Wisconsin Heating Up

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
And now the Republicans voted to have the State Police find and bring the AWOL dems back by 4pm tomorrow.
Apparently, it’s just short of an arrest. And if they don’t come back, the Gov. writes lay-off orders.
Either way, looks like the Gov. won this one.

[/quote]

The Wisconsin Senate has voted 19-0 to hold the missing Dems in contempt. A warrant for their arrest has been issued.

This is getting good. [/quote]

I guess what I find interesting in all of this is that if it was a group of republicans you guys would be patting them on the back.

Either way this is the same process used by the Feds to shove through a health care bill that was a bad deal.

Different wolf same clothing…

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
And now the Republicans voted to have the State Police find and bring the AWOL dems back by 4pm tomorrow.
Apparently, it’s just short of an arrest. And if they don’t come back, the Gov. writes lay-off orders.
Either way, looks like the Gov. won this one.

[/quote]

The Wisconsin Senate has voted 19-0 to hold the missing Dems in contempt. A warrant for their arrest has been issued.

This is getting good. [/quote]

I guess what I find interesting in all of this is that if it was a group of republicans you guys would be patting them on the back.

Either way this is the same process used by the Feds to shove through a health care bill that was a bad deal.

Different wolf same clothing…[/quote]

We really don’t know, because (to the best of my knowledge) Republicans have not fled the state that they represent. Like a bunch of cowards. That has to be one of the most chicken shit bitch moves I have ever seen. This is worse than the usual whoredom that we see on both sides. To take your ball away and go home because no one picked you is some epic pussy shit.

The cost of repairing the state courthouse from protesters is 7.5 million bucks. Hey Libs, you could have used that money to pay teachers. Send the bill to the unions.

damn, sucks for that Dem who tried to enter the Capitol building. Capitol police thought he was a protester trying to come in and they tackled his ass. Thereafter the Dem showed his credentials, permitting him access.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
damn, sucks for that Dem who tried to enter the Capitol building. Capitol police thought he was a protester trying to come in and they tackled his ass. Thereafter the Dem showed his credentials, permitting him access.[/quote]

Hope they cracked a rib when they tackled him. Bruise a kidney at bare minimum.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
damn, sucks for that Dem who tried to enter the Capitol building. Capitol police thought he was a protester trying to come in and they tackled his ass. Thereafter the Dem showed his credentials, permitting him access.[/quote]

Hope they cracked a rib when they tackled him. Bruise a kidney at bare minimum. [/quote]

Hey buddy you need to bring this stuff to California.

Survey SAYS…

“OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!! Unions Lose!”

Wis. GOP strips public workers’ bargaining rights

MADISON, Wis. (AP) – Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber’s missing Democrats.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker’s so-called “budget repair bill” - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.

Full Story:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-45-22

They wanted to fuck around and play games… fuck 'em all.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Survey SAYS…

“OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!! Unions Lose!”

Wis. GOP strips public workers’ bargaining rights

MADISON, Wis. (AP) – Republicans in the Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers after discovering a way to bypass the chamber’s missing Democrats.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker’s so-called “budget repair bill” - a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measures that spend money. But Republicans on Wednesday split from the legislation the proposal to curtail union rights, which spends no money, and a special conference committee of state lawmakers approved the bill a short time later.

Full Story:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WISCONSIN_BUDGET_UNIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-09-19-45-22

They wanted to fuck around and play games… fuck 'em all.[/quote]

Walker is a fucking thug (in a good way.) This is some great news. Fucking pussy ass Dems want to run and hide like spineless jellyfish, fuck them.

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell0307811.php3

an article by the economist Thomas Sowell which I thought illustrated beautifully the problems w/ Unions:

Cliffs Notes: There is no free-lunch. The illusion of free-lunch in the public sector is paid for by the taxpayers.

very good article soccerplayer. thanks for posting.

[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell0307811.php3

an article by the economist Thomas Sowell which I thought illustrated beautifully the problems w/ Unions:

Cliffs Notes: There is no free-lunch. The illusion of free-lunch in the public sector is paid for by the taxpayers.[/quote]

I am a firefighter, and also one of those dirty uncouth public employee union members that seem to be so unpopular these days. I have no pension, but instead have a 401k style retirement program. I have an HSA (health savings account) health insurance that I contribute to at 10% of the premium. We’re in negotiations right now for a new contract that will give us an RHSA (retirement health savings account), no lifetime health benefits. I’ve had pay freezes for three of the last five years. When I leave the employment of my municipality, I will receive exactly ZERO monetary benefit other than that which I’ve accrued during my employment. And for the record, I think that the benefits listed above are fair, and I’m in no way whining about them, just saying that not every public employee is enjoying this mythical “free lunch”.

I’m also one of the elected executive board members of my local, and have been a part of bargaining the last two contracts. All of the above are things that have been achieved through collective bargaining, you know, that process that people are told doesn’t work for public employee’s. The reality is, that collective bargaining works; it’s the fucking politicians that don’t.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell0307811.php3

an article by the economist Thomas Sowell which I thought illustrated beautifully the problems w/ Unions:

Cliffs Notes: There is no free-lunch. The illusion of free-lunch in the public sector is paid for by the taxpayers.[/quote]

I am a firefighter, and also one of those dirty uncouth public employee union members that seem to be so unpopular these days. I have no pension, but instead have a 401k style retirement program. I have an HSA (health savings account) health insurance that I contribute to at 10% of the premium. We’re in negotiations right now for a new contract that will give us an RHSA (retirement health savings account), no lifetime health benefits. I’ve had pay freezes for three of the last five years. When I leave the employment of my municipality, I will receive exactly ZERO monetary benefit other than that which I’ve accrued during my employment. And for the record, I think that the benefits listed above are fair, and I’m in no way whining about them, just saying that not every public employee is enjoying this mythical “free lunch”.

I’m also one of the elected executive board members of my local, and have been a part of bargaining the last two contracts. All of the above are things that have been achieved through collective bargaining, you know, that process that people are told doesn’t work for public employee’s. The reality is, that collective bargaining works; it’s the fucking politicians that don’t. [/quote]

I am sorry to hear about this big man, and I mean that honestly. I think that wages should also be based upon things like responsibility, danger, physical stress, etc. People like you and cops should be among the highest paid.

The problem with collective bargaining is when bullshit like the highest paid public employee in Wisconsin is a bus driver. Yes you heard me right. That makes no sense whatsoever. And his insane salary and pension package is based on collective bargaining.

The people who raped collective bargaining as a whole, are also the ones who fucked you and people like you over. I would have no issue at all seeing that cops and firemen getting their share. My beef is when you have teachers (who literally must commit murder to be fired) are among the highest paid when they perform so poorly. I am sick and tired of seeing cubicle hamsters coming out on top when it’s you guys who get fucked. I really mean that seriously.

bigflamer: as someone whose parents are both public employees I can empathize with your situation.

However, with regards to fairness-- I firmly believe that fairness only comes about through the actions of the market, through supply and demand. Thus jobs which are dangerous and/or require more skill and training would, on average, end up paying more.

Once you remove fairness as something determined by the market and instead make it something decided upon by the government you end up getting the kind of backwards situations that MaximusB and other people have mentioned.

Without the market deciding things you get the kind of perverse situations like the bus driver being the highest paid or the retention of underperforming teachers.

With regards to the free lunch statement I concluded the following: It is a “free-lunch” whenever someone is getting paid more resources than the market would freely allocate. If public sector jobs were not allowed to bargain collectively they would be paid less. Period. Under a free market, if the government were not paying enough, people would simply move to other jobs. However, collective bargaining has as its goal to set wages above the amount set by the market…the taxpayers and the taxpayers alone pay for this increase.

bigflamer, I appreciate the fact that you are a firefighter and make it your living to save peoples lives. However, it is not your place, nor anyone else’s to decide what is fair in terms of compensation-- the market and the market alone is the only unbiased judge.

Edit: added this bit,

Having thought more about the issue…

Currently it has become a situation where you have to collectively bargain if you are a public employee. The government has made it a game where if you don’t play you lose. all of the other employees salaries are inflated so if YOU don’t collectively bargain, you’re hurt…

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell0307811.php3

an article by the economist Thomas Sowell which I thought illustrated beautifully the problems w/ Unions:

Cliffs Notes: There is no free-lunch. The illusion of free-lunch in the public sector is paid for by the taxpayers.[/quote]

I am a firefighter, and also one of those dirty uncouth public employee union members that seem to be so unpopular these days. I have no pension, but instead have a 401k style retirement program. I have an HSA (health savings account) health insurance that I contribute to at 10% of the premium. We’re in negotiations right now for a new contract that will give us an RHSA (retirement health savings account), no lifetime health benefits. I’ve had pay freezes for three of the last five years. When I leave the employment of my municipality, I will receive exactly ZERO monetary benefit other than that which I’ve accrued during my employment. And for the record, I think that the benefits listed above are fair, and I’m in no way whining about them, just saying that not every public employee is enjoying this mythical “free lunch”.

I’m also one of the elected executive board members of my local, and have been a part of bargaining the last two contracts. All of the above are things that have been achieved through collective bargaining, you know, that process that people are told doesn’t work for public employee’s. The reality is, that collective bargaining works; it’s the fucking politicians that don’t. [/quote]

I am sorry to hear about this big man, and I mean that honestly. I think that wages should also be based upon things like responsibility, danger, physical stress, etc. People like you and cops should be among the highest paid.

The problem with collective bargaining is when bullshit like the highest paid public employee in Wisconsin is a bus driver. Yes you heard me right. That makes no sense whatsoever. And his insane salary and pension package is based on collective bargaining.

The people who raped collective bargaining as a whole, are also the ones who fucked you and people like you over. I would have no issue at all seeing that cops and firemen getting their share. My beef is when you have teachers (who literally must commit murder to be fired) are among the highest paid when they perform so poorly. I am sick and tired of seeing cubicle hamsters coming out on top when it’s you guys who get fucked. I really mean that seriously. [/quote]

Right, and that’s what happens all too often. Tax increases of all sorts are tied to public safety, and the residents get threatened with firefighter and police payoff if it isn’t passes. They play on the public’s want of public safety and hold them hostage for it. It’s fucking criminal. Add to that, the fact that most local elected officials just honestly don’t give a fuck about cops and firemen. It’s something I didn’t believe either until I had to deal with them. For instance, a couple of contracts ago, they wanted to be able just wash their hands of any fireman that got injured on the job and couldn’t return to work. I said to them at the negotiating table “what if I’m searching a room in structure fire, the roof comes in and I break my back?” their reply was “oh well”. Most of them just don’t care, about either the firemen or the citizens we protect. Sad fact.

The problem is, a municipality has no concern for profit, and has no worry for loss of “customer”. In this scenario, they have no need for employee retention and don’t feel the need to place value on my work experience. In their world, any schmuck that passes through the academy is “good enough”. Municipalities also will spend freely from the public fund with no care as to why they fight for what they do.

In this contract right now, we (the union) came in with a proposal, our proposal mind you, that we increase what we pay in for health care, move to a more stringent retiree health savings account, and take wage freezes. All of this was proposed on our part due to the hard economic times we’re in. All we wanted in return was to be recognized with rank for the work that we already do (we have engineers functioning as Lt’s, but without the rank). We wanted rank with no pay increases to coincide with it, and in return they would’ve saved the taxpayer’s hundreds of thousands. They flat out turned it down. They said that they were prepared to spend, and I quote “an unlimited amount of money in fighting this”; public money. But I mean, hey, why not? After all, it’s not their money they’re spending, right?

If a private sector union had proposed that deal, it would’ve been a slam dunk win for both parties. Why? because financially it would’ve been a huge win for the company. Public officials have no such emotional attachment to the money they work with; it’s just not theirs so why would they?

Personally, I like the benefits that I receive, and I think that they are fair. However, our union has to fight tooth and nail every contract, just to keep them from getting raped. If it was up to them, they’d fire every last one of us, and replace us with hobby firemen getting no benefits. they’ve told me as much. I involved myself with the union some years ago so that I could hopefully interject some of my own ideas into the process and be what I thought was a common sense and fair union.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell0307811.php3

an article by the economist Thomas Sowell which I thought illustrated beautifully the problems w/ Unions:

Cliffs Notes: There is no free-lunch. The illusion of free-lunch in the public sector is paid for by the taxpayers.[/quote]

I am a firefighter, and also one of those dirty uncouth public employee union members that seem to be so unpopular these days. I have no pension, but instead have a 401k style retirement program. I have an HSA (health savings account) health insurance that I contribute to at 10% of the premium. We’re in negotiations right now for a new contract that will give us an RHSA (retirement health savings account), no lifetime health benefits. I’ve had pay freezes for three of the last five years. When I leave the employment of my municipality, I will receive exactly ZERO monetary benefit other than that which I’ve accrued during my employment. And for the record, I think that the benefits listed above are fair, and I’m in no way whining about them, just saying that not every public employee is enjoying this mythical “free lunch”.

I’m also one of the elected executive board members of my local, and have been a part of bargaining the last two contracts. All of the above are things that have been achieved through collective bargaining, you know, that process that people are told doesn’t work for public employee’s. The reality is, that collective bargaining works; it’s the fucking politicians that don’t. [/quote]

I am sorry to hear about this big man, and I mean that honestly. I think that wages should also be based upon things like responsibility, danger, physical stress, etc. People like you and cops should be among the highest paid.

The problem with collective bargaining is when bullshit like the highest paid public employee in Wisconsin is a bus driver. Yes you heard me right. That makes no sense whatsoever. And his insane salary and pension package is based on collective bargaining.

The people who raped collective bargaining as a whole, are also the ones who fucked you and people like you over. I would have no issue at all seeing that cops and firemen getting their share. My beef is when you have teachers (who literally must commit murder to be fired) are among the highest paid when they perform so poorly. I am sick and tired of seeing cubicle hamsters coming out on top when it’s you guys who get fucked. I really mean that seriously. [/quote]

Right, and that’s what happens all too often. Tax increases of all sorts are tied to public safety, and the residents get threatened with firefighter and police payoff if it isn’t passes. They play on the public’s want of public safety and hold them hostage for it. It’s fucking criminal. Add to that, the fact that most local elected officials just honestly don’t give a fuck about cops and firemen. It’s something I didn’t believe either until I had to deal with them. For instance, a couple of contracts ago, they wanted to be able just wash their hands of any fireman that got injured on the job and couldn’t return to work. I said to them at the negotiating table “what if I’m searching a room in structure fire, the roof comes in and I break my back?” their reply was “oh well”. Most of them just don’t care, about either the firemen or the citizens we protect. Sad fact.

The problem is, a municipality has no concern for profit, and has no worry for loss of “customer”. In this scenario, they have no need for employee retention and don’t feel the need to place value on my work experience. In their world, any schmuck that passes through the academy is “good enough”. Municipalities also will spend freely from the public fund with no care as to why they fight for what they do.

In this contract right now, we (the union) came in with a proposal, our proposal mind you, that we increase what we pay in for health care, move to a more stringent retiree health savings account, and take wage freezes. All of this was proposed on our part due to the hard economic times we’re in. All we wanted in return was to be recognized with rank for the work that we already do (we have engineers functioning as Lt’s, but without the rank). We wanted rank with no pay increases to coincide with it, and in return they would’ve saved the taxpayer’s hundreds of thousands. They flat out turned it down. They said that they were prepared to spend, and I quote “an unlimited amount of money in fighting this”; public money. But I mean, hey, why not? After all, it’s not their money they’re spending, right?

If a private sector union had proposed that deal, it would’ve been a slam dunk win for both parties. Why? because financially it would’ve been a huge win for the company. Public officials have no such emotional attachment to the money they work with; it’s just not theirs so why would they?

Personally, I like the benefits that I receive, and I think that they are fair. However, our union has to fight tooth and nail every contract, just to keep them from getting raped. If it was up to them, they’d fire every last one of us, and replace us with hobby firemen getting no benefits. they’ve told me as much. I involved myself with the union some years ago so that I could hopefully interject some of my own ideas into the process and be what I thought was a common sense and fair union.

[/quote]

that is disgusting behavior on the part of the government…absolutely disgusting

Just when you think they can’t behave any more selfishly…they do something like that

Bigflamer,

This is what our Governor in California is doing right now. He is literally saying this type of shit, and I quote…

“We cannot afford not to increased and/or extend taxes, we will not be able to fund our police/fire/emt personnel. We will be forced to cut those services, and with our upcoming fire season, we cannot let that happen. We cannot afford to take cops off the streets, it will be armageddon…”

The problem is, those groups NEVER get cut. What happens is groups like firemen, cops, and EMT people have their wages stay exactly the same, while cubicle hamsters get raises. They use you and don’t even reward you if they are successful using you. It’s fucking disgusting.

Thought I would bump this back to the top, I’m tired of the religious debates.

Interesting piece on what has taken place since this was passed and what BOTH sides have done.

Also a quote from the end of the artice for those that don’t want to read it.

“On Friday, the state’s Legislative Fiscal Bureau released an analysis saying that the budget repair bill that is scheduled to pass next week with Democratic support will balance the budget, making up a $137 million shortfall. The LFB said the bill works even without the additional contributions from state workers this fiscal year.”

So they have a bill to balance the budget WITHOUT the kick in from the labor side? Gov Walker said without the labor kick in this couldn’t happen (or am I incorrect?).

Not taking labor side here as I pay much more than that for retirement and benefits.

Ohio passed something even more harsh than what WI did.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Bigflamer,

This is what our Governor in California is doing right now. He is literally saying this type of shit, and I quote…

“We cannot afford not to increased and/or extend taxes, we will not be able to fund our police/fire/emt personnel. We will be forced to cut those services, and with our upcoming fire season, we cannot let that happen. We cannot afford to take cops off the streets, it will be armageddon…”

The problem is, those groups NEVER get cut. What happens is groups like firemen, cops, and EMT people have their wages stay exactly the same, while cubicle hamsters get raises. They use you and don’t even reward you if they are successful using you. It’s fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Cubicle hamsters = gov employees working desk jobs, i.e. non-public service (fire/PD/EMT) positions?

How is Cali such a clusterfuck?

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Bigflamer,

This is what our Governor in California is doing right now. He is literally saying this type of shit, and I quote…

“We cannot afford not to increased and/or extend taxes, we will not be able to fund our police/fire/emt personnel. We will be forced to cut those services, and with our upcoming fire season, we cannot let that happen. We cannot afford to take cops off the streets, it will be armageddon…”

The problem is, those groups NEVER get cut. What happens is groups like firemen, cops, and EMT people have their wages stay exactly the same, while cubicle hamsters get raises. They use you and don’t even reward you if they are successful using you. It’s fucking disgusting. [/quote]

Cubicle hamsters = gov employees working desk jobs, i.e. non-public service (fire/PD/EMT) positions?

How is Cali such a clusterfuck?[/quote]

Cubicle Hamsters = DMV, DWP, DOS (Dept of Sanitation), etc. Basically, people who don’t risk their lives the way cops and firemen do. What I was getting at was that I think that cops, fire, and EMT people should be awarded the highest levels of compensation, and the last to be fired or laid off. Notice how Governor Brown (and Arnold did this too) always threaten to lay off cops and firemen, when he could easily lay off non-emergency personnel first? Threaten that the sky is falling, and hope it scares people into doing what you want. Too bad Governor Brown won’t get his tax extension or tax increase.

Ponce, Brown blames Republicans for not letting people vote on tax increases, he claims he is denying voters the Democracy we are allowed as citizens. Why won’t he let us vote on a tax DECREASE then? How about we vote on pension reform for government workers? Also notice how California Republicans didn’t leave the state (the way Wisconsin Dems did to prevent a vote!) At least they have the nuts to stay in the fire.

Dems = want Democracy only when it suits their own interests.