I can’t believe kilpaba restarted this fucking thread.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I have no respect for little queens who are weak and have never competed who choose to spend their time trolling message boards and bashing other lifters. ( I am not referring to you kilpaba )[/quote]
I’m quoting this part but agree with the entire quote.
Like Frankjl, I compete geared (single ply) but train mostly raw because my body won’t tolerate on-going training in gear. It burns me out. I don’t think it’s harder though. I just think it has different aspects of consideration. When I squat in gear, my shoulders and upper back almost always kill me because of the load but when I squat raw, my hips take a shit kicking.
Perhaps I’m biased but I’ve also never heard equipped lifters condescend to unequipped lifters and get tired of seeing equipped lifters continually justifying their choice in sport. It’s also been my observation that the people who cry the loudest about things like equipment and/or form are most often the least experienced and weakest and use these as a justification for not being all that great.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I will say I think a lot of guys on this thread are ignoring the very real condescension a lot of geared lifters (at least on the internet) have for raw lifters.
[/quote]
It’s been my experience that the opposite is true. A quick download of the latest e-book and you’re an expert in powerlifting. Someone whose opinion carries weight amongst internet forums. You are ready and able to quote your author of choice should you ever find yourself in an epic battle with someone who disagrees with you. You are now allowed to criticize other seasoned lifters (despite never having actually competed yourself) because you disapprove of their decision to use supportive equipment. I am not referring to you, but instead the “raw zealot” syndrome that has taken over the internet.
For the record, I’ve never seen a geared lifter start a “why WOULDN’T YOU want to use gear” thread on a message board forum.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Just take an objective look at a lot of the comments just on this thread alone (“geared is the next progression”,“gear is way harder”, “raw is easy”, etc.).
[/quote]
The gear adds many more variables to your training, your nutrition, your setup and the execution of your lifts. I can train heavy and raw much more frequently than I can train heavy in my gear. I have to keep my weight in check at all times or my gear won’t work right. Geared lifting is very very difficult. The margin for error is almost zero. Much harder (in my opinion) that raw lifting. When I say that, keep in mind that I have competed raw and geared, and do much of my training raw. So when I say “gear is harder”, it’s not condescending. I’m not bad mouthing raw lifters. I’m stating something I believe to be true based on my own personal experiences.
All of the geared lifters that I know (and I know a ton) got their start in raw powerlifting. Who do you know that ever started their endeavor into the sport of powerlifting by buying a bunch of gear before actually competing? I don’t know of a single one. That’s the context in which I said ‘geared is the next progression’. It’s not a condescending thing at all. Once again, it’s something that I have observed to be true.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Even some of the guys I know who lift in gear act like raw 800lbs squats (think Pat Mendez recently) are really blase, because they “can do that” despite never having done it without gear. I almost slapped one of them who admittedly is strong as shit having squatted about 950 in gear when he said “yeah that’s pretty good, but he had to grind it” when I showed him the Pat Mendez squat. Like he was somehow the superior squatter because he had hit 950 in multiply. Is he representative of the whole of geared lifting? Absolutely not. Is he representative of a lot of geared lifters? Yes he is. The latter group is the one that seem to piss a lot of raw guys off.[/quote]
Well, I can’t speak for your friends. An 800lb raw squat and a 900+ geared squat are both insane. Strong is strong. Gear or no gear. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to display STRENGTH regardless of their use of supportive equipment.
I have no respect for little queens who are weak and have never competed who choose to spend their time trolling message boards and bashing other lifters. ( I am not referring to you kilpaba )[/quote]
All reasonable statements and I agree with you on basically everything. Just pointing out you can understand how a raw lifter could interpret a lot of these comments as condescending. The reality is geared lifting IS far more technical and demanding in the sense you have many more variables to keep an eye on and contend with.
Probably should have let the thread lie, but it has been something sticking in my craw for a while. Reading stuff like Louie Simmons bag on raw deep Oly squatters as weak have annoyed me for years. Not that I hate geared lifting just wish people would appreciate the distinction more, stop the number inflation (just saying “I squatted XXX” w no qualification on gear) and ultimately protect the old timers records. If you look at Olympic weightlifting where gear has basically not advanced, world records hardly ever get broken and I like that fact personally. It means when it really happens you know whats up and that guy is truly the greatest ever or as close as can possibly be controlled for (obviously increases in nutrition, recovery are impossible to control for).
So yeah, sorry I shouldn’t have dug this thing back up, but it is officially off my chest now. Stay strong my friends (in most interesting man voice).
[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Perhaps I’m biased but I’ve also never heard equipped lifters condescend to unequipped lifters and get tired of seeing equipped lifters continually justifying their choice in sport. It’s also been my observation that the people who cry the loudest about things like equipment and/or form are most often the least experienced and weakest and use these as a justification for not being all that great.[/quote]
I’ll speak to this a bit. To be completely honest, I am one of those “raw zealots”. frankjl didn’t have to coin that phrase either, it’s tossed around quite a bit; and there’s a reason for that! A lot of people who share my ideals on raw lifting are obnoxiously vocal and sometimes downright condescending about it. That annoys me as much as it probably annoys a geared lifter. In fact this whole thread pisses me off.
Anyway, it’s true that geared lifters usually don’t comment on raw lifters or disparage them for their choice not to use gear or whatever. So at face value the stupid bickering does appear one sided. However there are little things that some geared lifters do that sort of get under my skin… For example at my home gym, there is a gym record board with powerlifting meet results on it. There’s a sign above the board saying “No ‘raw’, ‘single ply’, or ‘multiply’. Numbers are numbers.”. Obviously the sign was made by a multiply lifter, and all the records on the board are from multiply lifters. Am I a butthurt weakling? I dunno maybe, but still, I don’t think the saying “numbers are numbers” is even remotely true in powerlifting.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Perhaps I’m biased but I’ve also never heard equipped lifters condescend to unequipped lifters and get tired of seeing equipped lifters continually justifying their choice in sport. It’s also been my observation that the people who cry the loudest about things like equipment and/or form are most often the least experienced and weakest and use these as a justification for not being all that great.[/quote]
I’ll speak to this a bit. To be completely honest, I am one of those “raw zealots”. frankjl didn’t have to coin that phrase either, it’s tossed around quite a bit; and there’s a reason for that! A lot of people who share my ideals on raw lifting are obnoxiously vocal and sometimes downright condescending about it. That annoys me as much as it probably annoys a geared lifter. In fact this whole thread pisses me off.
Anyway, it’s true that geared lifters usually don’t comment on raw lifters or disparage them for their choice not to use gear or whatever. So at face value the stupid bickering does appear one sided. However there are little things that some geared lifters do that sort of get under my skin… For example at my home gym, there is a gym record board with powerlifting meet results on it. There’s a sign above the board saying “No ‘raw’, ‘single ply’, or ‘multiply’. Numbers are numbers.”. Obviously the sign was made by a multiply lifter, and all the records on the board are from multiply lifters. Am I a butthurt weakling? I dunno maybe, but still, I don’t think the saying “numbers are numbers” is even remotely true in powerlifting.[/quote]
I can see your point. I just look at numbers in my own fed and they say equipped or unequipped and qualification standards vary depending on whether you are equipped or not. This is IPF though so we are super anal about standards and record keeping.
tbh, I don’t discuss my numbers with anyone outside of the lifting community because no one really knows what they mean and the fact that I’m a lighter woman means my numbers, regardless of gear, never look super awesome.
[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
tbh, I don’t discuss my numbers with anyone outside of the lifting community because no one really knows what they mean and the fact that I’m a lighter woman means my numbers, regardless of gear, never look super awesome.
[/quote]
Well I think your numbers are awesome! I seem to remember you kicking my ass in a deadlift contest normalized by weight lol.
Could someone put this thread to sleep?
ok look its simple…
If one lifts raw, great…its clean and simple. You did it fair and square.
If one does gear lifting, great, its done with some advantages just like others did, so fair and square.
Dont one hate the other…they are different. Everyone knows it. Thus the 2 different competition rules.
Just everyone be happy for everyone else. Use it or dont…Thats life
hugs and kisses all around
Well said stevie.
In the end, it doesn’t matter because everyone know olympic lifters are the strongest of the bunch.
Troll point +5
[quote]Abedd Ame wrote:
Well said stevie.
In the end, it doesn’t matter because everyone know olympic lifters are the strongest of the bunch.[/quote]
Pretty sure crossfitters are the strongest.
I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw this thread on the front page… again. I was like, no, it can’t be the same thr… yep. it is.
That being said, much better discussion this time around (minus bigred’s interjection).
once again…crossfitters are better at something…olympic at others…powerlifters at others…etc…
I have always changed my goals often to be versatile…I played a lot of sports…highschool wrestling, basketball, soccer and basketball, downhill skiing,college basketball and football and then semi pro football and some farm league baseball…but after all that??? its just weights, pick ups sports and running or biking.
I know some of you are dead set on being the best power lifter, body builder, olympic lifter etc…I always wanted to be athletic first, very fast and mobile and yet strong for my body weight,thus my constant changing goals. this way I can do a little of everything.
But there is something to be said for the person who specializes…Since I am a classical pianist, that is my specialty. I sort of get jealous of the various lifters who are great at one thing.
But there are a few things I think I am really good at…I can do ab rollers from my toes very well. 20 reps or more. I can do a lot of dips with body weight or with weight. I did really well at pullups last year (435 in 30 min) and I clean and press pretty well…around 200. So I just have to be happy being more of an all around medium lifter while most of you guys go crazy squatting a ton and deadlifting the world.
Theres two trains of thought here, some people think that geared lifting is the equivelant of useing batting gloves. but that is bull shit, bating gloves dont allow you to hit the ball harder, they do help the grip, like chalk. the other one is that it makes guys who lift raw look not as good because they are lifting less.
Its your choice. You have to sleep at night knowing you had assistants lifting the weight up, or steroids/ gear what ever the fuck it is. I dont give a fuck. If your only in it to win thats fine. But for me its more of a battle between the barbell and the mucles/nervous system that god gave me. I rather fail at growing stronger/ or bigger then use assistants such as steroids or gear. Thats not to say people with gear dont work hard, they definately work hard.
But how cool would it be if everyone was like me, then we could see who actually is the strongest, or is actually the biggest, with out cheating. Simply with what god gave us. but this isnt a perfect world, so that will never happen, so when I look at a powerifter with gear lifting 1000 pounds, I say ehh thats cool, he works hard, but could he do it raw, and is he on steroids? or when I see ronnie Colman I think man hes awsome but he probably couldnt get that big with out steroids. The game is tainted. And these people are takeing away from a guy that did the best a person could naturally. The guy who cheated will be remembered, the guy who didnt will probably be forgotton. This is just my thoughts. Sorry if I offend.
i just want this thread to go away forever.
[quote]pats18 wrote:
But how cool would it be if everyone was like me[/quote]
How cool indeed.
[quote]pats18 wrote:
The game is tainted. [/quote]
what’s wrong with steroids, if the guy you are competing with took it, why don’t you?