Ok I’ll show my ignorance what is/are DOMS?
Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness
[quote]Hunt wrote:
Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness[/quote]
Ah ok. Thanks.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Agua? It is probably lactic acid buildup from your training that causes the soreness. I’d recommend a gallon of h20 daily and some cardio now and then.
If not just man up, I know that being sore usually means my body has to repair something and in this case it’s muscle. When muscle is repaired it is usually bigger so…well…you get the idea. lol
Gerdy
Soreness has NOTHING to do with lactic acid. This is an old myth from the 70s that has been shown to be completely false.[/quote]
Not doubting you Thibs but can I see a link or something that proves otherwise. I will search as well…
I sometimes get “knots” in my back…“knot” is the term that a messuese(sp?) uses. I asked my doctor what they were exactly and he told me that they were a buildup of lactic acid. This caused the pain and soreness I was experiencing.
Also one of the reasons, in baseball, that pitchers run so much isn’t just for the conditioning but to relieve a “lactic acid buildup” from throwing. The running is supposedly there to help the pitcher be less sore and recover faster.
That is what my coach has said and some major league coaches. Then again they are baseball coaches and not physiologists, etc. lol
Thanks
Gerdy
[quote]BigKDawg wrote:
crod266 wrote:
I acualy like sorness because I know I worked it to the muscle to the fullest, Im not complaining just curious. And yea i take bcaa.
Look it at like this… soreness is just a subjective indictator of your training that doesnt exactly give you a good direction whether your training/practice with the weights is improving. Whereas logging your WO’s on the regular will give you an a quantifiable and measureable way to check your progress and make changes as needed. [/quote]
Your in bodybuilding site, moving more weight is not the only measure of progress. Bodybuilders do more volume, thus would have more soreness then a powerlifter. Some people don’t get as sore, thats fine but some do and it tends to be a good indicator for me. I’m making progress, and I tend to get very sore most of the time and I know its not because of diet or lack of sleep.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
wow i guess ive never taken 85% my bodyweight in protein anytime ive trained then. i wonder how my lifts keep going up?[/quote]
Clearly someone has fucked up.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Agua? It is probably lactic acid buildup from your training that causes the soreness. I’d recommend a gallon of h20 daily and some cardio now and then.
If not just man up, I know that being sore usually means my body has to repair something and in this case it’s muscle. When muscle is repaired it is usually bigger so…well…you get the idea. lol
Gerdy
Soreness has NOTHING to do with lactic acid. This is an old myth from the 70s that has been shown to be completely false.[/quote]
Thibs, i was under the impression we still don’t KNOW everything about DOMS - exactly where it comes from, whether waste products, micro-tears… possibly both (my bet, i staying on the fence!)…
I may be wrong of course?
Joe
[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Agua? It is probably lactic acid buildup from your training that causes the soreness. I’d recommend a gallon of h20 daily and some cardio now and then.
If not just man up, I know that being sore usually means my body has to repair something and in this case it’s muscle. When muscle is repaired it is usually bigger so…well…you get the idea. lol
Gerdy
Soreness has NOTHING to do with lactic acid. This is an old myth from the 70s that has been shown to be completely false.
Not doubting you Thibs but can I see a link or something that proves otherwise. I will search as well…
I sometimes get “knots” in my back…“knot” is the term that a messuese(sp?) uses. I asked my doctor what they were exactly and he told me that they were a buildup of lactic acid. This caused the pain and soreness I was experiencing.
Also one of the reasons, in baseball, that pitchers run so much isn’t just for the conditioning but to relieve a “lactic acid buildup” from throwing. The running is supposedly there to help the pitcher be less sore and recover faster.
That is what my coach has said and some major league coaches. Then again they are baseball coaches and not physiologists, etc. lol
Thanks
Gerdy[/quote]
Heck, baseball coaches are still recommending doing static stretching before games even though it has been shown repetitively to decrease strength and power!
Not to mention the use of a weighted bat to warm-up which actually DECREASES bat speed instead of increasing it because it screws up the motor pattern.
Why? Tradition! That’s why.
Lactic acids is actually ‘‘recycled’’. It can even be used to produce energy. It is not a bad substance, quite the contrary.
Soreness is most likely due to the release of pain inducing substances from the micro-tears/micro-injuries that occurs during training.
Now, over time your body become desensitized to the pain signal (higher pain threshold) which explains why you will get less and less sore as you stick to a program more and more.
It also explains why after a period without training you are sore again when you begin to train: you are resensitized to pain.
Mechanisms of exercise-induced delayed onset muscular soreness: a brief review.
BRIEF REVIEW
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 16(6):529-538, December 1984.
ARMSTRONG, R. B.
Abstract:
ARMSTRONG, R.B. Mechanisms of exercise-induced delayed onset muscular soreness: a brief review. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 16, No. 6, pp. 529-538, 1984. Delayed-onset muscular soreness (DOMS), the sensation of pain and stiffness in the muscles that occurs from 1 to 5 d following unaccustomed exercise, can adversely affect muscular performance, both from voluntary reduction of effort and from inherent loss of capacity of the muscles to produce force.
This reduction in performance is temporary; permanent impairment does not occur. A number of clinical correlates are associated with DOMS, including elevations in plasma enzymes, myoglobinemia, and abnormal muscle histology and ultrastructure; exertional rhabdomyolysis appears to be the extreme form of DOMS. Presently, the best treatment for DOMS appears to be muscular activity, although the sensation again returns following the exercise.
Training for the specific contractile activity that causes DOMS reduces the soreness response. The etiology and cellular mechanisms of DOMS are not known, but a number of hypotheses exist to explain the phenomenon.
The following model may be proposed: 1) high tensions (particularly those associated with eccentric exercise) in the contractile/elastic system of the muscle result in structural damage; 2) cell membrane damage leads to disruption of Ca++ homeostasis in the injured fibers, resulting in necrosis that peaks about 2 d post-exercise; and 3) products of macrophage activity and intracellular contents accumulate in the interstitium, which in turn stimulate free nerve endings of group-IV sensory neurons in the muscles leading to the sensation of DOMS.
Exercise-induced muscle damage and inflammation: fact or fiction?
C. Malm1 Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden and Stockholm University College of Physical Education Sports, Stockholm, Sweden
Abstract
Physical exercise is necessary for maintaining normal function of skeletal muscle. The mechanisms governing normal muscle function and maintenance are vastly unknown but synergistic function of hormones, neurosignalling, growth factors, cytokines and other factors, is undoubtedly important. Because of the complex interaction among these systems the lack of complete understanding of muscle function is not surprising. The purpose of exercise-induced changes in muscle cell function is to adapt the tissue to a demand of increased physical work capacity.
Some of the approaches used to investigate changes in skeletal muscle cell function are exercise and electrical stimulation in animals and human models and isolated animal muscle. From these models, it has been concluded that during physical exercise, in an intensity and duration dependent manner, skeletal muscle is damaged and subsequently inflamed.
The purpose of the inflammation would be to repair the exercise-induced damage. Because of the design and methods used in a majority of these studies, concerns must be raised, and the question asked whether the paradigm of exercise-induced muscle inflammation in fact is fiction. In a majority of conducted studies, a non-exercising control group is lacking and because of the invasive nature of the sampling methods used to study inflammation it does not appear impossible that observed inflammatory events in human skeletal muscle after physical exercise are methodoligical artefacts.
The emerging role of free radicals in delayed onset muscle soreness and contraction-induced muscle injury
Graeme L. Closea, , , Tony Ashtona, Anne McArdlea and Don P.M. MacLarenb
Abstract
The first reported reference to delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) was that by Theodore Hough in 1902. Hough stated that when an untrained skeletal muscle performed exercise, it often resulted in discomfort that did not manifest until 8�??10 h post-exercise, and concluded that this could not be solely attributed to fatigue.
Since Hough’s initial observation there has been a proliferation in research into DOMS, and despite this, the exact aetiology remains unclear. This review explores the concept of DOMS in relation to the likely causative factors and also discusses possible reasons for the equivocal findings in the literature. Free radicals are unquestionably produced during and following various forms of contractile activity and are known to result in skeletal muscle damage.
Given the link between DOMS and contraction-induced muscle damage, post-exercise free radical production has been associated with DOMS; however, the precise nature of this relationship remains unsubstantiated. This review will address free radical production during and following exercise, discuss methods of assessing their generation, and critically evaluate their relationship with DOMS.
There is increasing literature to suggest that free radicals act as signalling molecules, specifically activating redox sensitive transcription factors, which are necessary for muscle regeneration and adaptation following damage. Consequently free radicals may play a key physiological role in the aetiology of DOMS as opposed to a pathological role. Evidence for and against free radicals causing DOMS will be presented, and finally a suggested role of free radicals in DOMS will be proposed.
I also suggest that you go read:
It gives a complete description of what causes DOMS.
D.O.M.S. - WHAT IS IT?
"Muscle soreness that correlates with microscopic muscle damage, oedema, a loss of strength. Causes actual rupture/micro-trauma of connective tissue, muscle fibres, spasm in a fatigued muscles, extensive pulling which traumatises the muscle.
Muscle damage can occur predominantly in two ways. Firstly, damage can occur during the exercise itself, i.e. a specific injury, sprain or tear of the muscle. The second type of damage isn’t permanent and usually subsides within a few days, although it can cause great discomfort. This is D.O.M.S… Exercise induced muscle damage is a common complaint. It occurs after unaccustomed activity and results in stiffness and soreness and movement limitation, which may be noticeable as soon as eight hours after exercise and peaks around 24-72 hours post exercise. Unfortunately this not only affects training, but also puts the less enthusiastic exerciser off!
“Excessive training characterised by long lasting fatigue
and worsening of competitive performance with further
attempts to improve physical condition” Michael Gleeson,
1997.
Eccentric training also includes sports such as triathlon, marathon/fell running etc. that have large periods of running downhill. Plyometrics also have a large stretch reflex action which can induce D.O.M.S…
Muscle Changes: During the initial bout of exercise
several things occur and alter the muscle structure; Z band streaming is the process that occurs as a result of repeated eccentric exercise. Actin and myosin x-bridge formation provide a tension which, when the muscle lengthens, disappears. This causes the passive structure (Z-lines) to take the brunt of the loading and they are pulled apart. This damage sets off regional necrosis. The muscle cells ‘leak’ cell proteins such as creatine kinase, myoglobin, lactate dehydrogenase, myosin and actin. The inflammation process increases cell membrane permeability allowing these proteins to escape as well as structural damage of sarcoplasmic reticulum. It appears that Type II fast twitch muscle fibres are more prone to exercise induced muscle damage
Regarding the lactic acid theory:
4.1 Lactic acid theory
As already indicated above, it was first thought that lactic acid accumulation with severe exercise was responsible for the muscle soreness experienced acutely with exercise as well as the delayed soreness experienced 23 days following exercise (Asmussen, 1956). This is still widely believed among lay persons in the exercise community, even though a number of observations indirectly indicate that this is not the case.
In the studies conducted by Watrous, Armstrong and Schwane (1981), Schwane, Johnson, Vandenakker and Armstrong (1981), and Schwane, Watrous, Johnson and Armstrong(1983), the investigators ran subjects 45 minutes on a treadmill at both 0 and -10° incline at 78 and 58% VO2max, respectively, to study the correlation of delayed soreness and plasma lactate dehydrogenase (LHD) activity. Blood lactic acid concentration and subjective sensations of
muscular soreness were assessed at intervals for 72 hours after the runs.
Results: Lactic acid concentration was significantly increased during running on the level, but subjects experienced no significant post-exercise muscular
soreness. Lactic acid was never elevated in downhill runners, but subjects experienced significant delayedonset
soreness. These results show that lactic acid is not related to exercise-induced delayed-onset muscle
soreness (Schwane, Watrous, Johnson & Armstrong, 1983, p. 124; Francis, 1983, p. 11).
wow thanks for all that Thib
after reading all that i feel i just gave birth to a phd.
If anyone wants to give me the cliff notes version go ahead, I don’t really want to read all of that.
[quote]
Heck, baseball coaches are still recommending doing static stretching before games even though it has been shown repetitively to decrease strength and power!
Not to mention the use of a weighted bat to warm-up which actually DECREASES bat speed instead of increasing it because it screws up the motor pattern.
Why? Tradition! That’s why.
Lactic acids is actually ‘‘recycled’’. It can even be used to produce energy. It is not a bad substance, quite the contrary.
Soreness is most likely due to the release of pain inducing substances from the micro-tears/micro-injuries that occurs during training.
Now, over time your body become desensitized to the pain signal (higher pain threshold) which explains why you will get less and less sore as you stick to a program more and more.
It also explains why after a period without training you are sore again when you begin to train: you are resensitized to pain.[/quote]
Thank you CT for all of that info. It is great!
I totally agree that most baseball coaches don’t know wtf they are doing when regarding anything outside of the sport itself.
I personally never liked a warm up bat. I can warm up perfectly fine with a normal bat.
My question here is: on a bench press if I do a couple warm up sets my maximum 1 repetition goes up than just lifting cold. So, with swinging a weighted bat can’t you “warm” up the muscles required for swinging and get a better results when striking a ball? Like I said I can do it perfectly fine with a normal bat.
I don’t need links and stuff to this, your opinion/knowledge is enough for me. lol (sorry for always thinking opposite of what is proven, that’s just how my mind works until every possible aspect I could think of is proven wrong 
)
Also, what would be those “lactic acid knots” that develop in my back due to lifting/exercising. The only reason I ask is because the Doctor described them as that.
Thank you for your time CT.
Gerdy
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Agua? It is probably lactic acid buildup from your training that causes the soreness. I’d recommend a gallon of h20 daily and some cardio now and then.
If not just man up, I know that being sore usually means my body has to repair something and in this case it’s muscle. When muscle is repaired it is usually bigger so…well…you get the idea. lol
Gerdy
Soreness has NOTHING to do with lactic acid. This is an old myth from the 70s that has been shown to be completely false.[/quote]
Have they finally figured out what exactly causes it, then? Or simply ruled lactic acid out?
Yes, I know lifting heavy weights causes it, smarties, but was wondering if the underlying mechanism/chemistry had been discovered yet.
Edit:
Whoops! good idea to read the WHOLE thread before posting. Apologies.
If the moderator would be kind enough to rub me out, it’d be much appreciated…
Great post Thibs.
I really enjoy this stuff, cheers.
(be back in a month!!)
Joe