Work Life Balance: Advice from 30 Year Olds

Off Topic
1

I’m about to graduate in a year so right now I’m looking into jobs. As part of my screening criteria, I place a lot of emphasis on work life balance. Thing is, being young and inexperienced, I don’t have enough insight on the issue. My current view is that it is not worth trading in the extra hours in exchange for a bit more cash.

I’d love to hear your experiences and input on the issue.

It’d be great to have some basic info:
Age, job/industry. hours per week

Here are some questions that might help to get your thoughts going:

  1. What were your views on work life balance in your 20s, and how has it changed as you got older, got a family etc
  2. If you did sacrifice a lot of time in your youth chasing money, do you regret it?
2

I’m only (?) 28, but I’ll comment nevertheless.

Industry: software
Hours per week: 45-100+

Probably one of the most important lessons I picked up is that quality of life is pretty much only determined by how much quality you give to your life. “Money doesn’t buy happiness” is kind of a naive way to put it; a more useful way to put it is that money doesn’t give you quality of life. You kind of have to make that for yourself.

In most of my jobs, I’ve enjoyed the work I do, the environment and tools I have to work with, the people I work with, and I felt a sense of accomplishment and value from the work I did. I’ve felt the same way in jobs that paid very little, and jobs that paid a whole lot more.

I’ve also been in jobs that I didn’t enjoy, that were very unstable, where the work wasn’t valued, and so on. I made the best of them as I could, but I took better opportunities when they rose. Some of those unsatisfying jobs paid well, and some didn’t.

Basically what I’m saying is I’ve found little correlation between quality of life and actual salary. I’d suggest that while money is important, determining whether you’ll actually feel happy and successful doing that job is far far more important. Plan to stick with your first job for a minimum of 2 – ideally 3 – years.

–

With respect to how that cuts into “free” time, that’s something you’ll mostly just have to figure out. It’s very unique to the individual.

When I was single, I had enough wiggle room to maneuver work and play to get what I wanted. Very rarely did I absolutely have to work extra; most of the time I could plan ahead and work around other stuff in my life. Now that I’m no longer single, I’ve adjusted my work hours to match her schedule so that we could spend plenty of time together. But even so, I feel there’s enough time to get it all done and enjoy myself too.

–

I don’t know if that helps at all. Mostly, I’d just suggest doing the job that pays you well enough, and that you’ll be doing something you can learn from and grow from, with good people.

Money is nice to have to do/buy “fun” things, but I’ve found that it’s far more important as a buffer of safety for when things go wrong… like when medical issues and car issues all hit at once. Money is great to have to protect yourself against all the stuff that brings you down and makes things hard.

Obviously the experiences are different, but there are many many ways to not spend money and still enjoy things with yourself, friends, and girlfriend/family. And those things are really what you should be focused on.

3

In the interest of disclosure, I am a headhunter, AKA recruiter for financial services. I have recruited for several different professions so I think I have a good perspective. Personally, I actually have a good work/life balance, but it took some time to get there and I still have the occasional 16hr day.

Companies like fresh college grads because of their energy, enthusiasm and willingness to "do what it takes to get the job done. Most post graduate jobs are going to expect you to “put your time in” before you experience “work/life balance.”

Your particular situation is going to depend on you chosen field. Many of the top paying fields are hell early in the career.

4

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
In the interest of disclosure, I am a headhunter, AKA recruiter for financial services. I have recruited for several different professions so I think I have a good perspective. Personally, I actually have a good work/life balance, but it took some time to get there and I still have the occasional 16hr day.

Companies like fresh college grads because of their energy, enthusiasm and willingness to "do what it takes to get the job done. Most post graduate jobs are going to expect you to “put your time in” before you experience “work/life balance.”

Your particular situation is going to depend on you chosen field. Many of the top paying fields are hell early in the career. [/quote]

Good post. Some of these things I forget. Part of the reason I have the flexibility I do is because I went through those periods of time where 11pm was an early night, and 2am was about “normal”. Then getting back in at 8-8:30 the next day.

Biggest key is to be great at what you do, since the better you are, the more flexibility you can have.

If you’re creative, you can get everything out of the ‘limited’ time you have. If you’re motivated enough, you can figure out how to make it work.

5

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Companies like fresh college grads because of their energy, enthusiasm and willingness to "do what it takes to get the job done. Most post graduate jobs are going to expect you to “put your time in” before you experience “work/life balance.”
[/quote]

Agree with all of the above except for “companies like fresh college grads”. Many don’t. There is a prevailing sense of entitlement among many (but not all) college grads. “I got my B.Sc…I should be making 90k right away with 4 weeks paid vacation and employer matched IRA”…etc. You’ll see most job postings asking for 2+ years of experience - this is because a.) another firm or company has made the investment to train you and b.) the reality of work life has probably knocked you down a few pegs to more realistic expectations.

Work your ass off, prove yourself, and do what the other guy won’t do. The work/life balance comes later, but it has to be earned.

6

35, Sales, (Single)

The biggest thing for work life balance is having a wide / varied group of friends, I was always determined to do everything on my own and had very little tolerance if I felt like I couldn’t trust people 100%, this lead me to becoming very isolated, so even though I became pretty succesfull and had plenty of time on my hands to do things I didn’t have a good work life balance.

Money allows you to upscale your choices but really it’s only the cosmetic things that change, you can go to a nicer ski resort, eat better food, but a better car, but your friends are still your friends, finally make sure you actually plan the things that you want to spend your free time doing into your schedule, if you really want to maximise your time you need to plan in advance.

7

Make a lot of money and do what ever the fuck you want.

8

33, married/kid, tree maintenance

When you say “graduate”, do you mean HS or post secondary? If the latter, what is your degree in? Kind of impacts your options really…

Regarding your question, as others have said you will generally need to pay your dues for a bit before “work/life balance” really kicks in. More so if you have any desired to be self employed or to own your business. I have the good fortune to come in contact with people from a broad range of socioeconomic strata and I try to take advantage of their experiences when I’m forming my opinions.

It has my observation that, if you want to have work/life balance AND a reasonable amount of disposable income and freedom with which to enjoy it you need to a.) be born rich b.) marry rich c.) work at something for long enough that that your skill set and thus your ability to create value or, in the case of your more union/public sector type jobs your seniority and position justifies that level of compensation and flexibility. Another, opposite example is a guy I used to work with who would do brutal, extremely seasonal work (tree-planting) for 3-4 months out of the year and then piss of to somewhere hot and cheap (Indonesia) for the other 9. Not great longevity on that program, but it’s pretty awesome in your 20’s if you don’t have a better plan.

If you don’t mind a level of instability in your life you can get involved in a field that lends itself to short term, highly lucrative but sporadic contract work that usually takes place in areas that are very hot/cold, remote, hazardous or all of the above. This will generally require some kind of very specific skill set. A friend of mine (helicopter mechanic) spent years working in shit holes overseas for what amounted to basically 4-6 months out of the year, 3-6 weeks at a time earning 90-100k and change a year. The rest of the year he spent fucking around, traveling, drinking, getting divorced etc. The problem is that the contracts weren’t that regular, were highly dependent on fluctuations in the economy and he never knew when the next pay day was coming. He did seem to enjoy the best work/life balance of anybody I know. However he did pay his dues doing shit jobs in shit places for shit money for some time before he got there.

I guess what I’m saying is that at some point, unless you’re just really lucky, you’re gonna have to work more than you want to for longer than you want to. You can do it when you’re or when you’re in you 60’s working as a greeter at Wal-Mart because you didn’t do it when you were young.

9

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
Companies like fresh college grads because of their energy, enthusiasm and willingness to "do what it takes to get the job done. Most post graduate jobs are going to expect you to “put your time in” before you experience “work/life balance.”
[/quote]

Agree with all of the above except for “companies like fresh college grads”. Many don’t. There is a prevailing sense of entitlement among many (but not all) college grads. “I got my B.Sc…I should be making 90k right away with 4 weeks paid vacation and employer matched IRA”…etc. You’ll see most job postings asking for 2+ years of experience - this is because a.) another firm or company has made the investment to train you and b.) the reality of real life has probably knocked you down a few pegs to more realistic expectations.

Work your ass off, prove yourself, and do what the other guy won’t do. The work/life balance comes later, but it has to be earned.
[/quote]

There’s that issue too. I’ve thrown a few grads out of my office (politely)when they arrive with that attitude. Luckily, most candidates are attracted to finance becuase of the potential money, and that it is a meritocracy. They’re usually state school grads with work ethic, who want more than a 3% raise anually.

10

Your 20’s are for learning and your 30’s are for earning. If you are going to make it you will have to put in some serious hours (unless you are some kind of super freak of course). I’d say it’s best to take a job with better learning potential rather than just money. This also goes for working menial jobs to make a few extra dollars. As for sacrificing your youth for work, it’s difficult especially if everyone else appears to be out having fun most nights and weekends. Hard to tell if it’s worth it or not as you will find people on both sides of the fence, ones wishing they’d spent more time with their families and the others wishing they have the balls to go out on their own.

11

If you really value having a social life, friends and family then it’s probably best you don’t start your own business…

12

Hi guys,

Thank you for the responses! Its all been helpful.

To elaborate a bit more on my situation. I am majoring in Honors economics and finance. But after last two internships I realized a few things:

  1. I don’t have the stamina to last over 8 hours. My memory gets all fogged up and I start making more errors.
  2. I am not as detailed orientated as I thought I was.
  3. I manage stress poorly. I constantly felt anxious and a bit off edge even after work. I tend to quite be paranoid and anxious in other areas of my life too. Maybe some counseling would help?

Just to clarify some points up. I don’t expect to find a job that is both great on work life balance and pay. I would be fine working a job that pays say 30-40k but with decent hours vs 80k but regular 12 hour days. The problem I have with most finance jobs is that it is too stressful, too fast paced, and it requires you to be in tune with the financial markets. The job doesn’t quite end.

I guess the main issue I need to work out is:

  1. Find something I am willing to put forth the hours in
  2. Find a job more suitable for my personality? I wouldn’t categorize myself as the typical energetic undergrad with endless stamina, but a introvert with a strong ability to problem solve and focus if the task is right.

On that note, do you believe there is such a thing as a job that suits? or is it something you slowly mould yourself into over time.

13

[quote]Mr Stern wrote:
If you really value having a social life, friends and family then it’s probably best you don’t start your own business…[/quote]
I would disagree and say owning a business allows greater flexibility and balance than anything.

The key would be to open an enterprise with relatively low overhead and easily delegated tasks. Perhaps a sales brokerage or distributorship of some kind.

You will have to buckle down for a while no doubt but once you gain your footing, much of the pressure falls on employees.

If you’re moving some one else’s product, you don’t have to worry about production, operational responsibility is minimal and if you have a steady stream of clients you can squeeze for better and better profit margins.

Outsource your accounting to a CPA and you’re basically on the hook to keep your employees motivated and productive, which can be done with a weekly meeting and some incentives as well as a general presence often enough to keep them on their toes. Hell, you could post on T-Nation, read books and do what ever else in your office, leave at lunch or take long breaks, as long as they know you may be dropping in that’s all it takes. Plus performance metrics, basic management tools.

The next step would be to hire a competent manger to do the above, then just communicate with him. (so looking forward to this).

Now you aren’t tied at all. Pop in now and then, communicate with the manger about day to day shit via phone/email/webcam and empower him to make operational decisions with your blessing and you can run the show from anywhere in the world at any time.

Now you’re free to do what ever the fuck you want and have the income to do so. And in your twenties/early thirties.

Or open another office or business if you’re just ambitious. But it sounds like you’re not. So take a mediocre job with a cool title, earn a little above the national average, work for a company that offers vacation right off the bat and maybe a 9/80 schedule and call it awesome.

To echo above though, pay your dues, whether for someone else or yourself and reap greater financial and balance rewards after a few years and for the rest of your career.

14

[quote]Mondy wrote:
To elaborate a bit more on my situation. I am majoring in Honors economics and finance. But after last two internships I realized a few things:

  1. I don’t have the stamina to last over 8 hours. My memory gets all fogged up and I start making more errors.
  2. I am not as detailed orientated as I thought I was.
  3. I manage stress poorly. I constantly felt anxious and a bit off edge even after work. I tend to quite be paranoid and anxious in other areas of my life too. Maybe some counseling would help?[/quote]

Honestly, those are things you can improve on. I don’t want to suggest self-medicating with caffeine and alcohol (although those can help to some degree), but improving sleep, diet, and exercise, as well as addressing things like insufficient vitamin/mineral intake can help. By insufficient, I mean “it’s not low enough to be considered a medical deficiency, but not high enough to be working optimally”. I suggest looking into a book called “The UltraMind Solution” (you can skip the beginning; where the checklists start is where you should start reading).

Therapy ‘might’ help, but I’m not sure that’s a direction worth pursuing yet. I would focus on some the basics above first, and then consider therapy if you still need something more. Only then (after working with a therapist), would I then suggest seeing a psychiatrist, based on how the therapy goes. But you might just need some changes to sleep, diet and nutrition, and things will improve.

Pay attention to the career tracks of either of those jobs. With the first one, if in a few years, you can get yourself to a point where you’re making 80+k but working normal hours, I’d consider it. If the earning potential only tops out at, say, 50k, then I’d look elsewhere. I’ve found that smaller companies are great for gaining lots of experience and responsibility, but lacks the career potential that a larger company has (both financially and in terms of personal growth).

I had a friend (MIT Econ grad) who did her 2 years in the finance world, made a 100+k with 100k+ bonus. She lived a good life, but absolutely hated her job. After those 2 years, she quit. She then taught math classes to underprivleged kids for awhile, and spent some time vacationing around the world. There’s a very high burnout rate in some finance jobs.

It’s something you find over time. You somewhat have to make it for yourself. But first, you need to just be very good at following instructions and excel at their performance. Eventually your strengths and weaknesses will surface, and if the company is good at personnel management, you’ll start ending up with work that suits your particular work style. It took me almost 10 years to get to that point. (At a few different companies.)

15

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Hi guys,

Thank you for the responses! Its all been helpful.

To elaborate a bit more on my situation. I am majoring in Honors economics and finance. But after last two internships I realized a few things:

  1. I don’t have the stamina to last over 8 hours. My memory gets all fogged up and I start making more errors.
  2. I am not as detailed orientated as I thought I was.
  3. I manage stress poorly. I constantly felt anxious and a bit off edge even after work. I tend to quite be paranoid and anxious in other areas of my life too. Maybe some counseling would help?

Just to clarify some points up. I don’t expect to find a job that is both great on work life balance and pay. I would be fine working a job that pays say 30-40k but with decent hours vs 80k but regular 12 hour days. The problem I have with most finance jobs is that it is too stressful, too fast paced, and it requires you to be in tune with the financial markets. The job doesn’t quite end.

I guess the main issue I need to work out is:

  1. Find something I am willing to put forth the hours in
  2. Find a job more suitable for my personality? I wouldn’t categorize myself as the typical energetic undergrad with endless stamina, but a introvert with a strong ability to problem solve and focus if the task is right.

On that note, do you believe there is such a thing as a job that suits? or is it something you slowly mould yourself into over time.

[/quote]
30-40k, won’t handle stress, refuses to stay on top of chosen industry and wants to work minimal hours.

Serious advice:

Get your shit together and adjust to reality

Or

Drop out now before you incurr a boatload of wasted debt and go in to retail sales or something. Work just hard enough to manage the store and then just hard enough to not be replaced.

16

[quote]Mondy wrote:
Hi guys,

Thank you for the responses! Its all been helpful.

To elaborate a bit more on my situation. I am majoring in Honors economics and finance. But after last two internships I realized a few things:

  1. I don’t have the stamina to last over 8 hours. My memory gets all fogged up and I start making more errors.
  2. I am not as detailed orientated as I thought I was.
  3. I manage stress poorly. I constantly felt anxious and a bit off edge even after work. I tend to quite be paranoid and anxious in other areas of my life too. Maybe some counseling would help?

Just to clarify some points up. I don’t expect to find a job that is both great on work life balance and pay. I would be fine working a job that pays say 30-40k but with decent hours vs 80k but regular 12 hour days. The problem I have with most finance jobs is that it is too stressful, too fast paced, and it requires you to be in tune with the financial markets. The job doesn’t quite end.

I guess the main issue I need to work out is:

  1. Find something I am willing to put forth the hours in
  2. Find a job more suitable for my personality? I wouldn’t categorize myself as the typical energetic undergrad with endless stamina, but a introvert with a strong ability to problem solve and focus if the task is right.

On that note, do you believe there is such a thing as a job that suits? or is it something you slowly mould yourself into over time.

[/quote]

You see, this is much honest than your initial post. A lot of people who talk about work/life balance as some kind of moral principle just don’t really like working and don’t want to do any more of it than they absolutely have to. Unfortunately, this doesn’t really seem to work. Look at the whole Greece situation. Somebody has to foot the bill, and no one wants to be your Germany. Not meaning to be a dick, just sayin’.

I can absolutely understand how a couple of internships might put you off the idea of working in finance. Kind of a drag when you get most of the way through school only to realize that you probably don’t like doing what you’ve been borrowing stacks of money to study to do. This happens to many, many people and it is a real flaw in the whole educational process IMO. Of course, people coming up in the depression era would scoff at the whole idea of giving any thought at all to whether or not you liked a job and there is real value in that type of mental toughness as well, especially if times truly get tough as they already have for many.

Regarding your first 3 points, those are all, as LoRez pointed out, qualities that can and must be developed if you ever want to accomplish, well anything. Even if you just want to survive having kids someday for that matter. There are few things in this life as liberating and confidence-building as knowing you can force yourself to see a difficult and unpleasant task through to completion, regardless of whether you “feel” like it. Like any other type of training it will be a matter of discipline and consistency to progress, but it’s worth it. If you ever do find your “dream” job, you will very likely need to eat some shit before you get to the dreamy part, and even then you will need to eat a little from time to time.

Regarding jobs that suit, if you mean something where the parts that you find agreeable/gratifying outweigh the parts that suck as it relates to your temperament, interests and aptitudes and which through hard work and persistence can get to a point where it provides a decent income then yes, to varying degrees. If you mean something that’s easy, fulfilling, fun, flexible, lucrative and hiring people right out of school then no not so much. Work will generally present you with some situations where “the task is right” and many others where the task sucks. That is why someone gets paid to do it. I believe that you will always need to adapt yourself to elements of any job as no one will pay you to play video games and get blow jobs (if you find someone forward me the link, though). However I don’t see that adaptation as a bad thing provided you’re not sacrificing your values and principles.

17

There’s a difference between “work life balance” and a 40 hour week. And what do you consider decent hours? The 40 hour workweek is basically dead so suck it up buttercup. But I do understand not wanting to work too many hours or too much stress; I turned down my boss’s job when my previous boss left because it doesn’t pay enough (non profit work can suck) and involves 60-80 hours a week, most of the year–I’m not doing that for pay in the 30s, with no hope of advancement.

18

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]Mr Stern wrote:
If you really value having a social life, friends and family then it’s probably best you don’t start your own business…[/quote]
I would disagree and say owning a business allows greater flexibility and balance than anything.

The key would be to open an enterprise with relatively low overhead and easily delegated tasks. Perhaps a sales brokerage or distributorship of some kind.

You will have to buckle down for a while no doubt but once you gain your footing, much of the pressure falls on employees.

If you’re moving some one else’s product, you don’t have to worry about production, operational responsibility is minimal and if you have a steady stream of clients you can squeeze for better and better profit margins.

Outsource your accounting to a CPA and you’re basically on the hook to keep your employees motivated and productive, which can be done with a weekly meeting and some incentives as well as a general presence often enough to keep them on their toes. Hell, you could post on T-Nation, read books and do what ever else in your office, leave at lunch or take long breaks, as long as they know you may be dropping in that’s all it takes. Plus performance metrics, basic management tools.

The next step would be to hire a competent manger to do the above, then just communicate with him. (so looking forward to this).

Now you aren’t tied at all. Pop in now and then, communicate with the manger about day to day shit via phone/email/webcam and empower him to make operational decisions with your blessing and you can run the show from anywhere in the world at any time.

Now you’re free to do what ever the fuck you want and have the income to do so. And in your twenties/early thirties.

Or open another office or business if you’re just ambitious. But it sounds like you’re not. So take a mediocre job with a cool title, earn a little above the national average, work for a company that offers vacation right off the bat and maybe a 9/80 schedule and call it awesome.

To echo above though, pay your dues, whether for someone else or yourself and reap greater financial and balance rewards after a few years and for the rest of your career.[/quote]

No, owning a successful business will allow that much sort after flexibility and balance. Everyone starts a business with the ideology of putting in a little bit of work and then backing out after a couple of years to have a self sustaining business from which they can expand or do what ever they want with. Yeah the idea is that you never have to retire because by the time you hit your 40s/50s you are doing exactly what you love so it’s no longer classed as work for you.

The plan you outlined is excellent and I’m sure pretty much everyone here would love to follow it’s blueprint, however things rarely run that smoothly. Of course I could be wrong and this is what you or your friends have done and are reaping the rewards. If so congratulations to you, you have my respect.

I’m just saying business is all about risk management. Taking risks in areas where others have decided against it or just haven’t seen the opportunities. If you find an area of high demand then excellent you can make a lot of money. Just remember things are constantly changing; a similar but much bigger company may open next door and undercut you significantly or you may loose a major client through a change in management or policy.

Things change and a lot of money is made or lost and if someone more experienced or hungrier than you is at the table then they will most likely clean your plate for you. There are times when you have to put your business above everything else and if your friends or family cannot understand this then you are in trouble. If you cannot handle the stress of things not going so well then definitely become an employee (preferably on a set hourly rate) and enjoy life.

19

[quote]Mondy wrote:
I’m about to graduate in a year so right now I’m looking into jobs. As part of my screening criteria, I place a lot of emphasis on work life balance. [/quote]

Sorry, you have to earn the right for “work life balance.” If lucky, and sucessful, you can have some in your late 30s.

I’ve seen this with so many engineers that are my age or younger. (I happen to be an employer, so I feel like a member of the older generation.)

Soft, useless, fucks just out of college talk about “work life balance.” That transaltes to me (as an employer) "I’m a lazy fuck who is punching a clock and won’t there to help when it is “bust your ass time”

As a result, I actively seek out people who served in combat arms positions in the Army or Marines or some of the elite Navy positions. They actualy have the fucking spine to do what needs to be done when the time comes.

20

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Mondy wrote:
I’m about to graduate in a year so right now I’m looking into jobs. As part of my screening criteria, I place a lot of emphasis on work life balance. [/quote]

Sorry, you have to earn the right for “work life balance.” If lucky, and sucessful, you can have some in your late 30s.

I’ve seen this with so many engineers that are my age or younger. (I happen to be an employer, so I feel like a member of the older generation.)

Soft, useless, fucks just out of college talk about “work life balance.” That transaltes to me (as an employer) "I’m a lazy fuck who is punching a clock and won’t there to help when it is “bust your ass time”

As a result, I actively seek out people who served in combat arms positions in the Army or Marines or some of the elite Navy positions. They actualy have the fucking spine to do what needs to be done when the time comes.[/quote]

Well put.

On the software side, we have many layers of testing/assessment before even the first real phone call during the hiring process. I myself had three rounds of verbal and online testing before the first screening call with a manager. Then a second screening call. Then a half-day on site interview, including even more testing to see how well I perform under pressure with everyone watching. The whole process took about a month.

We lose a few good candidates that way (they almost lost me because of all the other offers I got during that time), but everyone who does make it through is highly competent, and willing to put the work in.

OP, I’ve been more gentle in the way I phrased things than the other guys, but my message the same as theirs. In a very real sense, it comes down to “man the fuck up”.