[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s fulfilling.
Many things in life are outside of your control. Your body, and what you can do with it, is basically under your own complete control.
[/quote]
This is the most facinating thing that you don’t get until you do it, then it’s really one thing you have FULL control over.
You can’t tell what your boss, wife, kids, friends will do or nature will do to you, but this, this is under your control. It’s enough to give you a hard on at times.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
…[/quote]
I agree, this thread don’t make any sense.
You are what you eat.
You want to be big, train to be big. You want to be fast, train to be fast.
Don’t complain when training to be big that you’re not as fast, because you neglected speed training.
Are you saying that those of us(yourself inluded) that seek to be big have some sort of ego problem? Hell, there’s worse ways to satisfy a man’s ego than putting time under a bar and eating more than three meals a day.
[quote]Buoycall wrote:
Prof X wrote
“How much thought needs to go into, “I want to be like that”? I keep relating it to education because it makes sense to do so. Would you be making similar statements like, “it seems some people are focused on getting college educations without really thinking why”?”
I’ve actually had that thought during my last four years at college. I fully understand the general necessity of a college education and further in obtaining a high paying job. However, I have to say, the majority of the education I’ve received at UVa hasn’t come from the classes I’ve been taking, but rather from the books I’ve read on my own. Have I made myself more marketable to the corporate world? Yes. Did I truly need this education to function in said world? I don’t think I did. Maybe it’s only because I love reading, and about a wide range of subjects, but I question the necessity of college education, especially those focused in the liberal arts, as it seems more than possible to do it on your own. I think Matt Damon put it well in Good Will Hunting, “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library.”
[/quote]
Hey, that’s a good quote. I agree with what you say.
However, for practicality, a degree is a whole lot easier to judge than actually getting to know someone in an hour.
[quote]elliot007 wrote:
to crush my enemes, see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women[/quote]
Excellent quote!
[quote]brainfreez wrote:
Oo. . hamster I see where you were going with this now, and it makes sense.
I agree with Prof X that most things that most people do are pride motivated. If your car costs more than $5000 you are pride motivated. Yes, you could take all the time you spend in the gym and devote it to soup kitchens. But that seems like a rather unfair standard.
There are ‘holy’ reasons to bodybuild, I suppose. Health seems right. Protecting others seems right [and no, I don’t get in fights, but I know that my presence has been of comfort to women in uncomfortable situations – like this homeless guy who was harrassing a solitary woman at a bus stop, that sort of thing.] The biggest high bodybuilding has ever given me is pushing other peoples cars out of the snow. Ya, in a way it’s prideful to feel like a hero when you do that, but is it a ‘holy’ pride? I mean wouldn’t it be more problematic if I felt that way after pushing my car out of the snow?
You mentioned the word theologically. do you think that theologically speaking, God would want us to make the most of the bodies he gave us? I also think that he wants men to be manly and engage in Testosterone endeavours. It just feels like what I was meant to do. [After all, we were designed to work hard with our bodies, but technology has taken that from us.]
[/quote]
Finally, someone who has some level of interest in the theology behind exercise.
Yes, you drive exactly at my underlying point. What I am beginning to understand is this: To want to be huge is a selfish, conceited pursuit.
Good point brainfreez. God does want us to be men. The difference is in the amount of focused attention we give to exercise. Is exercise a healthy part of our life, with long term benefits? Or is it a vain pursuit, one that we obsess over in order to impress or even scare people?
Answer those questions honestly, and you’ll understand what I’m getting at. I can think of no more relevant a topic to discuss, despite those who don’t understand this thread.
“to crush my enemes, see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women”
Genghis Khan, circa 1206 & Conan the Barbarian circa 1982.
Weight lifting is a hobby for me, I am goal oriented and it is a cool way to achieve goals and stay healthy.
If you are not achieving your goals as far as speed and agility go, maybe you should change the way you train.
check this out:
[quote]Hamster wrote:
I’m not saying that bigger guys can’t be quick or flexible! I simply contend that they could be quicker and MORE flexible if they were smaller! [/quote]
Oh, they could be quicker and more flexible because they have all that non-functional mass. I think you have to question your assumptions. I have the exact opposite beliefs. If you train right, added muscle mass can make you stronger, faster, quicker and still be incredibly flexible.
If you don’t want to be big, why are you lifting weights?
[quote]AverageJay wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Hamster wrote:
I also have no desire to fit in as “normal”. I shave my head. I have tattoos. I lift weights. I ride motorcycles. If I wanted to be normal, I would sit on my ass like everyone else.
I hate to break this to you but a shaven head, tattoos, and riding motorcycles is the “norm”. All the cool lawyers, doctors, teachers, accountants, ect… are doing it. And nobody’s impressed.
[/quote]
Man, the rise on trolls on T-Nation lately is surprising. Where do you all come from? Because I would like to exterminate all of you at the source.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
But after having gained some size, I’m realizing that other physical qualities are suffering. I don’t change direction as fast. I don’t perform as well on endurance related tests (i’m in the military). I’ve lost some flexibility.
[/quote]
Are you really this dense? If you’re not training for agility and/or endurance while gaining size then of course you’ll get these results. Your taking this one “experience” to come to the conclusion that the whole human race will suffer in all other aspects of fitness by getting more muscular. Again, I ask, are you really this dense?
[quote]Hamster wrote:
But theologically, you must recognize at some level, that training to be big and scary and different than everyone else is a vain pursuit. One that is even egotistical.
[/quote]
How the hell did you tie theology to gaining size and concluding that you must be egotistical?
I go to church and believe in God. I want to get bigger because I think I look better when I’m more muscular. I feel stronger. It’s a challenging pursuit and I like to be challenged. How does any of that have anything to do with egotism or vanity? It may be ego for you, but again, you are using your experience and coming to the conclusion that everyone else thinks and acts like you.
I’ll ask a third time, are you really this dense?
[quote]Hamster wrote:
Epiphany:
Has anyone ever asked themselves why they are so intent on being big? I know we all have different goals but… I’m simply curious why hugeness is one of them?
[/quote]
obvious answer…because the process of becoming muscular is something that I enjoy doing…
doing anything beyond the basic necessities to survive could be considered ego fulfillment…
why would you use the word ‘unfortunately’ to describe something that you enjoy and makes you feel better about yourself? I don’t think there is anything wrong with having a healthy self-esteem…too many people hate everything about the way they look but will do nothing to change that state…there loss…
why use the term ‘big body’? why didn’t you use the term ‘muscular body’…is it because your statement would be without merit?
by the way, most of the scrawny people that I’ve meet are not agile, flexible, or healthy…they simple don’t over eat…but this doesn’t mean that they’re healthy either…most of them drink and smoke too much and they don’t exersize regularly…
no argument there…but I bet we have different ideas of what a lean muscular body is…
[quote]
Think Men’s Health cover, Pavel Tsatsouline, Edward Norton in “American History X,” etc…
So why be big?[/quote]
while Pavel and Norton (in American History X) are lean, they are no where near muscular…they’re not scrawny, just thin, with a smidge of muscle…
why do you want to look like Pavel Tsatsouline? He looks like your average joe (ok, average joe pre fat epidemic)…when Pavel wears cloths you’d never even be able to guess that he worked out…is that your goal, to have people think you’re a run-of-the-mill thin dude? that look doesn’t appeal to me…
[quote]Buoycall wrote:
Prof X wrote
“How much thought needs to go into, “I want to be like that”? I keep relating it to education because it makes sense to do so. Would you be making similar statements like, “it seems some people are focused on getting college educations without really thinking why”?”
I’ve actually had that thought during my last four years at college. I fully understand the general necessity of a college education and further in obtaining a high paying job. However, I have to say, the majority of the education I’ve received at UVa hasn’t come from the classes I’ve been taking, but rather from the books I’ve read on my own. Have I made myself more marketable to the corporate world? Yes. Did I truly need this education to function in said world? I don’t think I did. Maybe it’s only because I love reading, and about a wide range of subjects, but I question the necessity of college education, especially those focused in the liberal arts, as it seems more than possible to do it on your own. I think Matt Damon put it well in Good Will Hunting, “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library.”
[/quote]
All true education is because of knowledge sought on your own. No one can force feed it to you. I learned more about life from “college life” than I did in class. I learned the basics in biology, added more in genetics and really learned a lot in biochemisry. I learned even more in summer internships working in labs. All of it together, along with extra reading I did in the library is what equalled my total education. I think any kid that doesn’t realize that things will not be spoon fed to them is doing THEMSELVES a disservice.
We see that attitude on this site. Newbies log in and, without reading one damned thing in posts or articles, make a request like, “Hi, I weigh 130lbs and eat two slices of bread everyday. What do I need to know and do to get really big really quick…for spring break?”
I read everything as a kid, including those muscle magazines that many on this site love to put down as being useless. They aren’t useless unless you are dumb enough to believe the ads and actually put no personal thought into what you do in the gym and follow what Ronnie Coleman does for contest prep. I remember going to the library and finding old…really old books on building muscle. I doubt most of the people on this site as newbies do this. It is why you get author’s names thrown at you as if simply because an author wrote it on this site, that is the end of discussion. That line of thinking can only come from someone who is so lazy that they won’t search for info on their own so they come here and expect to be spoon fed, thus getting only one point of view on a very complex field of knowledge.
I will never say college is a waste. College is largely what you make it into. It is the last point before you hit the real world and you lose the ability to fall back on the innocence of “youth”. I learned my greatest lessons in college, well, many of them. Most of them were learned in between classes, however. Because of that education, I can now move on to avoiding more jumps through hoops to please others. That was my true goal from the beginning.
A guy I used to train with was the same height as me but 30 kg lighter. His training routine sucked and I told him so. His reply to this was I don’t want to be big. So I said that a guy saying he wants to be small is the same as a chick that says that she wants to be fat!
[quote]randman wrote:
Hamster wrote:
But theologically, you must recognize at some level, that training to be big and scary and different than everyone else is a vain pursuit. One that is even egotistical.
How the hell did you tie theology to gaining size and concluding that you must be egotistical?
I go to church and believe in God. I want to get bigger because I think I look better when I’m more muscular. I feel stronger. It’s a challenging pursuit and I like to be challenged. How does any of that have anything to do with egotism or vanity? It may be ego for you, but again, you are using your experience and coming to the conclusion that everyone else thinks and acts like you.
I’ll ask a third time, are you really this dense?[/quote]
I’m not the one calling people dense because their ideas are different than mine. Let’s discuss the topic intelligently without personal attacks eh?
I’m making a very bold statement here. I know many won’t like it, but isn’t that what this site is all about?
I agree with your posts, with the exception of the unfounded last sentences.
I am not against, nor have I ever claimed to be against, being muscular. But there is a fine line between an obsession and a healthy pursuit. And at some point additional size has detrimental effects on other physical qualities. That’s all.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
Finally, someone who has some level of interest in the theology behind exercise. [/quote]
The “theology” behind exercise? This is not a religion. I find it amazing that people try to view bodybuilding in some alternative light as if they are so pious in every other facet of their being that bodybuilding represents some useless vain action that should be degraded. Get over yourself. You are not a monk. Quit pretending. I lift weights to look good and to be strong. I don’t even take it to the degree that some do because being sub-10% body fat isn’t even much of a concern to me.
[quote]
Yes, you drive exactly at my underlying point. What I am beginning to understand is this: To want to be huge is a selfish, conceited pursuit. [/quote]
You are getting irritating. I want to hear how you do not work to pay for a nice looking house, a nice looking car and care none at all about whether your clothes match or are in style. I want to hear how you don’t style your hair and you wear no cologne other than basic deodorant…nonscented. Anything more is selfish and conceited.
[quote]
Good point brainfreez. God does want us to be men. The difference is in the amount of focused attention we give to exercise. Is exercise a healthy part of our life, with long term benefits? Or is it a vain pursuit, one that we obsess over in order to impress or even scare people? [/quote]
There are people who take it past a healthy obsession, but why would that be your focus as a representation of all bodybuilders? I just watched a CSI episode where this line of thinking was used. They basically degraded every act that the supposed “bodybuilder” did as if it was borderline insane. What makes people like you do this? Why are people like you on this site or in the gyms?
[quote]
Answer those questions honestly, and you’ll understand what I’m getting at. I can think of no more relevant a topic to discuss, despite those who don’t understand this thread.[/quote]
Don;t understand the thread? Because your thinking is too complex for us poor meatheads? Do you honestly think you have enlightened someone with your words? Do you honestly think you need no enlightenment yourself as far as this topic?
To all the people upset at the thought of “size” giving you less Agility, health, endurance etc.
I would answer yes to both questions. That doesn’t mean either choice is wrong, just that they’re different.
Again, it’s very clearly a tradeoff.
You can’t be a 300 pound gymnast. We all agree on this. So long as we respect everyone else’s choices and just congratulate them on not being a fat ass this issue really shouldn’t take up this much board space.
[And I should also point out, most professional athletes are waaaay stronger and bigger than me AND waaaaay faster and more agile then me, so I agree that the best way to become faster and agile is to train those things, not to sacrifice size [although, sometimes the very training is sacrificial]
And ya, I would also say that hamster is conflating two serperate issues when he talks about the “selfishness” of bodybuilding along with the “strength-speed” dichotomy.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
I’m making a very bold statement here. I know many won’t like it, but isn’t that what this site is all about?
[/quote]
You are NOT making bold statements. You are making ill-informed statements and acting like Edward Norton was jacked. Contrary to what you seem to believe, your words do not sound like enriched wisdom of the ages. It comes across as much more stagnant and much less wise.
Sigh, I think you nailed it.
I think I’m going to go back to looking at the pictures in some comic books. All this sounding out words is taking up far too much of my time…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The “theology” behind exercise? This is not a religion. I find it amazing that people try to view bodybuilding in some alternative light as if they are so pious in every other facet of their being that bodybuilding represents some useless vain action that should be degraded. Get over yourself. You are not a monk. Quit pretending. I lift weights to look good and to be strong. I don’t even take it to the degree that some do because being sub-10% body fat isn’t even much of a concern to me. [/quote]
Just because I made a comment that is spiritual in nature doesn’t mean I’m trying to be a monk.
And you’re starting to be an asshole.
But as to your point, I agree. I never said I was the perfect man. This post originated when I was thinking about how screwed up I was myself.
You’re kidding right? The whole point I’ve been trying to make is that we may have all crossed the line of “healthy obsession” a long time ago. That includes me. I’m rethinking what has motivated me to lift weights. You don’t have to agree with me.
There were several posts of people who said they didn’t understand the point of this thread. I didn’t mean to imply anything about your smarts, professor.
This thread is going nowhere, so consider this my last post. I’m sorry if I offended anyone. I was only hoping to stimulate a good discussion.