Been studying pct for my first cycle and I see most vets are useing clomid in their pct. However, I don’t see what it does that Nolvadex does not do. In fact, the Anthony Roberts’ article makes a fairly persuasive argument for why Nolva is superior for this use. An article by Swale states they are essentialy interchangeable. So why has Clomid become so popular for pct as opposed to Nolva?
because
Dezz
Clomid is much faster at getting your testicles to produce testosterone again but Nolva is better for treating gyno issues.
[quote]ingo_1978 wrote:
Clomid is much faster at getting your testicles to produce testosterone again but Nolva is better for treating gyno issues.[/quote]
Bullshit. Clomid and nolva work very similarly for PCT. Both will boost your testosterone production, and nolvadex has been proven to be slightly superior than clomid.
How would Alpha Male compare with these two compounds?
I see you guys did your research. But did you happen to notice anything on Nolvadex’s effect of 1GF-1?
So go ahead and take your nolvadex. Your test is shot post-cycle, why not eliminate that IGF-1 2? Who needs it anyway?
[quote]cougarenegade wrote:
I see you guys did your research. But did you happen to notice anything on Nolvadex’s effect of 1GF-1?
So go ahead and take your nolvadex. Your test is shot post-cycle, why not eliminate that IGF-1 2? Who needs it anyway?
[/quote]
This is news to me. Please Explain!
That is correct. NOlvadex does decrease IGF-1 levels,to what extent is the question, but on a positive note, it is very beneficial to cholesterol levels…There is always a tradeoff in this game.
MK
This is an interesting thread with some good information. I may use clomid pct at the end of my current cycle for the first time instead of nolva. Or maybe even a combo of both. I have used nolva for recovery on all 3 of my previous cycles and i found that on the last one recovery was far more difficult than previous cycles. Does the effectiveness of tamoxafin decrease with longer use?
[quote]cougarenegade wrote:
I see you guys did your research. But did you happen to notice anything on Nolvadex’s effect of 1GF-1?
So go ahead and take your nolvadex. Your test is shot post-cycle, why not eliminate that IGF-1 2? Who needs it anyway?
[/quote]
Most studies show a decrease in IGF-1 levels, but so far I haven’t seen a decrease greater than 20%. I’d rather completely recover my testosterone levels and risk slightly decreased IFG-1 than do some shitty-ass PCT that doesn’t involve nolva.
[quote]PtrDR wrote:
How would Alpha Male compare with these two compounds?[/quote]
It doesn’t compare…
I prefer Nolvadex, actually…
20% reduction is in the middle, from the lit I’ve seen, it ranges from 15-35.
As for cholesterol, I would think that would be pretty easy to fix (diet/exercise) and if you are are healthy enough to begin w/ pre-cycle are not going to see noticeble affects. I’d say run your clomid #1, if you worried about gyno/estrogen, beat the shit out of it with a low level aromasin.
hey clomid fans, please say more than, “nolva during, clomid for pct”. this is anthony robert’s take:
One of the first drugs we?ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others.
That?s the ?selective? part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue.
However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)…Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it?s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia.
Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).
Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).
Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37).
The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)…Why don?t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing.
In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary.
Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I?m suggesting?and in fact, avoided in general?it?s simply not as good as Nolvadex.
Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid?and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no ?synergy? that I?ve ever seen in any relevant study.
SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that.
Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I?ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.
So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones.
We can?t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor ?which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day.
Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it?s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions.
I?d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations?
not saying he is automatically right b/c of who he is, i just wonder what the reasoning is behind clomid being superior. personal experiences?
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Exactly my point. In this thread we see users saying things like Clomid is “quicker to restore test production than Nolva” and that Clomid is “more effective”. Why would that be?
The Anthony Roberts info is very hard to disagree with. And we haven’t even discussed the other negative side effects of clomid. I would say that the only thing I’ve seen so far to consider clomid over nolva would be the fact that nolva can have a negative effect on IGF-1.
Anyone have any other rationale for Clomid over nolva not already mentioned above?
What is are your views on using both nolvadex and clomid in PCT? Why this is so popular?