[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
So interesting coversation so far. However, why are humans the only ones that seem to have a spiritual belief (not to turn this into a evo vs. creation debate)[/quote]
Because we are the court jester of the animal kingdom?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
So interesting coversation so far. However, why are humans the only ones that seem to have a spiritual belief (not to turn this into a evo vs. creation debate)[/quote]
Because we are the court jester of the animal kingdom?
[/quote]
Because we are the only ones that have the capacity to think abstractly?
You could put morals, right and wrong, love, beauty, and on and on and on into the same category. Things that almost all humans believe in without logical reason or justification.
Like I was saying modern humans are about the most irrational beings on the planet.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
So interesting coversation so far. However, why are humans the only ones that seem to have a spiritual belief (not to turn this into a evo vs. creation debate)[/quote]
In no particular order…James Austin, V.S. Ramachandran, Newberg+D’Aquili, Rick Strassman, Antonio Damasio, Douglass Hofstadter, Brian Greene, Philip von Looke, Thomas Metzinger, E.H. Walker, Seth LLoyd
An even dozen to get you started…all of these authors have written on the subject of human consciousness and the “spiritual Dimensions” thereof. I also chose them because they are pretty accessible to the lay reader (well, some of them maybe not so much.)
You seem very interested in the subject. Go read some books and take some classes. Report back in twenty-five years.
And, other animals do exhibit ritualized behaviors that would seem to have religious, spiritual, or ceremonial connotations (e.g ceremonies for the dead, purposeful ingestion of psychedelic compounds, etc.)
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
And, other animals do exhibit ritualized behaviors that would seem to have religious, spiritual, or ceremonial connotations (e.g ceremonies for the dead, purposeful ingestion of psychedelic compounds, etc.)
[/quote]
The ladder are more correctly identified in the domain partimus, kingdom animalia. or, in layman’s terms, party animals.
Seriously though, I don’t know that activities like this necessarily qualify on the same level as human spirituality. My biggest question would be whether or not these were acquired, conscious decisions, or more instinctual. If these behaviors are more instinctively driven, I wouldn’t count them as rituals pertaining to spiritual beliefs any more than I would count an elephant’s ritualistic trip to a watering hole as evidence of an abstract belief in thirst.
Although I guess you could argue human spirituality is on at least some level instinctual.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
And, other animals do exhibit ritualized behaviors that would seem to have religious, spiritual, or ceremonial connotations (e.g ceremonies for the dead, purposeful ingestion of psychedelic compounds, etc.)
[/quote]
The ladder are more correctly identified in the domain partimus, kingdom animalia. or, in layman’s terms, party animals.
Seriously though, I don’t know that activities like this necessarily qualify on the same level as human spirituality. My biggest question would be whether or not these were acquired, conscious decisions, or more instinctual. If these behaviors are more instinctively driven, I wouldn’t count them as rituals pertaining to spiritual beliefs any more than I would count an elephant’s ritualistic trip to a watering hole as evidence of an abstract belief in thirst.
Although I guess you could argue human spirituality is on at least some level instinctual.[/quote]
Why did you need to bring that up? Now, he’s going to be asking about free will (I’m assuming honest_lifter is a dude.)
This is pretty much off topic, because Nancy Boy completely pretty much answered the thread in his “book report”, but I’ve watched a LOT of documentaries on gorillas and monkeys and god damn if we’re not very similar. I’ve seen monkeys do almost all the stuff we do socially, I’ve seen them appreciate views and surroundings, I’ve seen them figuring things out and helping each other out.
To say we’re the only creatures capable of spiritual thoughts, high level communication, empathy etc is very narrow minded.
I’m also always amazed at ape strength. It’s retarded.
[quote]Nancy Boy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
And, other animals do exhibit ritualized behaviors that would seem to have religious, spiritual, or ceremonial connotations (e.g ceremonies for the dead, purposeful ingestion of psychedelic compounds, etc.)
[/quote]
The ladder are more correctly identified in the domain partimus, kingdom animalia. or, in layman’s terms, party animals.
Seriously though, I don’t know that activities like this necessarily qualify on the same level as human spirituality. My biggest question would be whether or not these were acquired, conscious decisions, or more instinctual. If these behaviors are more instinctively driven, I wouldn’t count them as rituals pertaining to spiritual beliefs any more than I would count an elephant’s ritualistic trip to a watering hole as evidence of an abstract belief in thirst.
Although I guess you could argue human spirituality is on at least some level instinctual.[/quote]
Why did you need to bring that up? Now, he’s going to be asking about free will (I’m assuming honest_lifter is a dude.)
[/quote]
Yup. I know. I’m just trying to keep the pot stirred. Now go debate if there is a true quantifiable difference between an “intellectual” decision and a “lower” brain function like a reflex or desire (hunger sleep est.) (other than being different parts of the brain).
Aren’t learned behaviors just highly adaptive instincts?
I think you’re using the word “adaptive” very loosely there. There’s a lot of good work on the learning instinct and mimicry in humans and other animals though.
You guys are anthropomorphizing you see there habits and deem them as rituals, something human. It could be, but we don’t really know.
[quote]Nancy Boy wrote:
I think you’re using the word “adaptive” very loosely there. There’s a lot of good work on the learning instinct and mimicry in humans and other animals though.[/quote]
I’ve read some of the books my mom has on early childhood development (she teaches special needs kids). It’s pretty interesting stuff.
Ironically, children tend to mimic anything they are taught, outside of practical application, apes tend to mimic only what is logically practical for what they want. It seems children are really more mimic oriented than monkeys. A child is programmed to follow the example of authority.
BUT, what I’m really trying to get at is whether there is a real difference in the decisions made between higher and lower orders of animals. Other than the mechanism being more complex and therefor “better”. More synopsis, larger brain area est.
[quote]drewh wrote:
You guys are anthropomorphizing you see there habits and deem them as rituals, something human. It could be, but we don’t really know.[/quote]
If anything, I think DoubleDuce and myself could be accused of zoomorphizing human behavior. I believe we both expressed that the topic as it applies to humans and other animals is ambiguous at best.
(Sorry to speak for you DD, but from my reading of your posts it seemed that you were also stating that the matter was uncertain.)
[quote]drewh wrote:
You guys are anthropomorphizing you see there habits and deem them as rituals, something human. It could be, but we don’t really know.[/quote]
One more thing…Although your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking (as evidenced by your inability to understand qualifying phrases like “would seem” and “I don’t know that…”) your Sho’nuff avatar kicks ass.