No Alpha Males?

Interesting read found on reddit.

[quote]I’m an Evolutionary Anthropologist who’s studied mate selection/choice and has worked with a few non-human species. There are many misconceptions I see in this post and the comment section.
Humans don’t have alpha males. We, as a species, are incredibly egalitarian. You can tell we are by the fact that we use grins as a means to show happiness rather than fear. In species with alphas (which includes alpha females, btw), there is often a strict dominance heirarchy in one or both of the sexes. In species without a strict dominance heirarchy amongst males (white-faced capuchins for example), the dominance hierarchy normally goes alpha, beta (second in command), and then the rest of the males jockey for position. Occasionally you have a male who everyone picks on, but that varies from time to time.
In species with alphas, the alpha males aren’t always the biggest, meanest males. In fact, as Frans de Waal has noted in many of his books and many other of us have noticed, the Alpha Male is often a smaller male. The biggest, meanest males are normally ‘betas’ (as we call them at our study site) which is a male that is second-in-command to the alpha and typically mates with the daughters and grand-daughters of the alpha if the alpha lives long enough. The betas rarely get to be alphas because they are huge jerks and no one likes a huge jerk.
In socially intelligent species (like us), the alphas are the ones with the best social strategies. AFAIK, the longest running Alpha Male in history is Pablo, a white-faced capuchin who ruled for at least 19 years. Pablo wasn’t particularly big or mean (in fact, the alpha female, Mezcula, kicked more ass than he did), but he was incredibly socially intelligent. He would play favorites with the subordinate males so that they never knew who was most in his favor. When he saw the others forming alliances against them, he kicked them out or put them back in line. By the time he was finally overthrown, he was overthrown by the biggest, baddest monkey I’ve ever seen, but that big old baddy is quite a softie when it comes to the ladies, babies, and allies. He only fucks you up when you try to fight him. Despite the fact that he’s a huge, dangerous monkey, he only was able to keep ahold of the group with the group’s support. Also, that big, huge male? He tried to take over another group and couldn’t because the ladies didn’t like him after he killed a baby. He kept getting chased from the group by a delicate older female.
The Alpha Male only rules by the acceptance of the others, particularly the alpha female. This pertains more to primates, as I’ve not studied alphas in non-human primates, and those might be different, but I watched a power struggle between several males trying to take over a group and the Alpha Male trying to hold onto to his power and do you know who was most important to the struggle? The alpha female. He knew that without her and her support, he’d never stay in charge so he sucked up to her every single chance he got. Even though he was twice her size and could easily beat her in a one-on-one fight, if he upset her, she’d turn all the other females (and support other males) against him and he’d never stay on. That big huge dude I mentioned earlier? He once got into a fight with the alpha female, Mezcula, who was half his size and twice as old and he was screaming and terribly upset that she and her daughter were chasing him around. They patched up afterwards and spooned together (she’s the big spoon), but in that moment, she dominated him. Pablo, the long running Alpha Male, not only ruled by being socially smart, but also being one of the sweetest males. He would groom anyone (normally grooming goes up the hierarchy, not down), even low-ranking males. Because of his kindness, he got a lot of support and his group managed to dominate a lot of the forest, with the majority of the alpha males in the area his sons, leaving him the most reproductively successful male. [/quote]

This guy sounds like a pussy looking for a wordy justification. Walk in to any organization in the US and you’ll find clear lines of dominant authority.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Them der wordy thangs are too big fo me n he just a sissy. Im the boss round these here parts o texas. YEE HAWWW!!! [/quote]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
This guy sounds like a pussy looking for a wordy justification. Walk in to any organization in the US and you’ll find clear lines of dominant authority.[/quote]

It sounds to me like he is saying that simply being the biggest and the strongest dosen’t necessarily insure alpha status.

Which is very true.

[quote]
Humans don’t have alpha males. We, as a species, are incredibly egalitarian… .In species with alphas, there is often a strict dominance hierarchy in one or both of the sexes. …In species with alphas, the alpha males aren’t always the biggest, meanest males… the Alpha Male is often a smaller male. The biggest, meanest males are normally ‘betas’ which is a male that is second-in-command to the alpha…In socially intelligent species (like us), the alphas are the ones with the best social strategies…The Alpha Male only rules by the acceptance of the others, particularly the alpha female[/quote]

The author just described the defining qualities of most, if not all political leaders.

So yes, we do have alpha males and betas too, in the form of military leaders who back up the alpha with physical power. Human betas also tend to have the more agressive demeanour.

There’s also the ultimate Alpha Male of Western civilisation; God and his ‘beta’ Jesus. Even if you don’t believe in them, you still have to swear an oath on the Bible if you end up in court.

[quote]roybot wrote:
Even if you don’t believe in them, you still have to swear an oath on the Bible if you end up in court.

[/quote]

I believe that is incorrect. You can just affirm that you will tell the truth. No religion necessary.

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
This guy sounds like a pussy looking for a wordy justification. Walk in to any organization in the US and you’ll find clear lines of dominant authority.[/quote]

It sounds to me like he is saying that simply being the biggest and the strongest dosen’t necessarily insure alpha status.

Which is very true.[/quote]
I agree. I disagree that the manipulative wieners in the background become the “alpha”, however.

The smartest, most influential, most confident males will always be the leaders. There are studies showing tall males tend to rise to more prominent positions than their shorter counterparts, demonstrating an important if subliminal aspect to “traditional” alpha perception and mentality.

Under intelligent monkeys may not be able to recognize manipulation but humans do and manipulative people are often pariahs.

This guy is playing semantics, nothing genuinly intuitive in his theory at all.

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Them der wordy thangs are too big fo me n he just a sissy. Im the boss round these here parts o texas. YEE HAWWW!!! [/quote]
[/quote]
Most intelligent use of bandwidth ever, sir. Thank you for your contribution.

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
Even if you don’t believe in them, you still have to swear an oath on the Bible if you end up in court.

[/quote]

I believe that is incorrect. You can just affirm that you will tell the truth. No religion necessary.[/quote]

I didn’t check that before I posted - am I correct in assuming that only happened relatively recently? Even so, the option to swear on the Bible is still there, so the oath, or the intention of it - to submit yourself to a higher power - also remains. Is the oath still an oath if it’s optional?

The general point was that the influence of religion has shaped aspects of our society, so the shadow of God is still there, looming over us, whether you believe or not. The oath was just one example.

I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
Even if you don’t believe in them, you still have to swear an oath on the Bible if you end up in court.

[/quote]

I believe that is incorrect. You can just affirm that you will tell the truth. No religion necessary.[/quote]

I didn’t check that before I posted - am I correct in assuming that only happened relatively recently? Even so, the option to swear on the Bible is still there, so the oath, or the intention of it - to submit yourself to a higher power - also remains. Is the oath still an oath if it’s optional?

The general point was that the influence of religion has shaped aspects of our society, so the shadow of God is still there, looming over us, whether you believe or not. The oath was just one example.

[/quote]

In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Maryland law requiring notaries public to swear that they believed in God. In 1991, a federal appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a judge to compel an atheist prospective juror to either swear or affirm, since either oath could be viewed as essentially religious. Today, while mandating that witnesses swear an oath of some sort, federal and most state rules of evidence do not require any mention of God.

http://undergod.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000064

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
This guy sounds like a pussy looking for a wordy justification. Walk in to any organization in the US and you’ll find clear lines of dominant authority.[/quote]

It sounds to me like he is saying that simply being the biggest and the strongest dosen’t necessarily insure alpha status.

Which is very true.[/quote]
Also he did specifically say humans don’t have alpha males, which is complete bullshit, however “alphas” gained their status. Any organization, from a cub scout troop to a military hierarchy will have a leader; what ever name you want to use.

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
Even if you don’t believe in them, you still have to swear an oath on the Bible if you end up in court.

[/quote]

I believe that is incorrect. You can just affirm that you will tell the truth. No religion necessary.[/quote]

I didn’t check that before I posted - am I correct in assuming that only happened relatively recently? Even so, the option to swear on the Bible is still there, so the oath, or the intention of it - to submit yourself to a higher power - also remains. Is the oath still an oath if it’s optional?

The general point was that the influence of religion has shaped aspects of our society, so the shadow of God is still there, looming over us, whether you believe or not. The oath was just one example.

[/quote]

In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Maryland law requiring notaries public to swear that they believed in God. In 1991, a federal appeals court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a judge to compel an atheist prospective juror to either swear or affirm, since either oath could be viewed as essentially religious. Today, while mandating that witnesses swear an oath of some sort, federal and most state rules of evidence do not require any mention of God.

http://undergod.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000064[/quote]

Fair enough. Still plenty of other examples out there.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.[/quote]

We are not pack animals, we are however a highly social species with a dominance based hierarchy.

We just really, really do not like to be bullied which is why the most aggressive, dominant male more often than not is not the leader of the group.

We prefer our leader relatively dumb and weak.

Egalitarian society is ‘‘explained’’ chiefly in terms of ecological or social factors that are self-organizing. However, egalitarian behavior is found in a wide variety of social and ecological settings, and the indications are that such societies are deliberately shaped by their members. This paper looks to egalitarian behavior as an instance of domination of leaders by their own followers, who are guided by an ethos that disapproves of hierarchical behavior in general and of bossiness in leaders in particular. A substantial cross-cultural survey reveals the specific mechanisms by which the political rank and file creates a reverse dominance hierarchy, an anomalous social arrangement which has important implications for cross-phylogenetic comparisons and for the theory of state formation.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
This guy sounds like a pussy looking for a wordy justification. Walk in to any organization in the US and you’ll find clear lines of dominant authority.[/quote]

It sounds to me like he is saying that simply being the biggest and the strongest dosen’t necessarily insure alpha status.

Which is very true.[/quote]
I agree. I disagree that the manipulative wieners in the background become the “alpha”, however.

The smartest, most influential, most confident males will always be the leaders. There are studies showing tall males tend to rise to more prominent positions than their shorter counterparts, demonstrating an important if subliminal aspect to “traditional” alpha perception and mentality.

Under intelligent monkeys may not be able to recognize manipulation but humans do and manipulative people are often pariahs.

This guy is playing semantics, nothing genuinly intuitive in his theory at all.[/quote]

At a recent recruiting event for high potentials I noticed that literally all guys (yes, literally, I had an overview of one lecture hall with maybe 200 people) were 5’11 and above, many of the corporate big shots considerably taller.
And again, literally ALL the women were taller than average, hot in varying degrees and not A SINGLE fatty.

Coincidence?

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.[/quote]

Im pretty sure we are pack animals, look at any point in history. Theirs always been a pack leader/king/chief whatever. We dependent on each other for nearly everything. You could say that the entire world is a pack.

Vagina Boob.

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.[/quote]

Im pretty sure we are pack animals, look at any point in history. Theirs always been a pack leader/king/chief whatever. We dependent on each other for nearly everything. You could say that the entire world is a pack.

Vagina Boob.[/quote]

Feral children…

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.[/quote]

We are not pack animals, we are however a highly social species with a dominance based hierarchy.

We just really, really do not like to be bullied which is why the most aggressive, dominant male more often than not is not the leader of the group.

We prefer our leader relatively dumb and weak.[/quote]

I think the human tendency to be social is all due to nuture and convenience…habit really.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
I didn’t realize people thought that alpha shit was real.

Always assumed it was a joke.

Humans are not pack animals. A person can be content living alone forever without needing an alphas guidance…

Fuck, the only reason we started living nearby was for food…pretty much still the only reason.[/quote]

We are not pack animals, we are however a highly social species with a dominance based hierarchy.

We just really, really do not like to be bullied which is why the most aggressive, dominant male more often than not is not the leader of the group.

We prefer our leader relatively dumb and weak.[/quote]

I think the human tendency to be social is all due to nuture and convenience…habit really.

[/quote]

Sooooo… why can we read facial expressions? Are capable of empathy? Have a theory of the mind? Can lie? Are able to build alliances?