In case anyone needs some music for motivation…
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
I don’t care what someone’s goals are, if they want to be big, or tiny and cut, or even morbidly obese - if that is their goal.
What I have issue with is when a person has a goal but cannot reach it. And complains about it. And DOES NOT DO what is commonly considered the things required to achieve that goal.
It is true not everyone builds mass and strength at the same rate, or with the same ease. But that is not what people are complaining about. When people do not follow the guidelines, then complain that it is not working, that is just plain silly.
Also another point that is important, people think that food / supplements are there to support their training. WRONG. Training, is there to support your diet. It is the massive eating that is potentially anabolic (or potentially fat-abolic), then the training can make it happen. Not the other way around.
Eating (and drinking tonnes of water) comes first.
Then training
Then recovery.
If people eat barely enough to maintain a non-active state, and then they do half assed training with mediocre weights (ie are not pushing themselves), and also they either train every single day or do sports or party hard etc… as well, well they should not complain it ain’t working.
[/quote]
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you Magarhe. People have all different types of training depending on what they are trying to achieve. I for one am training to get back into martial arts. I know that I have to have strength, endurance, flexibility, and be able to break several boards at least three feet over my head. So being huge and bulky won’t work for me.
Point is there is nothing wrong with being a big guy with muscles or a medium built guy with muscles…one is not better than the other or more hardcore than the other,it is just that people have to train for their sport (body developing, martial arts, gymnastics, etc.) If a 16 to 18 yr. old gets on here asking how to gain weight we should try to tell him that he is still growing and to eat clean whole foods, workout, etc., and have patience. If he decides not to listen, then it is his loss.
I think the general rule on this board is the same as most gyms, or at least how I explain gym culture to people who are intimidated by it at first.
If you are taking your routines, lifts, and eating seriously, and the gym’s (or, message board’s) regulars see you there every day trying hard and doing things the right way, no one will make fun of you. Or at least no one who knows what they’re doing will, and you can pick out the random joker in the deck pretty fast. This goes for skinny guys, fat guys, women, anyone worried about going to a gym (or message board) to lift or get advice, who can’t squat their own bodyweight or map out a clean diet. If you take this stuff seriously, other people who take it seriously will help you and won’t make fun.
If you’re a jerk who never listens to anyone, asks vague questions without doing any searches or research on your own first, only comes in when the weather gets warm or when you have a date the next Friday, and does the lifts wrong when everyone knows you’ve been shown (or should know by now) the right way, then you’re going to see people snicker at you, make jokes behind your back (or on your message board threads), and seem ‘snobby’ to you. And you’ll deserve it, because those of us who know this stuff also care about getting it right, and we don’t like to see something we care about abused by the jerks.
It’s really not complicated. And if you take it seriously and try to help yourself, then it’s not humilitating either.
[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
I think the general rule on this board is the same as most gyms, or at least how I explain gym culture to people who are intimidated by it at first.
If you are taking your routines, lifts, and eating seriously, and the gym’s (or, message board’s) regulars see you there every day trying hard and doing things the right way, no one will make fun of you. Or at least no one who knows what they’re doing will, and you can pick out the random joker in the deck pretty fast. This goes for skinny guys, fat guys, women, anyone worried about going to a gym (or message board) to lift or get advice, who can’t squat their own bodyweight or map out a clean diet. If you take this stuff seriously, other people who take it seriously will help you and won’t make fun.
If you’re a jerk who never listens to anyone, asks vague questions without doing any searches or research on your own first, only comes in when the weather gets warm or when you have a date the next Friday, and does the lifts wrong when everyone knows you’ve been shown (or should know by now) the right way, then you’re going to see people snicker at you, make jokes behind your back (or on your message board threads), and seem ‘snobby’ to you. And you’ll deserve it, because those of us who know this stuff also care about getting it right, and we don’t like to see something we care about abused by the jerks.
It’s really not complicated. And if you take it seriously and try to help yourself, then it’s not humilitating either.[/quote]
Good post. Why is it so few people understand this?
In addition, if you have been on this board for years and no one can tell you even lift weights and you can still stuff yourself into a size small or “extra medium”…what are you dong here?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
In addition, if you have been on this board for years and no one can tell you even lift weights and you can still stuff yourself into a size small or “extra medium”…what are you dong here?[/quote]
But there are valid goals apart from increasing size, and it is possible to increase relative strength/endurance without creating tooo much bulk - some size, but not too much (although hardly small or extra medium unless someone has a tiny frame, or is a girl). I’m thinking specifically of rockclimbers and fighters making weight.
My point though is: this site is one the THE best for all aspects of training and nutrition and shouldn’t be considered exclusively for bodybuilders.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Professor X wrote:
In addition, if you have been on this board for years and no one can tell you even lift weights and you can still stuff yourself into a size small or “extra medium”…what are you dong here?
But there are valid goals apart from increasing size, and it is possible to increase relative strength/endurance without creating tooo much bulk - some size, but not too much (although hardly small or extra medium unless someone has a tiny frame, or is a girl). I’m thinking specifically of rockclimbers and fighters making weight.
My point though is: this site is one the THE best for all aspects of training and nutrition and shouldn’t be considered exclusively for bodybuilders.
[/quote]
This site also seems to attract its fair share of dudes using “relative strength/endurance” as an excuse for why they aren’t making progress physically. It seems this is the convenient lie to fall back on when someone is questioned as to why they have supposedly been lifting weights for 5-10 years but don’t show one ounce of progress for all of this apparent effort. The majority of the people on this site are not rockclimbers. They aren’t pro athletes. They aren’t professional fighters. Let me guess, they all don’t want to get “too big”. It sure couldn’t be because they really don’t put as much focus or effort into their training as they pretend to, could it? You have guys here who can quote some personal trainer’s book word for word but who aren’t showing the muscle for all of this supposed book knowledge. It comes across like a cop out. Every other poster must be a professional fighter, or some athlete trying to remain in the “lightweight” class.
This new trend to avoid muscle gain seems to fit nicely into the plan of guys who really don’t try that hard. It is very easy to pretend as if your random training and subsequent minimal progress is justified because you want to actually avoid gaining anything. I could sit at home and avoid the gym and make no progress. Why are people training hard…for nothing?
Cant get big listen up! I’M an ectomorph period 135lbs. when i graduated.(98) Why was I skinny? I ran too much and ate to little. 8 years later from training and stuffing my face with tuna and noodles and enough eggs to turn into a chicken I weigh 205 now. Thats 70 lbs in 8 years 70/8 thats close to 9lbs a year doesnt seem like alot but for being natural and too poor to supplement I think is a lot for an ectomorph.
The jocks aren’t so cocky now, if I can maintain the weight gain for 2-3 more years, do the math. Stop eating like mice and using genetics as an exscuse, don’t juice it’ll kill you, go to the fridge eat eggs and wait. In the morning you will be on your way to massville. Remember the weight you lift doesn’t make your body heavier, it’s the food you are swallowing.
Picky eaters should join a sport like golf or bowling. If your skinny it’s because you eat like a mouse! Skinny people need fat because they have high metabolisms! It’s not rocket science guys… P.S. I’ll still be your friend if your a bowler.
eat!!!
[quote]Jack Squat wrote:
Picky eaters should join a sport like golf …[/quote]
Hey, I resent that! 
“Fussy eater is a euphanism for big pain in the ass.”
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Magarhe wrote:
Professor X wrote:
In addition, if you have been on this board for years and no one can tell you even lift weights and you can still stuff yourself into a size small or “extra medium”…what are you dong here?
But there are valid goals apart from increasing size, and it is possible to increase relative strength/endurance without creating tooo much bulk - some size, but not too much (although hardly small or extra medium unless someone has a tiny frame, or is a girl). I’m thinking specifically of rockclimbers and fighters making weight.
My point though is: this site is one the THE best for all aspects of training and nutrition and shouldn’t be considered exclusively for bodybuilders.
This site also seems to attract its fair share of dudes using “relative strength/endurance” as an excuse for why they aren’t making progress physically. It seems this is the convenient lie to fall back on when someone is questioned as to why they have supposedly been lifting weights for 5-10 years but don’t show one ounce of progress for all of this apparent effort. The majority of the people on this site are not rockclimbers. They aren’t pro athletes. They aren’t professional fighters. Let me guess, they all don’t want to get “too big”. It sure couldn’t be because they really don’t put as much focus or effort into their training as they pretend to, could it? You have guys here who can quote some personal trainer’s book word for word but who aren’t showing the muscle for all of this supposed book knowledge. It comes across like a cop out. Every other poster must be a professional fighter, or some athlete trying to remain in the “lightweight” class.
This new trend to avoid muscle gain seems to fit nicely into the plan of guys who really don’t try that hard. It is very easy to pretend as if your random training and subsequent minimal progress is justified because you want to actually avoid gaining anything. I could sit at home and avoid the gym and make no progress. Why are people training hard…for nothing?[/quote]
Training to increase muscle size and strength is important, but maximum strength from minimum size is a very important training goal for sports that require a specific skill. Lifting weights properly overtime is not rocket science and training hard just means intensity. Being able to have the strength and endurance to go 15 rounds in a boxing match is not a cop out no matter what weight class your in. I would like to hear some of this talk around olympic athletes.
The biggest problem isn’t the complaining. Its the lack of response to any advice. If a kid posted here, skinny as hell, and asked how he could “cut up” and why he wasn’t making progress, along with a small ass diet, he’d immidiatly get the same thing posted over and over.
“Deadlift. Bench. Squat. Eat. Sleep. Repeat for years.”
Yes, its frustrating that they don’t read ANY articles before posting (or they totally ignored them). BUT, if said kid posted again, saying how hes realized what an Idiot hes being, and posts a new diet with a huge caloric intake, and says that hes started using big heavy compounds, would everybody really stay pissed off? Hell no! We’d be proud and excited that we’ve just turned one of the pussy metro losers into a potential future T-man.
The problem is, this rarely happens. They usually post again, completely ignoring all the advice given, whining more about how there getting no progress, asking about supplements or steroids.
I remember being one of those ignorant, ignorant people who didn’t want to get “too big”. I never went lower than 3 x 10. I thought I was a “hard-gainer” and I blamed “bad genes” for my lack of progress. But I had an open mind, and I was introduced to this site by accident. I read through almost every article in the training section. I eat it all up. I’ve completely changed my lifestyle since then, taking slow steps towards a totally new me. I am content with my current progress, and its all thanks to T-Nation opening my eyes to my own stupidity.
Do not hate the ignorant. Hate the willfully ignorant. Those who have the information to help themselves, but ignore it or refuse to recognize its worth, either due to ridiculous prejudices (“too big” syndrome) or self gratifying excuses (“bad genes”).
Help the whiners. Because for every 99 skinny kids who ignore your advice completely, there’s that one kid whose gonna realize his foolish ways, and start eating and lifting like a mad man. Isn’t the addition of one more T-man on this slowly de-masculinizing earth worth putting up with the 99 morons?
The last gym I went to had a tall black guy that looked to be about college age. This dude was BIG and lean. One day in the parking lot, he and some white kid that weighed maybe 150 decided to sprint.
The guy that had at least 75 more lbs of LMB absolutely SMOKED the little guy. Stupid cracker. 
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This new trend to avoid muscle gain seems to fit nicely into the plan of guys who really don’t try that hard. It is very easy to pretend as if your random training and subsequent minimal progress is justified because you want to actually avoid gaining anything. I could sit at home and avoid the gym and make no progress. Why are people training hard…for nothing?[/quote]
Prof X I can’t agree with you more on those points and I do find it weird some people’s behaviour. I don’t know why there is a trend of avoiding muscle, if there is such a trend.
My only point was that what matters is if someone has X goals but doesn’t achieve them then THAT is the problem.
It drives me nuts when someone posts that they are wanting more mass, “but not too much, so therefore I won’t eat enough or listen to anyone who knows what they are talking about, in fact I will argue with them” and a hundred variations of the same thing.
But if someone says they want to gain a tonne of strength, only a small amount of mass if possible, and are willing to do what it takes - including eating a lot, going over-weight and reducing later etc… then that is fine with me.
I was around when TNation started but disappeared until recent months. So I am kind of new to this site, but unlike many others who are new, I dug into everything that had happened in the past 5(?) years … and I have noticed some weird trends along the way, changing attitudes etc… I don’t know where these crazy beliefs come from but they certainly are out there.
Prof X I’ve also seen your posts going from enthusiastic helpful and detailed posts to people who seem eager to make progress to shorter, angrier posts to numbnuts talking jibber jabber and arguing nonsense, I get the feeling that you feel like you are banging your head on the wall, sometimes, I get the same feeling.
All the answers are frikking out there but people are too lazy to frikking read them, and what is worse, they then argue with long established truths.
I think ultimately what these people are trying to convince themselves / prove (despite the fact that it is false) is this : that it takes little effort and can happen overnight. In other words they are trying to prove the cheesey supplement ads claims.
Also these people need to realise that whatever their ultimate aims, heavy weights and lots of food is the answer, even for “cutting up” etc… and it ain’t gonna happen otherwise.
ARGGHHHHH
This thread should be must-reading for all numbnuts in future.
My semi pro bbr friend wasted a good 5 years of training before he realised that there is NO special pill for training.
Its 60% or more from quality food.
A good Diet is the single greatest factor in gaining.
We figure that sups account for around 5-10%, Training 20-30%, diet 60-70% of all your gains.
This is why it is so frustrating to see kids complaining they arent gaining when they are actually probably loosing muscle because they are afraid of food.
Lots of good quality food is the greatest anabolic ever.
You can cut and paste that single sentence to at least 20 threads a week here and solve the posters problem.
Combine that with a SIMPLE training program and you will gain. Simple as that.
I dont care if you have the worst form at the gym or cannot lift a 5 pound wieght.
Shit, even if you have a seriously good diet behind you, all you have to do is WALK into the gym and walk out and you will probably gain more LBM than most of the 155 pounders here.
Regards,
mp
[quote]maxx power wrote:
Lots of good quality food is the greatest anabolic ever.
You can cut and paste that single sentence to at least 20 threads a week here and solve the posters problem.
[/quote]
But they won’t read it, believe it, or do it, most of the time. And sometimes, they will instead ARGUE against it. Without trying it. ARGH!
But yeah, well said.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
maxx power wrote:
Lots of good quality food is the greatest anabolic ever.
You can cut and paste that single sentence to at least 20 threads a week here and solve the posters problem.
But they won’t read it, believe it, or do it, most of the time. And sometimes, they will instead ARGUE against it. Without trying it. ARGH!
But yeah, well said.
[/quote]
I completely agree with maxx power, too, and that so many people will try to argue with you about it. It gets frustrating as hell for those of us who know and care about this stuff to have to argue with people about things that we know about and they don’t. But because we care about it, we keep coming back day after day, trying to teach people and help them improve themselves.
It seems like it’s a no-win situation. People ask you for advice because you’re the biggest, most proficient, whatever guy in the gym, or have the most posts on the message board. But they also feel the need to argue with you for the same reason–as if it’s from resentment for your skill/knowledge about fitness, the very thing they want to know about. I teach at a University and run into this all the time. A lot of people today have grown up to resent any form of dedication and knowledge, and they feel like they need to reject it.
[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
I completely agree with maxx power, too, and that so many people will try to argue with you about it. It gets frustrating as hell for those of us who know and care about this stuff to have to argue with people about things that we know about and they don’t. But because we care about it, we keep coming back day after day, trying to teach people and help them improve themselves.
It seems like it’s a no-win situation. People ask you for advice because you’re the biggest, most proficient, whatever guy in the gym, or have the most posts on the message board. But they also feel the need to argue with you for the same reason–as if it’s from resentment for your skill/knowledge about fitness, the very thing they want to know about. I teach at a University and run into this all the time. A lot of people today have grown up to resent any form of dedication and knowledge, and they feel like they need to reject it.
[/quote]
Nobody likes to be informed that they have been training wrong for years.
But when you get older, you tend to thank the person instead of getting agry.
I wish I had found this site 15 years ago, but then again, 15 years ago I would have argued too.
[quote]maxx power wrote:
I wish I had found this site 15 years ago, but then again, 15 years ago I would have argued too.
[/quote]
I wouldn’t have. I was never like that. Anyone bigger than me in the gym would get asked any question I could think of. Even if I heard something different from someone else just five minutes before, I listened and processed it. I don’t understand someone who would go up to someone who had acheived more than them and argue with them about how they got there. That’s beyond stupid and I truly can’t relate.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
maxx power wrote:
I wish I had found this site 15 years ago, but then again, 15 years ago I would have argued too.
I wouldn’t have. I was never like that. Anyone bigger than me in the gym would get asked any question I could think of. Even if I heard something different from someone else just five minutes before, I listened and processed it. I don’t understand someone who would go up to someone who had acheived more than them and argue with them about how they got there. That’s beyond stupid and I truly can’t relate.[/quote]
I agree that a lot of kids want the immediate effect, so they would rather buy a supplement and do the easier lifts in the weight room. Like I said, it is their loss. Some kids are still growing and they want to take TRIBEX or whatever. That’s pretty sad. I have also noticed a lot of guys saying they weigh 215 lbs. with 10% bodyfat but without providing any pics. I always see the same scenario in any gym I have worked out in. I see guys with muscular arms and stocky barrel-bodies packed with intra-abdominal fat. Yellow fat hanging from their livers. This does NOT define bodybuilding, fitness, or even remotely being in shape. To think that that is an achievement is beyond stupid.