Hamster,
I think this thread had the potential to be pretty good.
However, turning it into a thread about why wanting to build muscles is a bad thing kind of squelched it.
Considering the site we are on, that isn’t too hard to figure out.
Okay, really, back to the comic books for me!
because i want to stick out in peoples mind as WOW he was big. i want the respect i feel i deserve, the respect i give people who don’t deserve it. but most importantly, i want to not be fucked with.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
You’re kidding right? The whole point I’ve been trying to make is that we may have all crossed the line of “healthy obsession” a long time ago. That includes me. I’m rethinking what has motivated me to lift weights. You don’t have to agree with me.
[/quote]
Dude, if you think YOU have gone overboard, then take your weights and burn them. Why would you try to make anyone else feel as if they have gone too far? My goal is well beyond most people just casually lifting in the gym. Many of them may think I am “too far” as it is. Luckily, I don’t let the opinions of others rule my own goals and desires. I still don’t see why you approached this like you did. I have known what my overall goal is for a very long time. People without extreme goals don’t stand out. They end up being one of the many in a crowd who noone notices. Why would you want to be like that?
This is a bodybuilding board. Did you forget?
I dont want to be big and I really cant be “big” because of my main focus, golf. If I get too big in certain areas it will affect my game. Thats because the most time I can dedicate to a “bulk” is the winter months and I cannot swing on a consistant basis. If I am able to swing on a consistand basis my game should not be affected if I gain significant weight. I’m 165 now and thus far there hasnt been any ill affects on my game. The ultimate goal for me is to be a decently lean 170-175. I DONT have to be shredded. Its all about looking proportionate for me.
I’ve fluttered aroung the 150-155 barried (at 5’7") for most of the past 10 years. I never did a “bulk” never wanted to. Now that things have fallen into place I can take the first attempt at it. To be “bigger” for me would be looking better and ultimately help my game. Better distance, control, mental strength, and endurance. But there is a limit as I have stated because of circumstances.
[quote]DooMMOoD wrote:
i want the respect i feel i deserve, the respect i give people who don’t deserve it. [/quote]
Never thought of it that way before, cool shit.
Hamster, what do you want from us?
Do you want us to say “You know what, Hamster’s right. Let’s all stop lifting and eat rice cakes all day to save the animals”?
[quote]PGA200X wrote:
I dont want to be big and I really cant be “big” because of my main focus, golf. If I get too big in certain areas it will affect my game. Thats because the most time I can dedicate to a “bulk” is the winter months and I cannot swing on a consistant basis. If I am able to swing on a consistand basis my game should not be affected if I gain significant weight. I’m 165 now and thus far there hasnt been any ill affects on my game. The ultimate goal for me is to be a decently lean 170-175. I DONT have to be shredded. Its all about looking proportionate for me.
I’ve fluttered aroung the 150-155 barried (at 5’7") for most of the past 10 years. I never did a “bulk” never wanted to. Now that things have fallen into place I can take the first attempt at it. To be “bigger” for me would be looking better and ultimately help my game. Better distance, control, mental strength, and endurance. But there is a limit as I have stated because of circumstances.[/quote]
I have a frat brother who golfs regularly and he weighs 270lbs. Idrise Ward-el is rumored to be an exceptional golfer and he is a pro bodybuilder. I think some myths just die hard. If your mechanics change, it isn’t like you can’t adjust your technique. I am not a fan of golf, but I am around enough people who do it regularly and some of those guys are pretty big.
Well Hamster, If you wanted to look at the spiritual aspects of training, why didn’t you just say so?
Here’s my take.
The guys I lift with are my brothers in Iron. We are bonded by a struggle to push harder. When one of us fails at a new max, the others are there to spot him and encourage him to do better next time. When one of us reaches a new max, the others are there to share in that success. We are there for each other to push harder as a group than any of us could alone.
This is the essence of the shared experience that creates a spiritual bond for us. Nothing vain about it.
It was either that or a story about Mike Webster(from the old Steelers dynasty) and Father Paul at Saint Annes Church that looked at football as their vocational gift from God that they were obligated to share with the world. But thats a whole other perspective that I’m not too familiar with.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have a frat brother who golfs regularly and he weighs 270lbs. Idrise Ward-el is rumored to be an exceptional golfer and he is a pro bodybuilder. I think some myths just die hard. If your mechanics change, it isn’t like you can’t adjust your technique. I am not a fan of golf, but I am around enough people who do it regularly and some of those guys are pretty big.[/quote]
Yeah, there are definitely big boys that play but the ones that arent affected by growth, or who are born big, are the ones that are able to swing through out the year and have had the necessary time to adapt. Its a VERY long winter up here. I pick up the clubs MAYBE 5 times in the span of 5 months. And as soon as I pick them up regularly my tournament season is immediate.
This will be the first time ever that I will be able to regularly lift during the season. The last few seasons towards the end I sucked hard which I can only attribute to loss of strength. Being in school, full-time job, and a round of golf or practice a day made it difficult to get to the gym with any regularity. Now I have a gym within walking distance from work and hit it during my lunch hour.
This year though I’m going to see how it goes with some growth, albit small, lift through out the season and see where my swing is at the beginning and end of the season.
[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s fulfilling.
Many things in life are outside of your control. Your body, and what you can do with it, is basically under your own complete control.
If I go to the gym and work very damned hard, I can force my body to adapt.
I can push and increase the volume of something by adding a few reps. If I’ve done that already then perhaps I can add a bit of weight and keep the reps in a range that aids my goals. If I’m so inclined, I can enhance endurance or specific skills.
At times I get to sweat, strain, feel an intense burn and generally know that I have the ability to focus, concentrate and push myself. There is a reward in hard effort and it’s name is progress and satisfaction. Somehow, as well, there is honor in the honesty of iron.
Personally, I am not chasing a particular size. I am chasing progress and size or strength are something that may demonstrate that I’ve worked very hard for a very long time, at least to those that can recognize it.
I’ve got a long way to go. In fact, the road is probably endless… it’s a journey that I will treasure.[/quote]
Very well said Vroom!
I started out for my health and bone strength. I started seeing results and like the way I felt and looked. So I guess I’m sort of hooked, but it is a good hooked, I guess…
Besides, who wants to be small…
Something to do…
When I go to the park, the pigeons feed me… 
As with most things in life, being big is what you make it.
I am sure there are many, many people, especially the young, who want to be big because they feel small. They especially want it quick, without much effort. They are kind of spoilt. Others are just fearful. Most are probably young, others are old but a bit immature. Some might even get to actually be big and strong but still feel that little child inside and are overcompensating.
HOWEVER you can’t say that is true of most of those who have achieved great size and strength, whatever insecurites they started out with (if any) have probably vanished on the way of a long arduous journey.
You might be able to say that of a majority of people starting out, and a lot of them will probably drop out and fail the tests of discipline.
Also, overcompensating for feelings of smallness / powerlessness is not the only reason to want to be big. Like mountaineers, some do it “because it’s there.” And it is fun. And it is addictive to see your body adapt to change, it is a miracle and a wonder.
And there are many health benefits - I wish the normal was that EVERYONE pursued muscle size and low fatness, hard work, discipline and good diet, instead of the reverse: quick food, emotional eating, laziness. It certainly would help the national health budget. And the huge market created would cut down the price of supplements and healthy foods.
Also there is always the aspect of pride, but remember, pride and conceit are two different things, and one doesn’t necessarily mean the other is present.
This sport of bodybuilding is an important one, because as humans push themselves in this arena, they make discoveries of how our bodies work, and lead science in ways that are otherwise ignored. There is not enough focus on preventative medicine, because the money (drug companies) is in treatment. Imagine if there was no bodybuilding, what knowledge we simply would not have regarding diet and exercise.
Personally I just like to lift weights it is fun. The biggest problem is having the jeans wear out between the thighs, maybe I should invent a new kind of jeans with a hardwearing inner, or a sort of slippery bit, man that ain’t a bad idea. Or maybe I should scotchguard them. hey … problem solved.
Prox X I know hundreds of doctors and there are a few with tats, shaved heads and facial piercings. It is not normal but it is around. But what often surprises me are the top docs, very conservative looking, who have really wild pasts.
Tattoos especially were such a sign of toughness in the old days, these days, it is hard to find a young girl who isn’t tattoed on 5%+ of her body. Especially on the back around waist level.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Prox X I know hundreds of doctors and there are a few with tats, shaved heads and facial piercings. It is not normal but it is around. But what often surprises me are the top docs, very conservative looking, who have really wild pasts.
[/quote]
I know some docs with tats. The other poster just made it seem as if this was the latest thing to look like I described and every doc is walking around with above average builds and bald heads. Most of the guys I know don’t lift. My childhood doc used to train at the same gym as me, however. He is still in shape even though he must be over 55 by now (he was pretty young when I was a kid). If he is a symbol of what you can look like over 50, it is simply more motivation. I think the ones who take it to an extreme are few. I took out my earrings in school because of the fuss made over how “unprofessional” it is. Society, in my opinion, needs an enema.
[quote]conorh wrote:
If you don’t want to be big, why are you lifting weights?
[/quote]
Big or small, it doesn’t matter to me, but lifting weights sure is much more fun than jogging. Thats my original reason, I got tired of running.
I don’t.
Where do I begin with this post?
[quote]brainfreez wrote:
To all the people upset at the thought of “size” giving you less Agility, health, endurance etc.
I would answer yes to both questions. That doesn’t mean either choice is wrong, just that they’re different.
[/quote]
Yes to the first question. Not necessarily yes to the second question. And why is this the only question your asking is what I really want to know. What does 20 minutes of cardio have to do with the discussion at hand? Like that is the only way to better agility, speed and flexibility. Wrong answer…
Your taking one extreme example to attempt at making a point. Most NFL linebackers also have a huge amount of bodyfat, so of course, if they lost that bodyfat it would positively affect endurance, health and agility.
I think we have to clarify about getting “big” here. I think it’s every one’s goal on this site to gain more muscle without fat (or cut the fat down once the ultimate size is reached).
The whole hypothesis put forth in this thread is that if you get bigger, you lose agility, speed, and flexibility which I say bullshit. There are thousands upon thousands of examples where this is not true.
Just reference John Berardi’s recent G-flux article. “Pavle Jovanovic, the world’s top brakeman and US gold medal hopeful (with Todd Hays) in this year’s Olympic games. After all, how many of you have ever seen a guy who is 6’ tall, 220lbs, under 6% body fat, can run 30m in 3.54 sec, can clean 167.5kg (368.5lbs), and can squat 260kg (572lbs)?” Are you telling me that if he “lost” 15 pounds of muscle he would be more agile, more speedy and more flexible? If you answer yes, you are dead wrong. And according to this thread’s opening statement the answer would be yes. That’s why this thread is retarded.
Your use of an extreme example doesn’t make this guy’s original point true. I’ll repeat, he said that getting bigger (gaining muscle) will make you less agile and flexible. Bullshit! And let’s talk reality here, like any of us are going to get to 300 lbs of muscle. Your example is a very poor one and there still is no point to this discussion.
Finally we agree.
[quote]
And ya, I would also say that hamster is conflating two serperate issues when he talks about the “selfishness” of bodybuilding along with the “strength-speed” dichotomy. [/quote]
I feel stupider after reading this thread.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
Yes, you drive exactly at my underlying point. What I am beginning to understand is this: To want to be huge is a selfish, conceited pursuit.
[/quote]
Buulshit. Every lawyer, doctor, CEO and other high paid working man is also now a selfish, conceited person. Why? Cos making all that money is selfish and conceited, especially since lots out there don’t. Oh, wait, wanna send your kids to a top college? You got it, selfish and conceited. Travel around the world? Selfish and conceited. Want to run a mile in under 4 min? Throw a baseball over 90mph over the mound? Run a 100m in under 10s? Yes folks, all selfish and conceited goals. So, instead of coming here and attacking us, you should go and insult every olympic athlete, cos lets be honest, getting a gold is WAY MORE selfish and conceited than getting huge will ever be.
Oh yeah, and to answer your question:
I wanna be huge cos I never have been. I’ve always been the skinny unathletic kid, you know the 1 that gets picked last for sports teams, that people simply glance at and disregard cos he doesn’t stand out. Yeah, that was my childhood. God has given me the opportunity, the ability, the willpower to make something of myself. Why wouldn’t I want to do that?
Isn’t NOT bettering oneself MORE conceited than my goal of getting huge? You have been given this amazing body and mind, that is capable of far more than most average people realize, and yet you don’t want to push the limits? Don’t you want to see how far you can go? How close you can get to perfection? I sure as hell do, I want to challenge myself, push myself farther and harder. Go the distance when 99% of ‘normal’ people would simply quit and walk away, saying its too hard, or its not worth the effort. I wanna be able to shove it down the throats of people like you, people that simply slap us in the face for doing what we love. Like Prof X. said, go burn your weights, you aren’t worthy of them.
And while you’re at it, sell your house and your car, wanting to have such luxuries is obviously conceited and selfish.
randman, I’m not sure that I need to reply since I think we agree on everything and are just playing semantics at this point.
I think my examples, however, were valid. I didn’t say that 20 mintues of cardio would increase agility and speed, I said it would increase health and endurance. I think that NFL linebackers are a fair example of what happens if you only care about strength and size and neglect speed and agility. [I also think that the rest of the NFL team is strong as fuck [just not as strong as the linebackers, who are as strong as fuckin’ fuck] and could eat the 150 lb teenagers who post in physique and performance for a midday snack, but there’s no disagreement there]
Also, it’s clear that muscle itself isn’t detrimental to agility, speed, endurance and health. Most olympic gymnasts are utterly jacked.
But I think that the pursuit of maximum muscle can be. Case in point, if you want to be as strong as you possibly can, you will have to accept a higher BF%. That higher BF% will negatively impact the other factors of fitness. Likewise, Ronnie Coleman’s pursuit of muscle has probably led him to take drugs we didn’t even know were invented. His muscles won’t kill him, but the abnormal endocrine profile he accepted in pursuit of those muscles might.
I’m not even saying that a relatively hgih BF% and supraphysiologic levels of Insulin-like Growth Factor are BAD. I’m just saying that there’s a tradeoff and a choice there, and we can recognize that while still being respectful.
Cheers,
bf
[quote]brainfreez wrote:
But I think that the pursuit of maximum muscle can be. Case in point, if you want to be as strong as you possibly can, you will have to accept a higher BF%. That higher BF% will negatively impact the other factors of fitness. Likewise, Ronnie Coleman’s pursuit of muscle has probably led him to take drugs we didn’t even know were invented. His muscles won’t kill him, but the abnormal endocrine profile he accepted in pursuit of those muscles might.
[/quote]
I think we, for the most part, are in agreement. The problem I have with the original post is the huge generalizations this guy was throwing out there. To sum up, (1) you’re egotistical if you want to get bigger (2) theology backs this up (or some shit like that) and (3) by getting bigger you are less agile and flexible. And my response was bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit.
I agree with your maximum muscle coment for the most part. I will say that higher bf% is a temporary state though when going for maximum muscle gain. If you are in pursuit of a good physique, the aforementioned bf% will be dieted off. As for massive amounts of drugs, of course that will be detrimental to one’s health. But these arguments are going off on tangents to the hypothesis put forward by the original post.
I say again, let’s be realistic, there is maybe one or two people that have ever posted on T-Nation that has to worry about acheiving maximum muscle.
I contend that every single poster on this site could stand to gain more muscle and could also become more flexbile, agile, and quicker in the process.
And that’s why the original post sucks monkey ass. Because he was bascially saying that any of US, not Ronnie Coleman or a three hundred pound linebacker with 25% bf, will get slower, less agile, and less flexible the more size WE put on. And let’s throw in that we are theologically not aligned and we are egotistical as well for pursuing more size.
I finish my posting on this thread with a final word to all of that lazy thinking posted on this thread: BULLSHIT!
[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Because I was always small, weak and picked on when I was younger.[/quote]
^^^ What he said. Except I was fat and conditioned to be a pacifistic Christio-Tao-Buddhist type, thus I got picked on a lot.