windows of opportunity

Training Bodybuilding
1

i understand that we can take advantage of a prot+carb meal/drink for the first meal of the day(after basically fasting) and again, directly after a workout(body is again primed for reuptake of nutrients but not for the same reasons as when it is in a fasted state. right?).
although i cant competantly compare and contrast all of the reasons why the prot/carb drink work during these 2 windows of opportunity, i can see that it works in the real world of my training.
my question is: does a two-a-day training scedule create an additional window of opportunity and if so what about 3 times a day, or 4, or 5 ?
what i am wondering is what variables have to be in place for the body to take advantage of post workout nutrition in general?
workouts vary greatly in volume, intensity, time, energy consumtion, etc.
so what constitutes a “work out” from a physiological stand point as it relates to post-workout nutrition?
does one have to simply exhaust atp stores/train in an anaerobic environment for x amount of time/do “more work” than one did last time/tons of varibles here but i think you see what i am getting at.
not everyone has the luxury of 2/day workouts, given, (let alone more than that) but if all i have to do is drop for 5(or 3 or 10 this is what i am asking) sets of explosive or 1 arm pushups, do some explosive pistols, go run 10 thirty yard sprints, etc then cant i “create” many new windows of opportunity for post workout nutrition?
so, “what is the bare minimum amount of work, what exactly has to happen, to open the window of opportunity for post workout nutrition”?
does anyone know of studies on this? real world observations? any one care to start experimenting?

this place rules!
looking forward to your responses.

ryan

2

I just know of myself, and I’ve found that after training twice a day I need two post work out drinks.

Have you read “Solving the post work out puzzle?” by John Berardi–just put in a search for it on t-mag if you haven’t.

It’s not going to tell you about excercising twice a day and the effects of that nutrional need wise, but it explains in great detail why P+C are needed directly after working out.

3

yeah, good articles. i pretty much understand all of that. thanks though.

so if all i have to do is deplete some (how much) glycogen stores , increase protein breakdown/get to a negative muscle-protein balance, THEN i can take advantage of post workout nutrition. right?

thats what im looking at: how much of what, do i have to do to induce these variables.

obviously walking a slow walk for 10 minutes isnt going to do it. how about sprints for 10 minutes (you know up and down the office halls at your 15 minute coffee break…)? im guessing its going to be different for every one depending on the training level of the person. right?
but how about a place to start. thats what im looking for.
its seems like this would be a relatively easy test to perform.
i would be very interested in the results.
wouldnt you?

time to eat,
ryan

4

I don’t think theres a measurable line to predict when pw nutrition is needed. Compare it to a dim light in a room: where does the light end and the darkness begin? I don’t think it would be too unreasonable to say that the more you subject your muscles to microtrauma, the greater the need for the pw nutrition. If a person trained up 4 times a day inducing harsh microtrauma every time, it would be highly beneficial to consume that ever important pw meal every time. Compare this to a slow walk in the park where the muscles are hardly traumatized (unless you’re performing this walk Waterbury style).

5

I’m going to start lifting 2x’s a day as recommended in the Mag-10 plan for success for only a week and definitely plan on eating a p+c meal/drink after lifting and then again another hour later with a nice 2-3 hour fuck nap in between workouts. I think I’ll grow nicely maybe even tighten up in the midsection/lower back from all the hip thrusts :slight_smile:

6

Wideguy,

thats exactly my point. perhaps 3 1/2 minutes of aggressive hip thrusts is enough to deplete x amount of glycogen stores needed to open another window.
seriously though guys, if you can increase the number of opportunities that promote an anabolic state…
what does it take? i think this is ultra-important. dont you? im trying to pm some of the “experts” but i dont know if its going through.
until then: 5 sets of 5, clapping pushups and 6 30 yd sprints down to the end of the block and back. this is going to take me about 10 minutes and i will follow it with a p+c then at midnight p+f.

7

all you really want to do is get glut4 translocation going via contraction mediated means. this will bump up the dumping of nutients into your (worked) muscles. if transcription is up to bingo good things will happen.
whatch out for over training tho.
medline search for GLUT-4 should get some good reading on this

8

This gives me a great idea- could mass building cycles be of more benefit if you consistently create more “windows of opportunity”? Basically do Chad Waterburys 100 reps routine split throughout the day and eat P+C after each one. You would constantly be pounding glycogen and aminos into the cells. This is pretty much what a good creatine supplement does but theoretically the window should be far more effective. Hmmmm… good quesions there Ryan. I think you should present this to JB and see what he thinks. I’m betting he’ll have some sort of limiting factor and a maximum number of opportunities within a given time, but it would be good to know.

9

RS,

“constantly pumping aminos etc into the muscles” is exactly what i am getting at. i dont know if 100 ultra light reps will do “it”. what will?

Whetu,
thanks for the heads up im going to search for that info right now.

10

You need to exhaust your glycogen stores before a pw beverage becomes beneficial/necessary. Everyone’s threshold of glycogen storage/exhaustion is different so you can’t put a direct exercise prescription to what constitutes a sufficient amount of work to justify the feeding. That being said, I think for most people some sprints, pistols etc. will not accomplish this. Same goes for the “100 reps” routine. Doing 10 sets of 10 pushups sporadically spread out during the day will not exhaust your glycogen stores. That’s why it is used for recovery and not as a building workout, therefore you don’t need the glycogen replenishment. I think it comes down to personal experience. I can definately ‘feel’ when I need to replenish my glycogen stores after a workout

11

Hi Guys,

Being doing a lot of reading about this as well lately and if you read the article “militant hypertrophy”, “Intolerable” and “temporal nutrition” you’ll see that there are 2 windows of oppurtunity(I even read 3 somewhere) after you workout. So one during/post workout and another around 90 minutes later. How do you tell if you’ve trained hard enough to merit a double whammy like this? Don’t know but would like to. At the moment I’m resigning myself to 2 hard sessions with proper post-workout nutrition, this way at least I know I deserve all those carbs and that they’re mostly being used by my muscles and not for fat.
Regards
BMF

12

BMF,
you are right. there are 2 windows of opportunity. 1 directly after your work out and another about an hour later. still, i am wondering how many of these windows one can open.
I read alot of articles on GLUT-4 and most of them were way above my head or at least i couldnt see much correlation with our discussion here.
anybody know how to get JB’s attention. im sure he, as well as a few others, would have some interesting things to say about this.

train hard,
ryan

13

Good question ryan.

I read a study showing that GLUT-4 translocation as well as VAMP-2 (vehicle assosciated membrane protein) took place after exercising only 10 min. @ 50% Vo2 max, followed by 100%Vo2max to exhaustion (about 6 minutes). Basically only 16 minutes of work, only 6 minutes of it being strenuous.

Am J Physiol. 1996 Jan;270(1 Pt 1):E197-201.

Many studies conclude that “more research needs to be done”. This is a currently emerging area of study, so we may have to make educated assumptions at this point.

Here is a quote from another study, that again doesn’t directly answer your question, but should get you thinking:

“Although the number of GLUT-4 transporters in the sarcolemma increases with exercise, neither insulin or its receptor is involved. After an initial acute phase, which may involve calcium as the activator, a secondary phase of increased insulin sensitivity can last for up to a day after exercise. The mechanism responsible for the increased insulin sensitivity with exercise is unknown. Regular exercise training also increases insulin sensitivity, which can be documented several days after the final bout of exercise, and again the mechanism is unknown.”

FASEB J. 1992 Nov;6(14):3238-44.
Regulation of glucose transport in skeletal muscle.

I’m doing some research on something called 5’-AMP-activated protein kinase, which may hold some answers. The drug metformin that Lonnie Lowery has been studying in the lab works in part through this mediation. Maybe he could shed some more light on the subject.

As BMF stated, I covered this topic breifly in “Militant Hypertrophy” Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

As I said, at this point only assumptions can be made. Mine is that you could probably cause exercise induced GLUT-4 extracellular transcription 2, 3 or maybe even 4 times per day, with sessions lasting as little as 15-20 minutes in length. The next question you have to ask, is would 3 or 4 sessions be more effective than 2 sessions for the sake of glycogen/protein synthesis? Keep in mind that studies have shown increased glucose uptake for 3-6 days after only 1 bout of exercise in trained individuals…don’t make me get the reference…but see my point?

Hope that helped.

14

Marc,
thank you very much.

i see what you are getting at with the response issues and obtainable results far after the initial workout.

still, im going to keep doing these small workouts while i have the luxury. they are definitely having a great effect on my general sense of well being and attitude in general. also i might be opening some more windows as well. my typical routine is:

a circuit of
pistols 3 each leg,
clapping push ups x5,
pullups/chins x6,
i go through this 3 times
then do some 70-90% sprint work. usually 4-10 30-60yd sprints.

im then jogging back home about 1/2 a mile. it takes about 15-20minutes in all.

ive been doing this for 4 days,3-4 times a day. i have only gotten sore if i really go for it on the sprints. i then just adjust my next workout to less intense sprints and more jogging(to loosen up).

i have made a noticeable improvement in core strength (i consider myself strong in that area anyway). i can really feel the difference in the distance i can maintain high intensity sprint form.

hopefully this is giving me more opportunities for post workout nutrition.

thanks again marc and everyone else for your thoughts and information.

ryan

15

Bump… I can do 2 adays sometimes (gym class in high school), although the program I’m using (Training for Maximal Size) doesn’t say to, so I don’t.

However, if I chose to utilize gym class for HIIT and “Abs for Athletes and Babehounds”, that could constitute a reason for a (smaller) PWO drink.

I know 2 adays = proper PWO for both, but how about 4adays? 6adays? Where does it end? I would love to hear more on this.