Why Doesn't God Communicate With Us Anymore?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I also have to admit that I hold a certain degree of resentment at the judgment I perceive them directing at me. I mean these people HONESTLY BELIEVE that I DESERVE to spend an eternity in “hell”. [/quote]

I am curious why you care what they think, since you are secure in your beliefs.

Christians routinely approach me (an overtly Orthodox Jewish man – beard, kippah, boring clothing choices) and seek to save my soul. I take it as it is meant — selfless personal concern for my eternal well-being. Annoying, perhaps, but it speaks well of them that they are worried about someone they don’t know.

Similarly, I routinely encouter hostility from muslims whose religion teaches that I am evil, unclean, and liable to transform into a pig or ape at any given time. They are overtly mad that I don’t embrace their religion and call me (which I was called Thursday across a busy street just as I walked along — “murderer of the prophets.”). Other than making sure my GLOCK was where I needed it, theologically, they are of no concern to me.

Seriously, I do wonder why do you care what they think?

82

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I don’t know; I’ve met lots of people who claim that God does communicate / has communicated with them. And I’m not talking about the schizophrenics I used to be a counselor for, either.

Maybe God only communicates with some people. I certainly am not one of them.

If my hypothesis is correct, though, it seems awfully damned reasonable that he’d not communicate with those of you who are so derisive towards others’ beliefs. Hell, I know I’D avoid you pretty much at all cost.

[/quote]

Well, I agree and disagree with your conclusion and without adding my personal belief, I’ll simply state that if I have at any time had an open heart while seeking the truth, why do I not have the answer as to which religious doctrine, if any, is the truth? Christian? Jew? Muslim? Which one?
For what it’s worth, he has never communicated directly with me in any manner I could distinguish as different from any other natural experience. That said, I would never have the hubris to demand that he do so, nor the audacity to require he fit into the mold of my limited conception.

Do I believe he does still communicate, with me, you and even the bodyguard? You betcha.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, we get into the realm of total subjectivity (or, if you prefer, since this is the internet, perfect objectivity, in which I am Absolutely correct and all others whose beliefs deviate one iota from my own are wrong), but:

The important thing is that you KEEP your heart open, and you do not demand answers, or adherence to a time frame, or even comprehension. It’s that latter word, I think, that gets most of us, as we are such egotists by nature (no personal attacks, sincerely, I am probably almost as egotistical as you are).

If you truly ask, he does answer. If you request with an honest, selfless heart, you will receive what you ask for. Thing is, most of us have so much trouble separating that kernel of truth from the chaff of our natural inclinations, desires, egotism, peer, familial and media influence and all of the other temptations, competitors and distractions we are bombarded with in our everyday lives.
[/quote]

Well, this is a thoughtful answer but I disagree with your conclusion. I was baptized a Catholic. I used to attend church only with my grandparents. Frankly, I found the Catholic chuch, with its stained glass, saints and such to be spooky. Mom remarried a jew. Spent some early time in Saturday school where I learned the basics. We didn’t celebrate Christmas, we had the other thing, but we weren’t synagogue going Jews so to speak. Fast forward to my adulthood. There was even a period I considered myself “saved”. The point is not to give you my personal historical account, but to illustrate to you that I have been exposed to 3 major religions and I hold no bias or influence one way or the other. No one that influenced me was overtly religious.

I’ve always been an introspective deep thinker, even at a young age. I have no natural inclinations, desires, ego or any other influence when it comes to my personal search for truth. I fancy myself a philalethian at heart - a truth seeker, and I hold no attachment to the outcome of the discovery of a truth, especially about God. I seek the truth of everything, even something as trivial to you as the breeding of my prized bloodline of dogs.

I HAVE an open heart and it’s exactly why I cannot dismiss Islam at the expense of Christianity and so forth. I cannot abandon all intellectual reason when I examine the claims of various religions and I cannot blindly turn my eye to the common theme and outright plagiarism of and by modern religions from those or earlier civilizations, staring with such startling revelations that the “Christ” and resurrection, right down to the 3 days, is NOT an original story to Christianity! I’m not trying to raise a talking point for specific debate about the foregoing, but to only illustrate my point about common themes and plagiarism.

And I cannot put my “faith” into the words written by any man. And thus my question - IF God ever communicated with man as claimed (national and personal revelation), why has he stopped? We do have dogmatic believers here and I have not heard one satisfactory answer although I would expect a self-serving scriptural quote to the effect that He will not return again until the end times or something to that effect.

My question is really simple, and has nothing to do with my personal bias, if any. In fact, if anyone here could prove to me the truth of a religion, I’d happily accept it. But again, the claim is that at one time, God spoke with man, and then incarnated thru a man and performed miracles. And then God never spoke again, unless we want to include the claims of Muhammad - and we can consider that a valid claim too for arguments sake. Heck, we can even include the claims of Joseph Smith. But the point remains, at one time, God spoke with us directly…what happened?
[/quote]

“Tetelestai.”

[quote]

I do agree with your comment about “kernel of truth” and as far as I’m concerned, all religions share a “kernel of truth” and those “kernels” are not the intellectual or divine property of any one religion and appear to have been with us since civilization. And perhaps therein is the true word of “God”. And perhaps he does speak to us directly if it is He that resides in that part of each of us that is intrinsically good. [/quote]

Again I speak sincerely, and please do not take my terse post as any indication of dismissiveness. My question to you, and I don’t ask it in the hope of receiving an answer, even, is this: You have clearly spent a lot time seeking the truth, but, did you ever ask to be shown?

83

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I don’t know; I’ve met lots of people who claim that God does communicate / has communicated with them. And I’m not talking about the schizophrenics I used to be a counselor for, either.

Maybe God only communicates with some people. I certainly am not one of them.

If my hypothesis is correct, though, it seems awfully damned reasonable that he’d not communicate with those of you who are so derisive towards others’ beliefs. Hell, I know I’D avoid you pretty much at all cost.

[/quote]

Well, I agree and disagree with your conclusion and without adding my personal belief, I’ll simply state that if I have at any time had an open heart while seeking the truth, why do I not have the answer as to which religious doctrine, if any, is the truth? Christian? Jew? Muslim? Which one?
For what it’s worth, he has never communicated directly with me in any manner I could distinguish as different from any other natural experience. That said, I would never have the hubris to demand that he do so, nor the audacity to require he fit into the mold of my limited conception.

Do I believe he does still communicate, with me, you and even the bodyguard? You betcha.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, we get into the realm of total subjectivity (or, if you prefer, since this is the internet, perfect objectivity, in which I am Absolutely correct and all others whose beliefs deviate one iota from my own are wrong), but:

The important thing is that you KEEP your heart open, and you do not demand answers, or adherence to a time frame, or even comprehension. It’s that latter word, I think, that gets most of us, as we are such egotists by nature (no personal attacks, sincerely, I am probably almost as egotistical as you are).

If you truly ask, he does answer. If you request with an honest, selfless heart, you will receive what you ask for. Thing is, most of us have so much trouble separating that kernel of truth from the chaff of our natural inclinations, desires, egotism, peer, familial and media influence and all of the other temptations, competitors and distractions we are bombarded with in our everyday lives.
[/quote]

Well, this is a thoughtful answer but I disagree with your conclusion. I was baptized a Catholic. I used to attend church only with my grandparents. Frankly, I found the Catholic chuch, with its stained glass, saints and such to be spooky. Mom remarried a jew. Spent some early time in Saturday school where I learned the basics. We didn’t celebrate Christmas, we had the other thing, but we weren’t synagogue going Jews so to speak. Fast forward to my adulthood. There was even a period I considered myself “saved”. The point is not to give you my personal historical account, but to illustrate to you that I have been exposed to 3 major religions and I hold no bias or influence one way or the other. No one that influenced me was overtly religious.

I’ve always been an introspective deep thinker, even at a young age. I have no natural inclinations, desires, ego or any other influence when it comes to my personal search for truth. I fancy myself a philalethian at heart - a truth seeker, and I hold no attachment to the outcome of the discovery of a truth, especially about God. I seek the truth of everything, even something as trivial to you as the breeding of my prized bloodline of dogs.

I HAVE an open heart and it’s exactly why I cannot dismiss Islam at the expense of Christianity and so forth. I cannot abandon all intellectual reason when I examine the claims of various religions and I cannot blindly turn my eye to the common theme and outright plagiarism of and by modern religions from those or earlier civilizations, staring with such startling revelations that the “Christ” and resurrection, right down to the 3 days, is NOT an original story to Christianity! I’m not trying to raise a talking point for specific debate about the foregoing, but to only illustrate my point about common themes and plagiarism.

And I cannot put my “faith” into the words written by any man. And thus my question - IF God ever communicated with man as claimed (national and personal revelation), why has he stopped? We do have dogmatic believers here and I have not heard one satisfactory answer although I would expect a self-serving scriptural quote to the effect that He will not return again until the end times or something to that effect.

My question is really simple, and has nothing to do with my personal bias, if any. In fact, if anyone here could prove to me the truth of a religion, I’d happily accept it. But again, the claim is that at one time, God spoke with man, and then incarnated thru a man and performed miracles. And then God never spoke again, unless we want to include the claims of Muhammad - and we can consider that a valid claim too for arguments sake. Heck, we can even include the claims of Joseph Smith. But the point remains, at one time, God spoke with us directly…what happened?
[/quote]

“Tetelestai.”

[quote]

I do agree with your comment about “kernel of truth” and as far as I’m concerned, all religions share a “kernel of truth” and those “kernels” are not the intellectual or divine property of any one religion and appear to have been with us since civilization. And perhaps therein is the true word of “God”. And perhaps he does speak to us directly if it is He that resides in that part of each of us that is intrinsically good. [/quote]

Again I speak sincerely, and please do not take my terse post as any indication of dismissiveness. My question to you, and I don’t ask it in the hope of receiving an answer, even, is this: You have clearly spent a lot time seeking the truth, but, did you ever ask to be shown? [/quote]

Yes.

And who’s to say I don’t have it? You’re not intending to be presumptuou are you? But I do understand how you might get that impression since I’m trying to pose these questions without making my own conclusions.

84

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I also have to admit that I hold a certain degree of resentment at the judgment I perceive them directing at me. I mean these people HONESTLY BELIEVE that I DESERVE to spend an eternity in “hell”. [/quote]

I am curious why you care what they think, since you are secure in your beliefs.

Christians routinely approach me (an overtly Orthodox Jewish man – beard, kippah, boring clothing choices) and seek to save my soul. I take it as it is meant — selfless personal concern for my eternal well-being. Annoying, perhaps, but it speaks well of them that they are worried about someone they don’t know.

Similarly, I routinely encouter hostility from muslims whose religion teaches that I am evil, unclean, and liable to transform into a pig or ape at any given time. They are overtly mad that I don’t embrace their religion and call me (which I was called Thursday across a busy street just as I walked along — “murderer of the prophets.”). Other than making sure my GLOCK was where I needed it, theologically, they are of no concern to me.

Seriously, I do wonder why do you care what they think?[/quote]

I care about what they think and find it offensive for the same reasons I would imagine that YOU, as a Jew, would find the thoughts, opinions and words/actions of a self proclaimed Nazi or Neo-Nazi. If history has taught us anything, it has taught us that PEOPLE CAN BE TWISTED by religion. It has been the excuse for persecution and genocide for thousands of years. The ONLY thing that stands between them persecuting me is the rule of law. Far fetched you say? Less than twenty years ago and WELL within my adult memory we had genocide/systematic rape in Europe between Christians and Muslims. Neighbors killing/raping neighbors. All in the name of religion. Look at Germany in the 30’s and 40’s. What happened? A charismatic leader with a FUCKED UP idea brainwashed an ENTIRE COUNTRY into assisting with the persecution/genocide of your people.

If these religious nuts gained enough power (and if you follow American politics, you know that almost HALF of our country is heavily influenced by this retarded way of thinking). Why would they NOT persecute me? “W.” already set stem cell research back my a decade due to his beliefs. And you ask me “why do I care?”

History has taught me that I NEED to care, because these people are fucking insane and would try to kill me and/or my family for holding a different belief than they do if they are given half a chance.

85

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I also have to admit that I hold a certain degree of resentment at the judgment I perceive them directing at me. I mean these people HONESTLY BELIEVE that I DESERVE to spend an eternity in “hell”. [/quote]

I am curious why you care what they think, since you are secure in your beliefs.

Christians routinely approach me (an overtly Orthodox Jewish man – beard, kippah, boring clothing choices) and seek to save my soul. I take it as it is meant — selfless personal concern for my eternal well-being. Annoying, perhaps, but it speaks well of them that they are worried about someone they don’t know.

Similarly, I routinely encouter hostility from muslims whose religion teaches that I am evil, unclean, and liable to transform into a pig or ape at any given time. They are overtly mad that I don’t embrace their religion and call me (which I was called Thursday across a busy street just as I walked along — “murderer of the prophets.”). Other than making sure my GLOCK was where I needed it, theologically, they are of no concern to me.

Seriously, I do wonder why do you care what they think?[/quote]

I care about what they think and find it offensive for the same reasons I would imagine that YOU, as a Jew, would find the thoughts, opinions and words/actions of a self proclaimed Nazi or Neo-Nazi. If history has taught us anything, it has taught us that PEOPLE CAN BE TWISTED by religion. It has been the excuse for persecution and genocide for thousands of years. The ONLY thing that stands between them persecuting me is the rule of law. Far fetched you say? Less than twenty years ago and WELL within my adult memory we had genocide/systematic rape in Europe between Christians and Muslims. Neighbors killing/raping neighbors. All in the name of religion. Look at Germany in the 30’s and 40’s. What happened? A charismatic leader with a FUCKED UP idea brainwashed an ENTIRE COUNTRY into assisting with the persecution/genocide of your people.

If these religious nuts gained enough power (and if you follow American politics, you know that almost HALF of our country is heavily influenced by this retarded way of thinking). Why would they NOT persecute me? “W.” already set stem cell research back my a decade due to his beliefs. And you ask me “why do I care?”

History has taught me that I NEED to care, because these people are fucking insane and would try to kill me and/or my family for holding a different belief than they do if they are given half a chance.[/quote]

I suppose.

I’ve never noticed the Baptists chopping anyone’s heads off or stoning women.

Most serious Protestant Christians (which is what you talk about) I have met are very good people, and while they have strong opinions regarding religion, would not seek to enforce religion on others by means of state action, as the very basic tenant of their religion is that following has to be a free personal choice.

There are certainly exceptions — Mike Huckabee comes to mind. The man is creepy.

But they are exceptions, not the rule.

(Of topic, but regarding Bush — your information is actualy incorrect. All he did was stop federal funding of new fetal stem cell lines. Private money is free to chase tha

86

Please tell me how many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

edit - sorry, I did not see Jewbacca’s post. But still please answer my question. Find a single soul saved through ESC.

[quote]angry chicken wrote: … If these religious nuts gained enough power (and if you follow American politics, you know that almost HALF of our country is heavily influenced by this retarded way of thinking). Why would they NOT persecute me? “W.” already set stem cell research back my a decade due to his beliefs. And you ask me “why do I care?”
…[/quote]

87

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I also have to admit that I hold a certain degree of resentment at the judgment I perceive them directing at me. I mean these people HONESTLY BELIEVE that I DESERVE to spend an eternity in “hell”. [/quote]

That’s the craziest part of it all for me… People actually want to believe that you will spend an eternity suffering for not accepting their beliefs… What a fragile ego… It’s fucking disgusting.

One thing I know about my own religion is you can accept my philosophies or not and it does not effect me. They are so strong that I do not need the reinforcement of others to believe in them. My ego is fucking bulletproof baby.

88

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

edit - sorry, I did not see Jewbacca’s post. But still please answer my question. Find a single soul saved through ESC.

[quote]angry chicken wrote: … If these religious nuts gained enough power (and if you follow American politics, you know that almost HALF of our country is heavily influenced by this retarded way of thinking). Why would they NOT persecute me? “W.” already set stem cell research back my a decade due to his beliefs. And you ask me “why do I care?”
…[/quote]
[/quote]

What part about stem cell RESEARCH did you fail to comprehend? I spent A LOT of time when I was an electrician working on the NIH campus in Bethesda, MD. I interacted regularly with various doctors and spent a total of about two years there. I met and developed social relationships with MANY of the Doctors and Scientists who work there. According to THEM (my friends), not the MEDIA or the internet or any other second hand source, they had research that was just SITTING there, frozen in a cryo freezer, just WAITING because of the policies enacted by “W.”.

89

You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Please tell me how many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

edit - sorry, I did not see Jewbacca’s post. But still please answer my question. Find a single soul saved through ESC.

[quote]angry chicken wrote: … If these religious nuts gained enough power (and if you follow American politics, you know that almost HALF of our country is heavily influenced by this retarded way of thinking). Why would they NOT persecute me? “W.” already set stem cell research back my a decade due to his beliefs. And you ask me “why do I care?”
…[/quote]
[/quote]

What part about stem cell RESEARCH did you fail to comprehend? I spent A LOT of time when I was an electrician working on the NIH campus in Bethesda, MD. I interacted regularly with various doctors and spent a total of about two years there. I met and developed social relationships with MANY of the Doctors and Scientists who work there. According to THEM (my friends), not the MEDIA or the internet or any other second hand source, they had research that was just SITTING there, frozen in a cryo freezer, just WAITING because of the policies enacted by “W.”.[/quote]

90

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I also have to admit that I hold a certain degree of resentment at the judgment I perceive them directing at me. I mean these people HONESTLY BELIEVE that I DESERVE to spend an eternity in “hell”. [/quote]

That’s the craziest part of it all for me… People actually want to believe that you will spend an eternity suffering for not accepting their beliefs… What a fragile ego… It’s fucking disgusting.
.
[/quote]

I couldn’t agree with you more. But is it fragile egos? Or a master business plan?
Keep a flock in fear that they might spend time in hell.
Then convince said flock that they might not go to hell, or at least spend a minimal time there, IF they remain obedient and dependent. Then further convince fear-struck flock that this is the only place that offers the only protection…all other beliefs are imposters.

So, actually it’s both. A master business plan to those who contrive this belief system that caters to fragile egos. But take heart, some people DO outgrow that shit. Sadly, some don’t.

91

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Yes. What exactly is your point here? That we are far along in our understanding of the universe? Great. It does nothing to alter or refute my point, which is that, without those stupid religions, we’d be farther.[/quote]

You mean we would be farther without the math and astrology that was developed for religious reasons?

We would be farther if the works of the Romans and the Greeks had not been preserved in the monasteries?

Would we be farther without Roman law and it religious underpinnings?

Without the construction methods that were develpoped to build religious buildings?

Without philosophy that was for a long time inseparable from religion both in the East and the West?

92

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I don’t know; I’ve met lots of people who claim that God does communicate / has communicated with them. And I’m not talking about the schizophrenics I used to be a counselor for, either.

Maybe God only communicates with some people. I certainly am not one of them.

If my hypothesis is correct, though, it seems awfully damned reasonable that he’d not communicate with those of you who are so derisive towards others’ beliefs. Hell, I know I’D avoid you pretty much at all cost.

[/quote]

Well, I agree and disagree with your conclusion and without adding my personal belief, I’ll simply state that if I have at any time had an open heart while seeking the truth, why do I not have the answer as to which religious doctrine, if any, is the truth? Christian? Jew? Muslim? Which one?
For what it’s worth, he has never communicated directly with me in any manner I could distinguish as different from any other natural experience. That said, I would never have the hubris to demand that he do so, nor the audacity to require he fit into the mold of my limited conception.

Do I believe he does still communicate, with me, you and even the bodyguard? You betcha.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, we get into the realm of total subjectivity (or, if you prefer, since this is the internet, perfect objectivity, in which I am Absolutely correct and all others whose beliefs deviate one iota from my own are wrong), but:

The important thing is that you KEEP your heart open, and you do not demand answers, or adherence to a time frame, or even comprehension. It’s that latter word, I think, that gets most of us, as we are such egotists by nature (no personal attacks, sincerely, I am probably almost as egotistical as you are).

If you truly ask, he does answer. If you request with an honest, selfless heart, you will receive what you ask for. Thing is, most of us have so much trouble separating that kernel of truth from the chaff of our natural inclinations, desires, egotism, peer, familial and media influence and all of the other temptations, competitors and distractions we are bombarded with in our everyday lives.
[/quote]

Well, this is a thoughtful answer but I disagree with your conclusion. I was baptized a Catholic. I used to attend church only with my grandparents. Frankly, I found the Catholic chuch, with its stained glass, saints and such to be spooky. Mom remarried a jew. Spent some early time in Saturday school where I learned the basics. We didn’t celebrate Christmas, we had the other thing, but we weren’t synagogue going Jews so to speak. Fast forward to my adulthood. There was even a period I considered myself “saved”. The point is not to give you my personal historical account, but to illustrate to you that I have been exposed to 3 major religions and I hold no bias or influence one way or the other. No one that influenced me was overtly religious.

I’ve always been an introspective deep thinker, even at a young age. I have no natural inclinations, desires, ego or any other influence when it comes to my personal search for truth. I fancy myself a philalethian at heart - a truth seeker, and I hold no attachment to the outcome of the discovery of a truth, especially about God. I seek the truth of everything, even something as trivial to you as the breeding of my prized bloodline of dogs.

I HAVE an open heart and it’s exactly why I cannot dismiss Islam at the expense of Christianity and so forth. I cannot abandon all intellectual reason when I examine the claims of various religions and I cannot blindly turn my eye to the common theme and outright plagiarism of and by modern religions from those or earlier civilizations, staring with such startling revelations that the “Christ” and resurrection, right down to the 3 days, is NOT an original story to Christianity! I’m not trying to raise a talking point for specific debate about the foregoing, but to only illustrate my point about common themes and plagiarism.

And I cannot put my “faith” into the words written by any man. And thus my question - IF God ever communicated with man as claimed (national and personal revelation), why has he stopped? We do have dogmatic believers here and I have not heard one satisfactory answer although I would expect a self-serving scriptural quote to the effect that He will not return again until the end times or something to that effect.

My question is really simple, and has nothing to do with my personal bias, if any. In fact, if anyone here could prove to me the truth of a religion, I’d happily accept it. But again, the claim is that at one time, God spoke with man, and then incarnated thru a man and performed miracles. And then God never spoke again, unless we want to include the claims of Muhammad - and we can consider that a valid claim too for arguments sake. Heck, we can even include the claims of Joseph Smith. But the point remains, at one time, God spoke with us directly…what happened?
[/quote]

“Tetelestai.”

[quote]

I do agree with your comment about “kernel of truth” and as far as I’m concerned, all religions share a “kernel of truth” and those “kernels” are not the intellectual or divine property of any one religion and appear to have been with us since civilization. And perhaps therein is the true word of “God”. And perhaps he does speak to us directly if it is He that resides in that part of each of us that is intrinsically good. [/quote]

Again I speak sincerely, and please do not take my terse post as any indication of dismissiveness. My question to you, and I don’t ask it in the hope of receiving an answer, even, is this: You have clearly spent a lot time seeking the truth, but, did you ever ask to be shown? [/quote]

Yes.

And who’s to say I don’t have it? You’re not intending to be presumptuou are you? But I do understand how you might get that impression since I’m trying to pose these questions without making my own conclusions. [/quote]

There can be nothing but presumptuousness with the question I asked, which is why I said I was not looking for your answer. It’s a koan, at best. I cannot even say with real confidence that I have opened up my own heart contritely, selflessly enough to drown out the noise enough to distinguish God’s voice from the rest of the clamor. I certainly cannot know that of another, not even those I know most intimately. Only you can know that.

93

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Yes. What exactly is your point here? That we are far along in our understanding of the universe? Great. It does nothing to alter or refute my point, which is that, without those stupid religions, we’d be farther.[/quote]

You mean we would be farther without the math and astrology that was developed for religious reasons?

We would be farther if the works of the Romans and the Greeks had not been preserved in the monasteries?

Would we be farther without Roman law and it religious underpinnings?

Without the construction methods that were develpoped to build religious buildings?

Without philosophy that was for a long time inseparable from religion both in the East and the West?[/quote]

Yup.

94

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Imagine where we would be with understanding the origins of the universe if so many people didnt shout “Sky Wizard poofed it into existence!”. Imagine how much more the non-SW folk could do if they didnt have to waste so much time arguing that we have no reason to think an invisible man created our universe on a whim.

[/quote]

You’re right. Particle physicists have only recently formed a multi national coalition using billions of dollars of equipment and human resources at the LHC trying to prove the existence of a Higgs boson, a theoretical sub atomic particle based on the Higgs mechanism, which hasn’t been proven yet, and can’t be without the proof of the existence of the Higgs boson.

Ironically enough, nicknamed the “God Particle”. But when they do find it (or not) they will be one step closer to understanding the origin of the universe.

If it weren’t for these stupid religions that have plagued human history they would be way ahead of this by now, and I’m sure you would be able to rest easily knowing that much more about the origins of the universe.

Of course you already knew that, right?

[/quote]

Yes. What exactly is your point here? That we are far along in our understanding of the universe? Great. It does nothing to alter or refute my point, which is that, without those stupid religions, we’d be farther.[/quote]

Prove it.
[/quote]

I could prove it, but I wont, because I want you to have faith.

95

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Imagine where we would be with understanding the origins of the universe if so many people didnt shout “Sky Wizard poofed it into existence!”. Imagine how much more the non-SW folk could do if they didnt have to waste so much time arguing that we have no reason to think an invisible man created our universe on a whim.

[/quote]

You’re right. Particle physicists have only recently formed a multi national coalition using billions of dollars of equipment and human resources at the LHC trying to prove the existence of a Higgs boson, a theoretical sub atomic particle based on the Higgs mechanism, which hasn’t been proven yet, and can’t be without the proof of the existence of the Higgs boson.

Ironically enough, nicknamed the “God Particle”. But when they do find it (or not) they will be one step closer to understanding the origin of the universe.

If it weren’t for these stupid religions that have plagued human history they would be way ahead of this by now, and I’m sure you would be able to rest easily knowing that much more about the origins of the universe.

Of course you already knew that, right?

[/quote]

Yes. What exactly is your point here? That we are far along in our understanding of the universe? Great. It does nothing to alter or refute my point, which is that, without those stupid religions, we’d be farther.[/quote]

Prove it.
[/quote]

I could prove it, but I wont, because I want you to have faith.[/quote]

No, you can’t, and you are a terrible chess player.

Besides, I already have faith, and believe me- it has been tested by better than you.

96

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[/quote]

I don’t give a shit how many lives it’s saved at this point (or even if it EVER develops into a viable technology that ends up saving lives or not). THAT’S NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that a CHRISTIAN president used his PERSONAL religious beliefs to affect public policy. I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT. You are honing in on the most MINOR point of what I wrote. Which is typical of the kind of idiotic, tired old arguments I have come to expect from you guys.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! LOL

97

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[/quote]

I don’t give a shit how many lives it’s saved at this point (or even if it EVER develops into a viable technology that ends up saving lives or not). THAT’S NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that a CHRISTIAN president used his PERSONAL religious beliefs to affect public policy. I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT. You are honing in on the most MINOR point of what I wrote. Which is typical of the kind of idiotic, tired old arguments I have come to expect from you guys.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! LOL[/quote]

Absolute blasphemy.

You have the right to believe what you want, but you have gone too far with this picture.

May God have mercy on you, though you don’t believe in him.

98

You are one smart mother fucker ac!! I am in awe!! I never once brought religion to the topic. I find it amazing, that you however have such a huge problem insecurities anyone? that you immediately jump to the conclusion that a stand against a research has gone no where has to be religious. I KNOW adult stem cells have proven to be extremely successful and they are where the research needs to be. In fact over 10,000 successes vs ZERO tells me where research needs to be done.

I could give a shit where you ‘think’ you know better, because you talked to some scientist [hearsay anyone?]. Wonder why this country has financial problems? No way it is because you want to waste money in research that is going no where! Guess what ac? I can personally benefit from adult stem cell research. Your bigoted ignorant rant proves you have no clue what you are talking about. YOU just wanted to whine like a little kid that did not get his way. You just want attention. Cry where some people want to listen.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[/quote]

I don’t give a shit how many lives it’s saved at this point (or even if it EVER develops into a viable technology that ends up saving lives or not). THAT’S NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that a CHRISTIAN president used his PERSONAL religious beliefs to affect public policy. I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT. You are honing in on the most MINOR point of what I wrote. Which is typical of the kind of idiotic, tired old arguments I have come to expect from you guys.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! LOL[/quote]

99

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[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[/quote]

I don’t give a shit how many lives it’s saved at this point (or even if it EVER develops into a viable technology that ends up saving lives or not). THAT’S NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that a CHRISTIAN president used his PERSONAL religious beliefs to affect public policy. I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT. You are honing in on the most MINOR point of what I wrote. Which is typical of the kind of idiotic, tired old arguments I have come to expect from you guys.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! LOL[/quote]

Absolute blasphemy.

You have the right to believe what you want, but you have gone too far with this picture.

May God have mercy on you, though you don’t believe in him.[/quote]

Do you believe I should die for my blasphemy? Who are YOU to judge? What’s TOO FAR?

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO REPRESS MY FREEDOM TO POST WHAT I WANT?

If “God” REALLY had a problem with it, then where are the fucking lighting bolts? Oh right, there AREN’T any…

Aren’t YOU the one who believed that it was a good idea to kill children in the name of religion? I think I remember that thread quite clearly. Yes, you are DEFINITELY the baby killer.

Care to fucking justify why it’s OK to KILL CHILDREN, but it’s NOT ok to post a funny picture?

Killing children = OK, god said to do it.

Posting a picture of jesus fucking himself = BLASPHEMY! You’ve gone too far!

Brilliant Logic, you fucking sick piece of shit.

Here’s some more blasphemy - STILL waiting for the lightning bolt…

100

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You never answered my question. How many lives have been saved with embryonic stem cells?

The federal dollars were stopped. OMG big deal!! With private dollars the research would continue because that same type of vision led to Bam bam being elected as president and his NPP. If there are so many lives being saved through ESC you think in the technologies we have today, the facts would be kept quiet?!? Sorry ac, even at 6’7" that is a stretch even I will NOT make.

[/quote]

I don’t give a shit how many lives it’s saved at this point (or even if it EVER develops into a viable technology that ends up saving lives or not). THAT’S NOT THE POINT. The POINT is that a CHRISTIAN president used his PERSONAL religious beliefs to affect public policy. I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT. You are honing in on the most MINOR point of what I wrote. Which is typical of the kind of idiotic, tired old arguments I have come to expect from you guys.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! LOL[/quote]

Absolute blasphemy.

You have the right to believe what you want, but you have gone too far with this picture.

May God have mercy on you, though you don’t believe in him.[/quote]

Do you believe I should die for my blasphemy? Who are YOU to judge? What’s TOO FAR?

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO REPRESS MY FREEDOM TO POST WHAT I WANT?

If “God” REALLY had a problem with it, then where are the fucking lighting bolts? Oh right, there AREN’T any…

Aren’t YOU the one who believed that it was a good idea to kill children in the name of religion? I think I remember that thread quite clearly. Yes, you are DEFINITELY the baby killer.

Care to fucking justify why it’s OK to KILL CHILDREN, but it’s NOT ok to post a funny picture?

Killing children = OK, god said to do it.

Posting a picture of jesus fucking himself = BLASPHEMY! You’ve gone too far!

Brilliant Logic, you fucking sick piece of shit.

Here’s some more blasphemy - STILL waiting for the lightning bolt…[/quote]

And see, here we go again with taking things out of context. In that thread someone asked why God would order the blood of an entire people, children included. My honest and still steadfast response was that I really don’t know. All I did was offer a potential reason as to why. I in no way shape or form condone the killing of children, and for the last time God would NOT ask anyone to as divine revelation has ceased.

Did God Order the Killing of Babies?
by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

Skeptics and atheists have been critical of the Bibleâ??s portrayal of God ordering the death of entire populationsâ??including women and children. For example, God instructed Saul through the prophet Samuel to â??go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkeyâ?? (1 Samuel 15:3-4, emp. added). Other examples include the period of the Israelite conquest of Canaan in which God instructed the people to exterminate the Canaanite populations that occupied Palestine at the time. However, if one cares to examine the circumstances and assess the rationale, the Bible consistently exonerates itself by offering legitimate clarification and explanation to satisfy the honest searcher of truth.

The Hebrew term herem found, for instance, in Joshua 6:17, refers to the total dedication or giving over of the enemy to God as a sacrifice involving the extermination of the populace. It is alleged that the God of the Bible is as barbaric and cruel as any of the pagan gods. But this assessment is simply not true.

If the critic would take the time to study the Bible and make an honest evaluation of the principles of Godâ??s justice, wrath, and love, he would see the perfect and harmonious interplay between them. Godâ??s vengeance is not like the impulsive, irrational, emotional outbursts of pagan deities or human beings. He is infinite in all His attributes and thus perfect in justice, love, and anger. Just as Godâ??s ultimate and final condemnation of sinners to eternal punishment will be just and appropriate, so the temporal judgment of wicked people in the Old Testament was ethical and fair. We human beings do not have an accurate handle on the gravity of sin and the deplorable nature of evil and wickedness. Human sentimentality is hardly a qualified measuring stick for divine truth and spiritual reality.

How incredibly ironic that the atheist, the agnostic, the skeptic, and the liberal all attempt to stand in judgment upon the ethical behavior of God when, if one embraces their position, there is no such thing as an absolute, objective, authoritative standard by which to pronounce anything right or wrong. As the French existentialist philosopher, Sartre, admitted: â??Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist… Nor…are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behaviorâ?? (1961, p. 485). The atheist and agnostic have absolutely no platform on which to stand to make moral or ethical distinctionsâ??except as the result of purely personal taste. The mere fact that they concede the existence of objective evil is an unwitting concession there is a God Who has established an absolute framework of moral judgments.

The facts of the matter are that the Canaanites, whom Godâ??s people were to destroy, were destroyed for their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-12; Leviticus 18:24-25,27-28). Canaanite culture and religion in the second millennium B.C. were polluted, corrupt, and perverted. No doubt the people were physically diseased from their illicit behavior. There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was â??fullâ?? (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminatedâ??just like in Noahâ??s day when God waited while Noah preached for years, but was unable to turn the worldâ??s population from its wickedness (Genesis 6:3,5-7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5-9). Including the children in the destruction of such populations actually spared them from a worse conditionâ??that of being reared to be as wicked as their parents and thus face eternal punishment. All persons who die in childhood, according to the Bible, are ushered to Paradise and will ultimately reside in Heaven. Children who have parents who are evil must naturally suffer innocently while on Earth (e.g., Numbers 14:33).