^^
Overall, very true. While I can’t say that I’ve never used any of my martial arts training in my own career, I hear a lot of officers echoing what you say.
And I’m totally in agreement with the “maximum violence” aspect of your post. We aren’t playing for points here.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
What if the cop has boobs?
Can I get a ruling on that?
Because there was a different thread were international judo experience and MMA couldn’t hold down an untrained grappler. So…
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
My ruling is…I like boobs. Hooray for boobies!!
dpcavana,
I think I am following what you are trying to say. However the wording of the following( especially “how pissed off the officer is”, “grave danger”, and “instantly use as much force as necessary to ensure his or her safety, up to and including deadly force.”) seems problematic. And for the record I am firmly in the “be brutal enough, soon enough” camp.
[quote]dpcavana wrote:
When a cop goes hands on with a suspect it not a sport. Either the suspect resisted the officer’s commands to submit to being cuffed and searched and the officer must use physical force to make the arrest or the suspect attacked the officer. Thats about it. Either way it is not a sport. Force is going to be used and someone is probably going to get hurt. How bad depends on how pissed off the officer is and how much resistance the suspect puts up.
If either of these situations happens one on one then the officer is in grave danger and should instantly use as much force as necessary to ensure his or her safety up to and including deadly force.
[/quote]
I am also going to state that this reads as more of an indictment of either the specific techniques you were taught, or the way in which they were practiced/drilled/maintained than a problem with technical training as a whole.
Were the problems of the “no time”, the “can’t make it work”, or the "didn’t think to try variety? I know that all three are real issues whenever trying to do any skill “for real” vs controlled training.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
What if the cop has boobs?
Can I get a ruling on that?
Because there was a different thread were international judo experience and MMA couldn’t hold down an untrained grappler. So…
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
My ruling is…I like boobs. Hooray for boobies!!
[/quote]
Strongly agree.
I was just trying to reconcile BJJ is best, with Rousey couldn’t keep Floyd from posturing up and crushing her and not coming up with “no woman can possibly control a man physically, ever.”
Regards,
Robert A
Oh…I know. I read that thread, too. I just had nothing to say in that one, so I just grabbed my popcorn and watched.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Oh…I know. I read that thread, too. I just had nothing to say in that one, so I just grabbed my popcorn and watched.[/quote]
I wish I was smart enough to just do the popcorn thing.
dpcavana wrote,
“When a cop goes hands on with a suspect it not a sport”
Very well said, and, something I think gets lost on a lot of these “what style is best threads” for LEO’s. I have already expressed my opinion about going to the ground in my earlier post, but, :
There is a difference between someone being passive aggressive, resisting arrest, and, a life ending survival encounter. An officer has to evaluate the situation in seconds and respond with the APPROPRIATE level of force. I think this is the area that trained martial artists, who have no LEO experience, have the least understanding. I am no means an expert, but, i do consider myself trained in the basics. That said, I cannot use 90 perecent of what I know on a US arrest. Someone resisting, but, not trying to kill me, I cannot crush is trachea, break his arm, blind him in one eye, jam a pen through his throat, or hip toss him to the curb an bash his brains out. I would be in prison. I think this leads to an additude of “why should I learn that” “i will just get sued” mentality. The spector of always being second guessed by Internal Affairs or a civilian review board, creates an atmosphere of “hesitancy” that will lead to an officers death.
IMHO, its not the style of fighting, or what’s best (your style, fill in blank)________, its the mental and physical benefits the LEO gains by training hard, in that style. It produces a sharper mind, stronger body, and a survival edge, better able to evaluate those threat situations and respond appropriately. Deadly force situations are a no-brainer, its the other 99% of arrests that leads to these conversations.
Just for fun: followed the other thread and like Mapwrap said, I didn’t comment, however, I thought, it brought up a very philosophical dilemma: Am I gaining knowledge reading this thread, or am I simply losing brain cells?
[quote]idaho wrote:
Just for fun: followed the other thread and like Mapwrap said, I didn’t comment, however, I thought, it brought up a very philosophical dilemma: Am I gaining knowledge reading this thread, or am I simply losing brain cells?
[/quote]
Well, it was a “What if?”/opinion thread, those are going to have a higher signal to noise ratio than other threads. Still, without that thread we wouldn’t be able to use stutenbissigkeit(may have butchered the spelling there) in a sentence.
Also, I think I have gained a lot of knowledge through activities that have cost me brain cells.
Regards,
Robert A
To the OP,
I would seriously consider the advice of mapwhap and idaho. They are bringing a very solid knowledge base to this subject, not to say others are not.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]idaho wrote:
The spector of always being second guessed by Internal Affairs or a civilian review board, creates an atmosphere of “hesitancy” that will lead to an officers death…Deadly force situations are a no-brainer, its the other 99% of arrests that leads to these conversations.
Just for fun: followed the other thread and like Mapwrap said, I didn’t comment, however, I thought, it brought up a very philosophical dilemma: Am I gaining knowledge reading this thread, or am I simply losing brain cells?
[/quote]
This brings up some questions/thoughts that might be excessive thread drift here. Since you nominated “Bad Ideas” as the catch all thread I am going to cross post there. I hope that is ok with everyone.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]dpcavana wrote:
A few thoughts.
When a cop goes hands on with a suspect it not a sport. Either the suspect resisted the officer’s commands to submit to being cuffed and searched and the officer must use physical force to make the arrest or the suspect attacked the officer. Thats about it. Either way it is not a sport. Force is going to be used and someone is probably going to get hurt. How bad depends on how pissed off the officer is and how much resistance the suspect puts up.
If either of these situations happens one on one then the officer is in grave danger and should instantly use as much force as necessary to ensure his or her safety up to and including deadly force. Yes. Think about it. The suspect has knowingly attacked a police officer or has knowingly decided to avoide being arrested by using force against a police officer. What sort of mindset does that suspect have? Does he have any regard for the physical damage he may do to the officer by his violent actions?
So the officer should have no reservations about using physical force if that is likely to get the desired outcome, if the officer is physically larger or stronger or more skilled at fighting than the suspect. If not then there should be no hesitation to use spray, tazer, baton, or firearm to ensure that the suspect loses the confrontation.
In sport either combatant can win. It is a contest. Neither is trying to kill the other. On the other hand in a cop vs. suspect conflict there can be no doubt as to the outcome. The cop can’t say to the suspect “Good moves, you win. See you later” .
Over a 17 year career I have lost count of the number of arrests made on resisting suspects and was attacked by one suspect during an investigation. There was never any Judo, Karate, BJJ, Akido, wrestling, or boxing employed. It always came down to raw violence. Same goes for all the officers I worked with. None of them ever used any formal martial arts to subdue a combative suspect. We all had training in take-downs and speed cuffing etc. but none of it seemed to work when the shit hit the fan.
[/quote]
Great points and excellent post. I might disagree with your last paragraph (more so from second hand accounts from the numerous SWAT team members, DEA agents, and local LEO’s whom I have worked with and trained who swear by and have used their RMA skills in actual hands on encounters in the field), but completely agree with your premise that these situations are not sports, and priority #1 should be for the LEO to make it home safe at the end of the day.
[quote]idaho wrote:
dpcavana wrote,
“When a cop goes hands on with a suspect it not a sport”
Very well said, and, something I think gets lost on a lot of these “what style is best threads” for LEO’s. I have already expressed my opinion about going to the ground in my earlier post, but, :
There is a difference between someone being passive aggressive, resisting arrest, and, a life ending survival encounter. An officer has to evaluate the situation in seconds and respond with the APPROPRIATE level of force. I think this is the area that trained martial artists, who have no LEO experience, have the least understanding. I am no means an expert, but, i do consider myself trained in the basics. That said, I cannot use 90 perecent of what I know on a US arrest. Someone resisting, but, not trying to kill me, I cannot crush is trachea, break his arm, blind him in one eye, jam a pen through his throat, or hip toss him to the curb an bash his brains out. I would be in prison. I think this leads to an additude of “why should I learn that” “i will just get sued” mentality. The spector of always being second guessed by Internal Affairs or a civilian review board, creates an atmosphere of “hesitancy” that will lead to an officers death.
IMHO, its not the style of fighting, or what’s best (your style, fill in blank)________, its the mental and physical benefits the LEO gains by training hard, in that style. It produces a sharper mind, stronger body, and a survival edge, better able to evaluate those threat situations and respond appropriately. Deadly force situations are a no-brainer, its the other 99% of arrests that leads to these conversations.
Just for fun: followed the other thread and like Mapwrap said, I didn’t comment, however, I thought, it brought up a very philosophical dilemma: Am I gaining knowledge reading this thread, or am I simply losing brain cells?
[/quote]
Great post Idaho; and very important point about needing to judge the appropriate use of force. From my understanding this is going to somewhat change depending on department and state/municipality as well. Some have much more liberal use of force policies than others, do it would be prudent for a LEO to really become familiar with their department’s guidelines on this matter.
It occurs to me that we haven’t heard anything back from the OP in quite a while…
In any case, and to reiterate what Sento said earlier…find an art that has you going full speed, or at least close to full speed, with your opponent. Judo, BJJ, boxing and wrestling all fit that bill. Anything that gets you in a hard, physical struggle with a live opponent is going to be a good art for LEO work.
It’s more about the experience of actually struggling with another person than the actual art itself.
Hey guys,
Thanks for the input from everyone who has offered sound suggestions and real world experience to the thread.
Since I posted this thread, I have had a chance to train more (muay thai, judo, and boxing). Although some would suggest that I situate myself in one area first, I feel that the unpredictability of law enforcement (in terms of use of force situations) requires that I train in these arts. I am really enjoying myself and having a blast thus far with all three disciplines.
Because of my schedule, I am dedicating 3-4 days to muay thai, 3 days to boxing, and 2 days to judo. I wish I could add in more judo but the class schedules conflict with my work schedule. A group of good guys at the judo club I go to.
As for my judo club, class are structured around drilling technique approximately 15-20 minutes and then 8 rounds of randori and 6 rounds of newaza. I usually do about 3 to 4 rounds of randori and 3 rounds of newaza.
Thanks again to those who have contributed to this thread.
Im a little late the party here.
And I am certainly not a LEO or military or anything even close.
But I do live in your area- and played judo for close 20 years.
wrestling too.
can I ask where your are going for judo there are some good clubs in NYC
and in the pat few year a multitude of good to excellent BJJ clubs.
and some of them if you ask around- will have a class for LEO types
and they are private to LE only for the most part.
Wrestling- while Its something I did for years too- might not suit what you need
All the different styles of grappling- are really mastered thru repetition.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
It occurs to me that we haven’t heard anything back from the OP in quite a while…
In any case, and to reiterate what Sento said earlier…find an art that has you going full speed, or at least close to full speed, with your opponent. Judo, BJJ, boxing and wrestling all fit that bill. Anything that gets you in a hard, physical struggle with a live opponent is going to be a good art for LEO work.
It’s more about the experience of actually struggling with another person than the actual art itself. [/quote]
Listen up.
If you keep being rational like that we are never going to get a good old fashioned, style vs style, purse swinging, hair pulling cat fight going. This had the potential to be epic.
Focusing on the important points is just going to lead us to the realization that constant self improvement, and SELF CRITICISM is way more fruitful than arguing on the internet. And if we go down that rabbit hole, we have to train. And that is like, way, WAY much harder than typing. (At least now that my finger is mostly healed up.)
Regards,
Robert A
fearnloathingnyc,
Sounds like you are doing a hell of a lot to prepare/make yourself better. You should be commended for that.
There are a couple of other threads with topics that might be of interest.
Both the “Bad Ideas” thread and the Oregon shooting might be worth considering as idaho, mapwhap, and some others tend to have great insights. Both are on the front page.
Also here is a link to an older thread about the classic “Surviving Edged Weapons” video.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
fearnloathingnyc,
Sounds like you are doing a hell of a lot to prepare/make yourself better. You should be commended for that.
There are a couple of other threads with topics that might be of interest.
Both the “Bad Ideas” thread and the Oregon shooting might be worth considering as idaho, mapwhap, and some others tend to have great insights. Both are on the front page.
Also here is a link to an older thread about the classic “Surviving Edged Weapons” video.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I agree. He asked for advice, got it, and applied it. That’s pretty rare on an internet forum.
Well done, fearnloathingnyc.
If you are a novice LEO you have probably noticed that you are never alone when you are dealing with a suspect. If you have been involved with a resisting suspect and you have a partner or multiple units checking by it just turns into a gang bang for the suspect. He gets taken down by sheer weight. They actually have nearly zero chance of hurthing anyone when there is 200+ pounds of COP on each arm and leg and one or two on their back and neck.
After your first year passes and you start going on patrol by yourself is when you might get to experience a one on one fight. In that situation your martial arts training will certainly be an advantage to you, but being POWER LIFTER STRONG and having an unfailing determination to win will be much more important. Keep lifting!
^^
I don’t think anyone was saying not to lift…after all, we are on a weight training website. I would say the weight training and the martial arts training would go hand in hand.
As for the first part about being a novice LEO never being alone…surely you know that isn’t the case everywhere. That may be the case in YOUR jurisdiction, but that is hardly a rule nationwide. I was running calls by myself well inside of 6 months, and started working part time / side jobs then, too. And you are almost ALWAYS alone on those.
So, no. You don’t always have backup your first year out.
As for being…how did you put it…“POWER LIFTER STRONG”…absolutely be as strong as you can be. But a little technique goes a long way in a fight. I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but bad guys lift weights too. And there is always someone out there who is bigger / stronger / faster than you.
Every advantage helps in a fight…not just being POWER LIFTER STRONG.