Machine pullovers - preferably hammer strength or avenger plate loaded…
db rows pulling to waist - squeeze the contraction
you can set up on a high cable and use a d handle to pull into your waist as well…again squeeze that area…
t bar rows in the corner(ronnie coleman style) kind of hit that area as well…
arching your back is key to lat engagement imo…
Well I’m working on overall lat size as well mainly with pullup variations and BB rows. But I was kinda just looking for something that would hit the lower lat harder while working on size. I haven’t done T-bar rows for a while so I may throw those in again sometime soon.
And I just looked up what a D handle is, and I’ve done that exercise from the high cable before but not for a while either. I might try that again soon too.
This thread has been incredibly eye opening and has a ton of info, but I seem to have a question!
I really like doing RG BB rows to my belly button. Unfortunately, I have back issues and I think that the rows might bother them.
Will I get a similar benefit to using the HS row machine (not the pulldown hi row) and doing them with a reverse grip? Just wondering if I’ll target the middle/upper back doing that as well.
Right now back days are:
Close grip lat pulldown
Seated rows
Hi Row
RG BB row–>RG Machine rows.
Thanks for any help.
[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
This thread has been incredibly eye opening and has a ton of info, but I seem to have a question!
I really like doing RG BB rows to my belly button. Unfortunately, I have back issues and I think that the rows might bother them.
Will I get a similar benefit to using the HS row machine (not the pulldown hi row) and doing them with a reverse grip? Just wondering if I’ll target the middle/upper back doing that as well.
Right now back days are:
Close grip lat pulldown
Seated rows
Hi Row
RG BB row–>RG Machine rows.
Thanks for any help.
[/quote]
In my eyes, Free weight can never be equated to machines, i just dont see the ability to substitute. You first may want to take a look at your form while BB rowing. Also, give stretching your hamstrings out a shot, as tight hamstrings can cause discomfort in the back. The beneficial factors of a Free BB row is the angle of which you should be, the degree of which the bar is coming up, and the effect that’ll have on your lats.
[quote]KLIM wrote:
Well I’m working on overall lat size as well mainly with pullup variations and BB rows. But I was kinda just looking for something that would hit the lower lat harder while working on size. I haven’t done T-bar rows for a while so I may throw those in again sometime soon.
And I just looked up what a D handle is, and I’ve done that exercise from the high cable before but not for a while either. I might try that again soon too.[/quote]
I’m a firm believer that for width you have to focus on pulls (stretching portion emphasized), and for thickness on rows (contraction, hold emphasized). Other from pulls, the lower lats can be targeted by inverted rows (pendlay style or normal), and I’m also sure you’ll like seated inverted rows leaning forward on the eccentric (this way you’ll feel the stretch in the lower lat area). The concentric portion of the movement that would suit your goal is to explode since the first instant of the concentric phase.
[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
This thread has been incredibly eye opening and has a ton of info, but I seem to have a question!
I really like doing RG BB rows to my belly button. Unfortunately, I have back issues and I think that the rows might bother them.
Will I get a similar benefit to using the HS row machine (not the pulldown hi row) and doing them with a reverse grip? Just wondering if I’ll target the middle/upper back doing that as well.
Right now back days are:
Close grip lat pulldown
Seated rows
Hi Row
RG BB row–>RG Machine rows.
Thanks for any help.
[/quote]
In my eyes, Free weight can never be equated to machines, i just dont see the ability to substitute. You first may want to take a look at your form while BB rowing. Also, give stretching your hamstrings out a shot, as tight hamstrings can cause discomfort in the back. The beneficial factors of a Free BB row is the angle of which you should be, the degree of which the bar is coming up, and the effect that’ll have on your lats. [/quote]
I do think it’s a hamstring flexibility issue as well. I’ve been stretching them out. Guess it’s time to be much more diligent about it.
Thanks!
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[/quote]
I’ve always gotten the general impression that vertical pulls emphasize width and horizontal pulls are for thickness.
What do most people do for width(at least to my knowledge)?
Pullups, Rack Chins, or pulldowns
Thickness?
Kroc Rows, BB rows, seated rows, or HS rows.
Just my thoughts.
That being said, I’m far from the biggest guy here.
<<<-put on 14 pounds since that picture though.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[/quote]
Its my understanding that Wide grip = Width. I mean, you can literally feel it. Put your arms up as if you would be doing lay pulldowns, but with a wide grip. Now perform the movement. If you arent leaning back and are upright, the entirety of the stress is put on your upper and outer back.
So if someone wants to concentrate solely on a wider back, BOOM Lat pulldowns is the movement.
Now what if you want to add mass simultaneously? Once again, the one i understand it, you’re going to get a lot more thickness built through pulling the bar towards yourself. So a movement to get width AND thickness, Pendlay rows probably has my vote as the best; but, wide grip Cable rows could be a great movement as well.
If you want more width coming down the lat, not so much the upper upper back, while still adding thickness, Barbell rows, done to the waist Yates style.
More thickness to the middle back? Close grip cable rows.
IMO, its all about how you pull/where you pull. Wide = width, close= thick. Pulling to your body via the front = thickness, pulling to your body via angles = width. Combinations of these will work cohesively in its effect, though, in my eyes atleast, not as effectively as single area targeting (which could bring rise to the whole compound vs isolation debate).
Each type of movement is important and has a spot in my workouts.
[quote]Akuma01 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[/quote]
Its my understanding that Wide grip = Width. I mean, you can literally feel it. Put your arms up as if you would be doing lay pulldowns, but with a wide grip. Now perform the movement. If you arent leaning back and are upright, the entirety of the stress is put on your upper and outer back.
So if someone wants to concentrate solely on a wider back, BOOM Lat pulldowns is the movement.
Now what if you want to add mass simultaneously? Once again, the one i understand it, you’re going to get a lot more thickness built through pulling the bar towards yourself. So a movement to get width AND thickness, Pendlay rows probably has my vote as the best; but, wide grip Cable rows could be a great movement as well.
If you want more width coming down the lat, not so much the upper upper back, while still adding thickness, Barbell rows, done to the waist Yates style.
More thickness to the middle back? Close grip cable rows.
IMO, its all about how you pull/where you pull. Wide = width, close= thick. Pulling to your body via the front = thickness, pulling to your body via angles = width. Combinations of these will work cohesively in its effect, though, in my eyes atleast, not as effectively as single area targeting (which could bring rise to the whole compound vs isolation debate).
Each type of movement is important and has a spot in my workouts.
[/quote]
I used to think vertical pull was for width (esspeacially with a wide grip) and horizontal was more for thickness.
I think its more complicated than that though. I think the lats give width in the mid back area mostly, they also contribute to upperback width but other muscles are more important there.
Akuma just said pulldowns with a wide grip are more for width up the top of the back. This is because the wide grip actually reduces the contribution of the lats in my opinion and forces the terres to do more work, thats going to make you wider just under the armpit but maybe not make you much wider on the lower lats.
In this thread a lot of guys have suggested close grip might be better at developing the lats for some and this makes sense to me because it is closer to the main action of the lats which is shoulder extension.
Also rowing movements with a close grip and pulling to the waist will involve the lats more.
For thickness I think erectors, rear delts, traps and maybe rhomboids are the players. Deadlift, back extension, b/o barbell rows and any row to the chest/neck are the exercises I would be doing.
[quote]Doyle wrote:
In this thread a lot of guys have suggested close grip might be better at developing the lats for some and this makes sense to me because it is closer to the main action of the lats which is shoulder extension.
Also rowing movements with a close grip and pulling to the waist will involve the lats more.
[/quote]
I’m pretty sure Stu has said that he does neutral close grip for lats if I remember correctly.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[/quote]
I think that’s technique related, really.
Which is why you can have some guy say “bent-over rows for width” and one say “bent-over rows for thickness”.
[quote]KLIM wrote:
Does anybody do any exercises specifically to target the lower part of the lats? I’ve been trying a fairly close underhand grip pulldown for it, but I haven’t seen much for it results wise. So does anybody have any exercices they do for the lower portion of the lats?[/quote]
Any kind of bent over row… I particularly like using the trap bar…like shown in the video… but I don’t go has heavy… focus on getting a good contraction at the top of the movement, and using your back to do the pull not your arms.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Bump.
There’s not a whole lot of discussion here about the “why” of “width” movement vs “thickness” movement.
A couple posters said “I do A for width, B for thickness”, but I’ve read others post the opposite.
So, rather than making a new thread (because there’s some good info here), let’s have a sub-discussion of “width movements” vs “thickness movements” and WHY one works thickness vs width (or vice versa).
[/quote]
I think that’s technique related, really.
Which is why you can have some guy say “bent-over rows for width” and one say “bent-over rows for thickness”.
[/quote]
Its not technique… and really width and thickness are general terms… that describe the overall appearance of the back…
There are many muscles in the back, and you need to train and develope all of them. That means, 3 movements are likely not optimal…
I personally spend no less than 3 hours training my back, and normally I have to split the workout up either hit it twice in one day, or on consecutive days to ensure I hit every single muscle fiber…
From reviewing this thread I have seen a lot of swinging and heaving of weights up.
Thats fine to do to a certain degree (once in a while), however if (the weight is too heavy that)you can’t hold the weight static at the top of your contraction, you are likely not getting full benifit of the movement… power is great, but in bodybuiding you have to incorporate movements that are going to maximize the blood flow to the muscle (the pump)
Minimize the risk of injury and maximize the workload. Train smart.
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
From reviewing this thread I have seen a lot of swinging and heaving of weights up.
Thats fine to do to a certain degree (once in a while), however if (the weight is too heavy that)you can’t hold the weight static at the top of your contraction, you are likely not getting full benifit of the movement… power is great, but in bodybuiding you have to incorporate movements that are going to maximize the blood flow to the muscle (the pump)
Minimize the risk of injury and maximize the workload. Train smart.[/quote]
It’s nice to have your perspective in this forum man…
Edit: took out redundancy.
Bump
How do you guys alter your back training when you have elbow/tendonitis issues?
My back and arms are my weakest points and any time I up the frequency for these areas, my forearms get serious pain about a week in. I can’t seem to get them to grow with once a week frequency and I’ve tried 2-3 times/week for back and C_C’s arm program he recommended to bug in the Gunz thread which had me doing either biceps or triceps each day I was in the gym.
O and if anybody knows that link that Fatty Fat (I believe) posted a while back to deal with pressure points near the elbow, I’d LOVE to find that one again.
Im sure someone said this already but rows are used best when held contracted for a moment.
Im sure someone said this already but rows are used best when held contracted for a moment.