You do realize that estrogen is not the cause of gyno and that estrogen is directly responsible for libido and erections (in the presence of sufficient androgens)… right?
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Actually, given that estrogen and progesterone stimulate the growth of mammary glands, if estrogen is high enough (we are probably talking like… you’re taking over a gram of test weekly) the risk of gyno is real
So when people take 500mg test, 50mg dbol etc (stupidly high dosages to begin with in terms of dbol), the risk is very real
Trestolone (7a methyl 19 nortestosterone) anecdotally appears notorious for inducing gyno… quickly
Yes but in this case you are taking substances that will completely spike estrogen way way up. You’re no longer in any kind of balance here. It is this lack of balance that throws guys into a hormonal mess which absolutely will cause gyno. Just as men with tanked levels of T can get gyno as well (which happened to be my case).
I thought there was good connection between E2 and gyno. I am open to evidence that debunks that.
I also have heard that high E2 can cause libido and erection issues. Again I am open to evidence that debunks that. I think many do well with high test high E2, I am not convinced all do well with high test high E2.
Just to be clear, my post was saying that I thought your claim was reasonable.
Yes and the addition of proviron messed with your hormonal balance.
Yes, that is the case… number of PR/ERs present within mammary tissue, how up/downregulated said receptors are, hormonal imbalance and more can contribute to this… but low T is somewhat strongly correlated with gynocomastia in men
There is evidence that debunks this, ill link that tommorow
If I had ten guys email you their labs, all with E2 levels over 100, with some as high as 130, with raging libido and erections (free T in the 40’s and 50’s), and zero gyno related symptoms, would that be evidence for you? If estrogen was the cause of gyno and libido/erection issues, these guys would be in bad shape… yet, they aren’t. Quite the contrary actually. Interestingly enough, I had gyno when my E2 was at 12 and total t of 227 (pre-TRT).
I believe I am one of those people. High test and high E2 and high libido. I have no problem with the notion that most do fine in that scenario. My doubt is around everybody doing fine with that balance.
In your case, you may have had the proviron bind to SHBG and then free T goes up E2 goes up not necessarily in the balance you had before. Seems plausible to cause the issues you mentioned.
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Like you say, it most likely upset the balance and my body wasn’t too pleased with it lol
The docs I deal with will treat symptoms instead of numbers… so in my cases they will get levels pretty up there… yet none use an AI with any of their patients. Some will use a SERM for short term, temporary use if any symptoms flare up. Once symptoms are gone they stop and typically it does not return.
My first post to you was a bit sloppy. I am more of a believer in ratios of androgens and estrogen being the drivers of well being or not. I should have wrote it more as your balance was thrown off, and not so much as E2 went up.
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Wether its a direct cause or not I do not know, and Im obviously no doc. However, Ive worked out with plenty guys thruout the years who use grams of gears, everything from amateur people to competing bodybuilders, and the consensus in those circles is that there is a strong relationship between estrogen levels and gyno/libido issues for sure. These people “know it”, by experience.
They jump on 1.5g of test, start feeling sensitive in the nipples, lump starting to form, they nuke their estrogen with arimidex, tamox etc, and it dissapears. Many of them also use AI to control estrogen as they are very well aware their libido and erection goes to shit when estrogen gets too high. Control it with AI = libido is great.
Direct cause or not? I have no idea, but there is a connection, anyone who have spent time around roiders for 10+ years will know this.
Here is where we get into trouble. I could probably find a few million people that can eat 2 ozs of Ginger with their sushi and be totally fine. I eat it and look out, I’m a homicidal lunatic 30 minutes later. This has been our sticking point in discussions. I am sure that 99% of guys have zero issues or actual sides from elevated E2 or E2 ratios. Maybe you are the one guy in 10 million that gets wildly skewed by something mild like Proviron. Often the effect is really secondary to a process we haven’t investigated yet. In my case, I THINK that it may be skewed phosphate levels in response to the ginger. I do not have a study to prove it, and likely never will. /so it’s good to be open to the possibility that the weirdo actually has the problem that no one else has, we just don’t understand why.
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The point is that the vast majority are fine. You are one of the select few that aren’t.
With guys and E2, they almost always believe thy are one of the select few when it is clearly not the case.
Especially guys on forums. I just like words like “Probably” in the discussions. You never know for sure, and it is more convincing. People get their backs up if you use absolutes. I spent a lot of time in sales, you have to smooth people sometimes before they will actually listen.
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I did say that they “almost always”… not always… did I not?
I was careful with my language as well Mr. Artery 
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I saw you previously stated you had gyno flareups from food and other non-drug things. i am in the same boat, even after having my gyno cut out like 4 years back. Certain foods just flare me nips right up. What do you think that may be due to?
Everyone things gyno is caused by estrogen. Gyno can be caused by all kinds of factors. Food we eat, supplements we take… they can all have an impact on our hormones. Food intolerances, vitamins, minerals etc. If something gives me a flareup I know to stay away from it. Meanwhile my estrogen is higher than it’s ever been in my life and my gyno keeps getting smaller.
I have yet to do an actual cycle and im 33yo. Messed around with things when i was younger like Pro-Hormones and shit like that but stayed the Natty course for the longest time. Definitely worries me considering my predisposition to gyno’ish flare ups if i do go on. Would you recommend anything specific for guys like us (gyno-prone from non-drug related things) to be mindful of…lets say 300-400mg/wk Test E only for 12 weeks…Id probably stay on the lower end of that range tbh
@Sabotage
Just have Tamoxifen on hand.
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What @dextermorgan said.
A SERM… Not an AI