel it. In BJJ, it seems that the mentality is to use the ground as a tool, and as a desired place to be.

Also, I need to add this in. Police work is not always purely defensive. There are times when you are going to have to forcibly take someone down. I have not been taught a whole lot of BJJ takedowns, and the ones I have seen were not very good. Again…I’m sure they are great for the mat…not so much for the sidewalk. The judo tosses and wrestling takedowns I have learned are better. Both also have good stand up grappling techniques, which are necessary. (Judo more so than wrestling.)

I really don’t know how much LE experience some of the BJJ proponents have. I try not to comment on a whole lot of things, especially when they are too far “out of my lane”. But, this area IS my lane, and I hope my comments will be taken as what works best for my field, and not as a slam on BJJ. I just disagree that it is the “best” art for LE.

28

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
BJJ[/quote]

I mostly agree with this. I dabbled in BJJ for a while, but my instructor was a cop in one of the shittiest cities in the US, so he was very much street oriented.

I think you can take a few things from BJJ and apply them to LE. Obviously going to the ground is a terrible idea in a street fight, but if you end up there it’s nice to know a thing or two about ground work. I think BJJ is great for gaining a superior position while on the ground, learning how to get back to your feet, and controlling a grounded suspect. It’s ridiculous how many people have NO idea what they are doing when things go to the ground. Usually the first guy to get a good position wins the fight.

I may be wrong, or my experience with BJJ was way out of the norm, but I thought it was helpful(not the greatest) for the reasons I mentioned.

29

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Respectfly, I’m going to disagree with the BJJ recommendation, or at least part of the reasoning that has been expressed to promote it here.

First, I DO think BJJ has value as a self defense art. However, to even imply that it is somehow more of a combative art by its very nature than judo or wrestling is nonsense. Virtually every culture since the dawn of time has come up with a form of grappling for self defense. That being said, every one of those arts has to get watered down, to some extent, so that people can safely practice that art. Thus, competitions are born, so that people can challenge themselves without the risk of permanent injury or death.

Now, I read one or two of you stating that BJJ is more “self-defense” based, and recommending it for police work. I disagree. BJJ has, in many places, lost its way. Just as an example, I was attempting to discuss neck cranks with a friend of mine who trains BJJ at a very “big name” location here in our city. I couldn’t even finish my sentence before he interrupted and said, “Oh…we don’t train those…they’re illegal in competition.” I could give other examples, but you get the point. BJJ has become just as competition oriented as other arts, I dare say MORE SO than others, and it’s true utility as a self defense art is becoming lost.

Further, much of the BJJ training I have done (and this is in the police world, mind you) has emphasized “never go to the ground unless you have to, and even then, escape and get back up as soon as possible”. And this is GREAT advice. However, in every case, we have then spent DAYS learning how to fight from the ground and submit people there!! The truth of the matter is that BJJ is a ground based art. There is nothing wrong with that. But teaching people to intentionally go to the ground and do something like pulling guard as a form of self defense is not okay for the street. And it is DEFINITELY not ok for police officers. And for the record, yes, I have trained in full gear, in a parking lot, doing the Gracie Survival Tactics program curriculum. There is too much emphasis in most BJJ programs on working from the various guard positions. The guard is GREAT for competition. It SUCKS for the street. I’m sure most people can understand why without me explaining it.

The difference in a judoka or wrestler is in the mindset. A judoka is going to use the ground as a weapon, because he’s going to slam hi opponent into it…same thing with a wrestler. I may not do it to my partner in the gym, but I know darn good and well that if I throw a full speed, blast double leg takedown on the street, my opponent is going to feel it. In BJJ, it seems that the mentality is to use the ground as a tool, and as a desired place to be.

Also, I need to add this in. Police work is not always purely defensive. There are times when you are going to have to forcibly take someone down. I have not been taught a whole lot of BJJ takedowns, and the ones I have seen were not very good. Again…I’m sure they are great for the mat…not so much for the sidewalk. The judo tosses and wrestling takedowns I have learned are better. Both also have good stand up grappling techniques, which are necessary. (Judo more so than wrestling.)

I really don’t know how much LE experience some of the BJJ proponents have. I try not to comment on a whole lot of things, especially when they are too far “out of my lane”. But, this area IS my lane, and I hope my comments will be taken as what works best for my field, and not as a slam on BJJ. I just disagree that it is the “best” art for LE.[/quote]

I agree with much of what you said (especially about your negative experiences in regards to BJJ schools avoiding certain techniques because they are not allowed in competitions) and putting too much emphasis on the guard (especially fancy types of guards like 50/50).

Like you said though, there are skills in BJJ that can be useful for self defense or LEO’s, you just need to appropriate it to your chosen arena. I agree though that it is not the end all for such purposes.

30

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Respectfly, I’m going to disagree with the BJJ recommendation, or at least part of the reasoning that has been expressed to promote it here.

First, I DO think BJJ has value as a self defense art. However, to even imply that it is somehow more of a combative art by its very nature than judo or wrestling is nonsense. Virtually every culture since the dawn of time has come up with a form of grappling for self defense. That being said, every one of those arts has to get watered down, to some extent, so that people can safely practice that art. Thus, competitions are born, so that people can challenge themselves without the risk of permanent injury or death.

Now, I read one or two of you stating that BJJ is more “self-defense” based, and recommending it for police work. I disagree. BJJ has, in many places, lost its way. Just as an example, I was attempting to discuss neck cranks with a friend of mine who trains BJJ at a very “big name” location here in our city. I couldn’t even finish my sentence before he interrupted and said, “Oh…we don’t train those…they’re illegal in competition.” I could give other examples, but you get the point. BJJ has become just as competition oriented as other arts, I dare say MORE SO than others, and it’s true utility as a self defense art is becoming lost.

Further, much of the BJJ training I have done (and this is in the police world, mind you) has emphasized “never go to the ground unless you have to, and even then, escape and get back up as soon as possible”. And this is GREAT advice. However, in every case, we have then spent DAYS learning how to fight from the ground and submit people there!! The truth of the matter is that BJJ is a ground based art. There is nothing wrong with that. But teaching people to intentionally go to the ground and do something like pulling guard as a form of self defense is not okay for the street. And it is DEFINITELY not ok for police officers. And for the record, yes, I have trained in full gear, in a parking lot, doing the Gracie Survival Tactics program curriculum. There is too much emphasis in most BJJ programs on working from the various guard positions. The guard is GREAT for competition. It SUCKS for the street. I’m sure most people can understand why without me explaining it.

The difference in a judoka or wrestler is in the mindset. A judoka is going to use the ground as a weapon, because he’s going to slam hi opponent into it…same thing with a wrestler. I may not do it to my partner in the gym, but I know darn good and well that if I throw a full speed, blast double leg takedown on the street, my opponent is going to feel it. In BJJ, it seems that the mentality is to use the ground as a tool, and as a desired place to be.

Also, I need to add this in. Police work is not always purely defensive. There are times when you are going to have to forcibly take someone down. I have not been taught a whole lot of BJJ takedowns, and the ones I have seen were not very good. Again…I’m sure they are great for the mat…not so much for the sidewalk. The judo tosses and wrestling takedowns I have learned are better. Both also have good stand up grappling techniques, which are necessary. (Judo more so than wrestling.)

I really don’t know how much LE experience some of the BJJ proponents have. I try not to comment on a whole lot of things, especially when they are too far “out of my lane”. But, this area IS my lane, and I hope my comments will be taken as what works best for my field, and not as a slam on BJJ. I just disagree that it is the “best” art for LE.[/quote]
What you have to consider is that not every cop is athletic, strong, manly, etc. Judo and wrestling require more physicality than BJJ. Whether we like it or not there are cops who are weak. There are female cops. There are midget cops. We are not talking about wrestlers or Judoka but regular people. Training wrestling does not make one a wrestler. When it comes to unarmed defense in regard to cops (or the general public even) I don’t think self-defense but survival. If a cop is fighting someone then things are bad and there better be a defense based on survival first he/she can fall back on. The guard is practiced a lot because the worst case scenarios need to be addressed.

And a cop probably should refrain from neck cranking someone. Roy Harris had to testify at a trial in which a cop was being sued by another cop’s family because he broke his neck while practicing neck cranks. BTW, you are more likely to learn neck cranks in a BJJ school than at wrestling practice or in Judo.

31

I don’t know that I would necessarily agree with that Zecarlo.

First, Jigoro Kano was far from a physically imposing man and as such one of his primary concepts for Judo was “maximal efficiency with minimal effort”. The term Judo actually means “the gentle way” to emphasize that the ultimate goal is to not utilize force on force. Yes, the Olympic/competitive sport of Judo requires athleticism and physicality to compete at the highest level, but the same could easily be said of the sport of BJJ as well.

You also have examples of proponents from both arts who have appropriated the arts to their individual strengths and weaknesses and range from being very physical and power based (Ralph Gracie and Rhadi Ferguson come to mind) to others who are/were all about timing and yielding with energy (Kyuzo Mifune and Helio Gracie come to mind).

Even among wrestling (which I will admit is more physically based at it’s core conceptual level) you have wrestlers who are all about physically over powering their opponents (Alexander Karelin would probable be the ultimate example) and yet others who are much more about utilizing timing, misdirection, or utilizing their opponent’s force against them due to not being the greatest physical specimens (Dave Schultz comes to mind).

I do agree that learning to survive a worst case scenario is very important though and do agree that wrestling and modern sport oriented Judo do not really address this very well (if at all). But most BJJ schools do not really either IME (at least here in the states) as they are primarily concerned with the sportive side of the art, or even of they do address it, the techniques and tactics leave something to be desired.

32

Judo. I think it applies more directly to being a cop than either BJJ or wrestling, although elements of both could be used in theory to handcuff/restrain someone.

33

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Judo. I think it applies more directly to being a cop than either BJJ or wrestling, although elements of both could be used in theory to handcuff/restrain someone.[/quote]

Yeah, in all honesty any combative training that has you working against resisting opponents on a regular basis is probably going to only be helpful (provided you have a good enough head on your shoulders to not try to apply something out of context).

34

Zecarlo,

While I appreciate your enthusiasm for your art, you are effectively contradicting yourself. Firstly, just because a person studies BJJ, this does not make them an expert in hand to hand combat or “survival”. I have seen more than one person who does BJJ get his ass stomped because he couldn’t get out of the BJJ mindset. Just as practicing wrestling does not make one a wrestler, neither does practicing BJJ make you an expert in its application.

Further…how do you sit there in one breath talking “survival” and then say police officers shouldn’t practice neck cranks?? Are they surviving, or not? Because one guy broke another guy’s neck, they shouldn’t be practiced??? By your own (incorrect) words, if an officer is fighting, things have gone bad, and he should be trying to survive. So, we should rule out neck cranks, wrist locks, etc because why?? Cos we should go for a Kimura or an armbar instead? Please…it’s survival, or it isn’t.

And as I stated, NOT all police incidents of going hands on are about defending yourself. Sometimes, it’s offensive, like taking down a bad guy. What do you recommend…that I jump in the air and pull guard on him? Or do a standing, inverted armbar?

And really? I’m going to learn more about neck cranks at a BJJ school? What do you base that on? Do you have some kind of statistics on that? Cos I’ve learned plenty of them in my wrestling classes. I’m not taking it so I can go wrestle in the Masters Division at the next FILA event. I’m taking it to learn how to survive. Your view of other arts is clearly skewed. Whether that’s based on personal experience or not, I have no idea. You clearly love BJJ, and that’s great. I’m glad you do. But I’m starting to wonder if you are one of those guys who still thinks it’s the “ultimate” martial art, or that it’s “undefeatable” like the Gracie’s used to claim…and it is neither.

35

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Zecarlo,

While I appreciate your enthusiasm for your art, you are effectively contradicting yourself. Firstly, just because a person studies BJJ, this does not make them an expert in hand to hand combat or “survival”. I have seen more than one person who does BJJ get his ass stomped because he couldn’t get out of the BJJ mindset. Just as practicing wrestling does not make one a wrestler, neither does practicing BJJ make you an expert in its application.

Further…how do you sit there in one breath talking “survival” and then say police officers shouldn’t practice neck cranks?? Are they surviving, or not? Because one guy broke another guy’s neck, they shouldn’t be practiced??? By your own (incorrect) words, if an officer is fighting, things have gone bad, and he should be trying to survive. So, we should rule out neck cranks, wrist locks, etc because why?? Cos we should go for a Kimura or an armbar instead? Please…it’s survival, or it isn’t.

And as I stated, NOT all police incidents of going hands on are about defending yourself. Sometimes, it’s offensive, like taking down a bad guy. What do you recommend…that I jump in the air and pull guard on him? Or do a standing, inverted armbar?

And really? I’m going to learn more about neck cranks at a BJJ school? What do you base that on? Do you have some kind of statistics on that? Cos I’ve learned plenty of them in my wrestling classes. I’m not taking it so I can go wrestle in the Masters Division at the next FILA event. I’m taking it to learn how to survive. Your view of other arts is clearly skewed. Whether that’s based on personal experience or not, I have no idea. You clearly love BJJ, and that’s great. I’m glad you do. But I’m starting to wonder if you are one of those guys who still thinks it’s the “ultimate” martial art, or that it’s “undefeatable” like the Gracie’s used to claim…and it is neither.
[/quote]

I don’t mind zecarlo, but he is absolutely one of those guys.

Again, we’re all partial to our own art but he tends to take it to an extreme. I don’t argue about it anymore.

36

Let’s be honest, there are a lot of out of shape cops out there. Now, if they can’t be bothered to exercise you think they are going to go to Judo class 5 times a week? It’s not like someone begins cop training at the age of 10 and starts Judo at the same time. I’ve worked with cops and I’ve asked them why they don’t invest more time in weaponless defense and they almost always reply that they have a gun so why bother.

They work long hours and maybe have families they might want to spend time with. It’s not something they will be put a decent amount of time into unless they were involved in it before becoming a cop. If a cop has the time and desire then I would say to go ahead and try a variety of arts and see what works for that individual.

Do more than one at once if you see value in them (like boxing plus a grappling art). But I doubt most cops, like most people, are going to devote a significant portion of their life to a martial art so the best choice is one that you will actually enjoy doing. You can always fill in the gaps if it doesn’t give you answers to every question.

Is BJJ better than Judo for a cop? IMO, for most situations Judo is better but, not all people who become cops are going to be able to work hard enough to get good at it.

37

What if the cop has boobs?

Can I get a ruling on that?

Because there was a different thread were international judo experience and MMA couldn’t hold down an untrained grappler. So…

Regards,

Robert A

38

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Let’s be honest, there are a lot of out of shape cops out there. Now, if they can’t be bothered to exercise you think they are going to go to Judo class 5 times a week? It’s not like someone begins cop training at the age of 10 and starts Judo at the same time. I’ve worked with cops and I’ve asked them why they don’t invest more time in weaponless defense and they almost always reply that they have a gun so why bother.

They work long hours and maybe have families they might want to spend time with. It’s not something they will be put a decent amount of time into unless they were involved in it before becoming a cop. If a cop has the time and desire then I would say to go ahead and try a variety of arts and see what works for that individual.

Do more than one at once if you see value in them (like boxing plus a grappling art). But I doubt most cops, like most people, are going to devote a significant portion of their life to a martial art so the best choice is one that you will actually enjoy doing. You can always fill in the gaps if it doesn’t give you answers to every question.

Is BJJ better than Judo for a cop? IMO, for most situations Judo is better but, not all people who become cops are going to be able to work hard enough to get good at it. [/quote]

I think one of the really key things here that gets overlooked though is that wrestling(depending on the type) and judo are both stand up fighting sports. Yes, bjj standing game can get pretty involved. yes, judo and wrestling matches go down to the mat frequently. but still: judo and wrestling most of the action is standup fighting, bjj most of the action is on the ground. even though there is a lot of overlap in what techniques each school teaches, the bjj guy is always going to better at going to the ground than staying standing. I think a LEO needs to be better at remaining standing than going to the ground

39

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Let’s be honest, there are a lot of out of shape cops out there. Now, if they can’t be bothered to exercise you think they are going to go to Judo class 5 times a week? It’s not like someone begins cop training at the age of 10 and starts Judo at the same time. I’ve worked with cops and I’ve asked them why they don’t invest more time in weaponless defense and they almost always reply that they have a gun so why bother.

They work long hours and maybe have families they might want to spend time with. It’s not something they will be put a decent amount of time into unless they were involved in it before becoming a cop. If a cop has the time and desire then I would say to go ahead and try a variety of arts and see what works for that individual.

Do more than one at once if you see value in them (like boxing plus a grappling art). But I doubt most cops, like most people, are going to devote a significant portion of their life to a martial art so the best choice is one that you will actually enjoy doing. You can always fill in the gaps if it doesn’t give you answers to every question.

Is BJJ better than Judo for a cop? IMO, for most situations Judo is better but, not all people who become cops are going to be able to work hard enough to get good at it. [/quote]

Ok, but if we are talking about someone who is unwilling to put in the time or effort to be able to defend themselves effectively, then no Martial Art/Combat Sport is going to change that; I don’t care if it’s BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing, Krav, LSM, WWII Combatives, etc… Let’s be honest and admit that a couple classes or weekend seminar of Gracie Combatives is not going to prepare this type of person for a true life and death situation. Sure, some of the Cerebral Self Defense types of stuff that guys like Tony Blauer teach could be utilized with that little training, but most of those involve trying to avert or avoid hostile situations in the first place, which in many cases may not be an option for LEO’s.

That cop better just hope that he/she has the wits to avoid letting things go bad in the first place, has back-up/assisting officers with him/her at all times, or spends all of that time he/she didn’t spend on unarmed combative training on training with his/her weapons and hopes that he/she can always access them in time/there is no equipment malfunction.

40

A few thoughts.

When a cop goes hands on with a suspect it not a sport. Either the suspect resisted the officer’s commands to submit to being cuffed and searched and the officer must use physical force to make the arrest or the suspect attacked the officer. Thats about it. Either way it is not a sport. Force is going to be used and someone is probably going to get hurt. How bad depends on how pissed off the officer is and how much resistance the suspect puts up.

If either of these situations happens one on one then the officer is in grave danger and should instantly use as much force as necessary to ensure his or her safety up to and including deadly force. Yes. Think about it. The suspect has knowingly attacked a police officer or has knowingly decided to avoide being arrested by using force against a police officer. What sort of mindset does that suspect have? Does he have any regard for the physical damage he may do to the officer by his violent actions?

So the officer should have no reservations about using physical force if that is likely to get the desired outcome, if the officer is physically larger or stronger or more skilled at fighting than the suspect. If not then there should be no hesitation to use spray, tazer, baton, or firearm to ensure that the suspect loses the confrontation.

In sport either combatant can win. It is a contest. Neither is trying to kill the other. On the other hand in a cop vs. suspect conflict there can be no doubt as to the outcome. The cop can’t say to the suspect “Good moves, you win. See you later” .

Over a 17 year career I have lost count of the number of arrests made on resisting suspects and was attacked by one suspect during an investigation. There was never any Judo, Karate, BJJ, Akido, wrestling, or boxing employed. It always came down to raw violence. Same goes for all the officers I worked with. None of them ever used any formal martial arts to subdue a combative suspect. We all had training in take-downs and speed cuffing etc. but none of it seemed to work when the shit hit the fan.