Do I TRT cruise and blast twice a year or cycle twice a year and do proper pct? I have good test numbers, 550+ and 80+ free, I’ve considered trt just to get the extra numbers near 900 but from everything I’ve read everyone says there’s no point for me to be in trt (or not worth it).
If that’s the case I’m going to start cycling once or twice a year like I did when I was younger, but my question is about the pct part, is pct significantly worse for you than people that are on Trt and just blast twice a year?
Perhaps someone can inform me, because I’ve only taken TRT, not roids. I don’t see how PCT solves anything considering what’s likely is roid users needing TRT after stopping roids anyway. How can someone return to normal values after stopping PCT? Shutdown is shutdown.
Ok explain to me then, if I have normal (high-ish) test levels I’m basically just in the camp of being able to cycle (not that that’s a bad thing). I’ve done all this before I’m just more health conscious now so figured blast and cruise would be less detrimental on the body, is pct that bad?
I’m unsure of what you mean. Everyone is able to cycle.
There is nothing inherently bad about eugonadal men taking clomid or HCG. What I meant before was that someone on PCT is likely lower in health status than some guy taking TRT for hypogonadism because PCT is preceded by doing roids.
I don’t see a point in doing PCT because it appears near every roid user has to use TRT when they stop using, whether they did PCT or not. There are no other permanent effects of clomid or HCG. If a man is hypogonadal, he will have abnormally low T values if he stops using HCG, clomid, or TRT.
Then there are guys who pile on redundant medications during PCT, which is problematic too.
Shutdown is temporary for the majority of steroid users. Anabolics break the HPTA loop. Your body senses the androgens and stops producing fsh/Lh thereby shutting down the testes from producing natural testosterone. When you stop taking the Anabolics your body will eventually try to restart but it’s slow and arduous all the while you feel like crap and lose your cycle gains.
A post cycle therapy (PCT) of SERMs will speed up recovery. They bind to the estrogen receptors in the pituitary and hypothalamus blocking estrogens negative feedback on the HPTA loop. This stimulates the release of FSH/LH and hence a quicker jump start.
Most PCT users will get back to whatever levels they had before albeit some struggle or don’t fully recover leading to the necessity of TRT.
Right. That’s the point of PCT. However, while I don’t know many former roid users personally, all the ones who’ve confided in me eventually needed TRT.
But did they? To maintain their physiques of course. But was it natural age progression they were feeling and trying to avoid or …. were they truly hypogonadal? Not being a smart ass either.
Back in college in the 2000s all my fraternity brothers cycled and PCT. I’m guessing your recovery is certainly easier when younger.
I cycled and pct’d 4-5 times back in college, my test levels have been as high as 650 naturally 20 years later. That’s my plan now I was just wondering if I was missing something on why I shouldn’t do that again (cycle/pct until numbers send me to the BnC routine). Blast and cruise wasn’t really a thing from what I remember back then
They became hypogonadal from using drugs, I suspect. They weren’t spring chickens, but, with the exception of one who used drugs for three decades, they weren’t in the old category.
Perhaps my friends are a biased crowd. You report PCT working reliably and I trust you, so I believe you.
PCT does work, and if you read the literature on AAS you’ll find the vast majority of healthy young men recover eventually after use (including the studies where graded doses of T are given to healthy subjects with the highest dose group being given 600mgs for 20 weeks)
In all studies using high doses of AAS (some actually involve administering the drugs as opposed to observing what subjects report taking) generally the subjects re-gain testicular function, but it takes time… it takes longer to recover spermatogenesis relative to how long it takes to recover normal endocrine parameters.
But lets say you run a cycle, your baseline TT/FT is 650, post cycle it’s 610 and each cycle you wind up 40ng/dl lower than before… Run ten cycles that are 10+ weeks long and now you have anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism (ASIH)… Lots of men use HCG on cycle to maintain intra-testicular testosterone production and this is probably a good idea as studies that exist using HCG and TRT indicate intra testicular testosterone production is preserved if you take HCG (however HCG itself is indirectly suppressive, but I’d wager it’s easier to recover if the testis are still “working” while you are on cycle).
Your friends winding up with hypogonadism isn’t incidental, you are looking at the consequences from long term steroid use… and that’s not the only consequence that can arise from prolonged AAS use… pathological cardiac remodelling, a heart attack, kidney failure, the list goes on… Even neurodegeneration/a proximate reduction in IQ appears to be an issue following prolonged exposure to high doses, though one study looking at this quoted a mean dose of over 1000mg per week over many years…
You can’t recover forever, and when do you hit that point of no return? Largely genetic…
Sometimes it takes years to recover normal HPTA function, and lots of guys don’t want to wait years… The rule most use is “time on = time off” after PCT, and often those few months off aren’t long enough to properly recover…
This study looks at AAS using weightlifters vs controls. You’ll notice the majority of former AAS users are fine however they still have lower levels of total and free testosterone and the difference is statistically significant.
If you break down that difference you’ll see 30% of former users had/have a total testosterone level below 200ng/dl despite 3-26 months of AAS abstinence… If you take this 30% out of the equation the rest of the former users are likely on par with controls meaning the statistically significant decrease in total and free testosterone is PROBABLY largely mediated from the former-AAS users who didn’t recover
If you look at people who don’t recover GENERALLY they’ve used higher doses for longer durations of time… and many haven’t recovered before hopping back on. In general men with PCT often go through a withdrawl period where severe depression etc isn’t uncommon and this encourages the user to hop back on well before their HPTA has actually recovered.
This is more of an observational study and flaws exist within many of these studies but this one shows a portion of men remain shut down 6 months after ceasing use of AAS.
This study found PCT hastens recovery of endocrine parameters (FH, LH, Total and free testosterone) and in doing so dramatically decreases the severity of the withdrawl syndrome AAS users often go through. Having a total testosterone of 50ng/dl is pretty garbage, and some previously healthy men will experience suicidal thoughts etc going through that.
Lot’s of men who take steroids become psychologically dependent on them… and eventually physically dependent on TRT
Your friend group is probably bodybuilders who took it seriously and ran cycles for years… and I’d wager MOST people like that will develop ASIH.
There is reason to not want to touch roids… and have you seen the dosages people are using nowadays? a GRAM per week isn’t even considered a lot anymore…
I’d be very curious to know what the kind of AAS use seen by golden era bodybuilders does long term in terms of endocrine function provided you are healthy at baseline.
@RT_Nomad talks about his use back in the 70s and 80s, and if you look at his physique in the 70s clearly the steroids work really well at those doses. I do believe he managed to recover normal baseline endocrine function despite cycling on and off, they didn’t know much about PCT back then
and he ran oral only cycles etc… everything that people rally against today yet it worked for him and it worked for many.
RT nomad did eventually wind up on TRT, but he also contracted a serious autoimmune disease that causes muscle tissue to die off and was put on long term high dose corticosteroid therapy which in itself can lead to HPTA suppression.
Here’s a study that looks over AAS users using PCT. 79.5% of AAS users recovered to an acceptable standard. There was a strong correlation between duration of use, stacking, type of AAS used and the dose and how well users recovered… As mentioned earlier I imagine competitive bodybuilders will almost always be in that group of AAS users who almost always develop ASIH due to prolonged exposure, choice of highly suppressive drugs etc.
There is a drug called triptorelin that is an agonist analogue of gonadotropin releasing hormone… in high dosages it’s used for chemical castration (for sexual deviancy or for prostate cancer) and it acts as an analogue and agonist of gonadotropin release hormone (GnRH > FSH/LH> testosterone)
In tiny microdoses it causes the pituitary to pulse out FSH and LH without the subsequent downregulation of GnRH receptors… it’s interesting as there are case reports of people who have failed PCT spontaneously recovering with a shot of triptorelin… but god forbid you get the dose wrong (or the product you purchase isn’t accurately dosed)
It’s very interesting, but it’s also highly experimental
If I ever had to come off completely I’d take a shot of this… as it’s not like I was put on HCG when TRT began… There is some literature to suggest low dose HCG can maintain intra testicular testosterone production and spermatogenesis while on TRT therefore I don’t understand why it hasn’t caught on as a staple in TRT regiments