I’ve been pulsing and doing the para-workout plan for two weeks now and yes, it works. I don’t use Finibars as i had an order of Surge Workout Fuel on the way when i first read the thread on it. I’ve been using PeptroPro (tastes like ass) for the CH. Anyway, been using DoggCrapp which used to leave me sore for days but that’s not the case anymore. Recovery is quick and the changes in the mirror are noticeable. I’ll never be able to afford Anaconda, and PeptoPro is affordable so this is what i’ll be using from now on.
Not to tell you what to do BBB but I think you should reconsider your dosing of CH …
Here’s a quote from TP’s forum about Hydrolysed proteins
"Proteins are dehydration polymers of amino acids. If you think of amino acids as lego pieces then a protein would be the lego castle. When I say dehydration polymer, I mean whenever you join two amino acids, you kick out 1 molecule of water (the oxygen and two hydrogens of the water were formally part of the amino acids).
If you have a polypeptide made of 10 amino acids, you would have 9 peptide bonds. To digest that polypeptide into 9 amino acids you would need 9 molecules of water. This reverse reaction to make amino acids back from peptides is actually extremely slow under the conditions in our stomach which is why we need enzymes to speed up the reaction via catalysis.
When a polypeptide starts getting really big (100’s or thousands of amino acids all linked into one molecule) it gets folded into a special 3-D globular shape and it is this that people call “protein.”
Our digestive system however will only absorb small peptides and free amino acids, so all protein you ingest must be “hydrolyzed” meaning enzymes called proteases and acid in our stomach cause water molecules to break the peptide bonds reforming smaller peptides and even free amino acids.
This takes time. Whenever you buy a “hydrolyzed protein” it means that the hydrolysis has already been done by the manufacturer. They actually just use a special solution with the right concentration of a batch of various protease enzymes and let it react until you have the desired level of break-down.
What makes PeptoPro special? You notice above I said “various proteases” this is because each individual protease specializes for binding to a specific peptide sequence and cleaving at that specific spot only. So to completely digest a protein our pancreas secrets a good number of different specialized proteases that all bind to their own special spots and together they manage to totally break apart the large protein molecule into small pieces your body can use.
Well a challenge with casein has been the high proline content. Our bodies have no problem producing proteases that bind and react with proline rich peptides, but most manufacturers don’t have that enzyme available to use in their plant. So with regular hydrolyzed casein the hydrolysis procedure can only go so far an you end up with a lot of proline peptides that could not be further broken down. In fact it is specifically the proline peptides that give hydrolyzed casein its distinctive bitter taste.
The manufacturers of PP were able to isolate and optimize the use of an enzyme I believe they have patented that will efficiently break down even the proline peptides. So not only do you eliminate the bitter taste of these peptides but you also now have 80% of the protein broken all the way down to the size of di and tri-peptides (meaning protein fragments so small they are made up of only 2-3 amino acids per molecule).
Our intestines can directly absorb these peptides with ZERO need for any hydrolysis in our stomach. Not only that but our intestines PREFER to absorb these peptides over free form amino acids. We have easily 10X more peptide transporters in our intestines than free form amino acid transporters. So PP is superior to any form of free form amino acid supplement. But it gets even better, its a full complete spectrum of all the amino acids.
Does it get even better? Yes. For those who are on ketogenic diets or very carb restricted but still want a post workout insulin spike PP is amazing. This is because the ultra fast absorption of all these amino acids makes PP actually strongly insulinogenic.
Can a good thing be too good? Yes. This supplement is actually so powerful that you can easily over do it. The entire serving will literally absorb into your bloodstream within minutes. You don’t need 40g of amino acids in your blood in one shot. You will massively upregulate the use of amino acids for gluconeogenesis, but then almost as quickly as it rose it will drop. But your body will still be in amino acid metabolizing overdrive. So you can actually start turning to your own muscle tissue and go into negative nitrogen balance.
Remember it is CHANGES in blood amino acid concentration that stimulate protein synthesis, not simply the levels of amino acids in your blood. So by manipulating the ultra fast absorption of PP, you can really stimulate the receptors on your muscles that upregulate muscle protein synthesis.
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration
Regular hydrolyzed casein can still clump in the stomach and be even slower digesting than whey isolate. It also tastes horrible and does not mix well. PP makes a clear solution instantly like its crystal light or something.
However, the regular hydrolyzed casein at ****** has a very high AN/TN (amino nitrogen to total nitrogen) indicating a high level of hydrolysis (of course nowhere near that of PP though). So there is a significant amount of fast absorbing peptides in each serving. The rest of the serving will digest a lot slower, maybe over a period of hours. So you can get the best of both worlds and this is an effective powder. I’ve actually got decent results sipping 20g of regular hydrolyzed casein during my workouts.
Hydrolyzed whey is hydrolyzed to a similar extent as the regular hydrolyzed casein, but overall will absorb a lot faster because even the less hydrolyzed portions will be totally soluble in our stomachs. It is also a lot less bitter because whey proteins do not have nearly as many proline peptides."
Ill repost the important point of the quote just to make sure everyone sees it…
"Can a good thing be too good? Yes. This supplement is actually so powerful that you can easily over do it. The entire serving will literally absorb into your bloodstream within minutes. You don’t need 40g of amino acids in your blood in one shot. You will massively upregulate the use of amino acids for gluconeogenesis, but then almost as quickly as it rose it will drop. But your body will still be in amino acid metabolizing overdrive. So you can actually start turning to your own muscle tissue and go into negative nitrogen balance.
Remember it is CHANGES in blood amino acid concentration that stimulate protein synthesis, not simply the levels of amino acids in your blood. So by manipulating the ultra fast absorption of PP, you can really stimulate the receptors on your muscles that upregulate muscle protein synthesis.
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration "
Oh, nvm BBB I just realised you’re not pulsing with CH, sorry
Altough the same principle may apply for hydrolyzed whey, I wouldnt know at what extent tough
[quote]Raided wrote:
I havent rushed to buy all the supplements for this but I was inspired to have post and pre workout shake. Just the same whey + maltodextrin + dextrose 30 grams of each and 5grams creatine shake I used to only have post workout.
So now I have two insulin spikes around my workout. The workouts feel great from all the extra energy.
But I obviously the gains are nothing special 2lbs a week and I still feel what leaness I had slipping away. It’s not suprising to me either a doubling of the sum of my insulin spike probably wont be enough to see anything special happen.
My point is that the FINiBARs and Alpha-GPC must be causing a lot of the gains CT reports. What are your thoughts on what could be the key ingredient. In my opinion the FINiBARs are the real catalyst and Alpha-GPC is needed too. [/quote]
However, CT, when a person asked about dropping the FINiBARs due to his budget, said that the protocol is still about – I forget the exact figures he stated – 80% or 85% as effective.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Raided wrote:
I havent rushed to buy all the supplements for this but I was inspired to have post and pre workout shake. Just the same whey + maltodextrin + dextrose 30 grams of each and 5grams creatine shake I used to only have post workout.
So now I have two insulin spikes around my workout. The workouts feel great from all the extra energy.
But I obviously the gains are nothing special 2lbs a week and I still feel what leaness I had slipping away. It’s not suprising to me either a doubling of the sum of my insulin spike probably wont be enough to see anything special happen.
My point is that the FINiBARs and Alpha-GPC must be causing a lot of the gains CT reports. What are your thoughts on what could be the key ingredient. In my opinion the FINiBARs are the real catalyst and Alpha-GPC is needed too.
However, CT, when a person asked about dropping the FINiBARs due to his budget, said that the protocol is still about – I forget the exact figures he stated – 80% or 85% as effective.
[/quote]
Hah Bill ! He said that to me as I had stated the bars were the thing with the highest cost for the protocol (apart from Anaconda)
He said something like 90-95% I think, or 85-90%
He also said the purpose of the FINiBARs was providing low-glycemic Palatinose and Rice Olgidextran
[quote]skohcl wrote:
He also said the purpose of the FINiBARs was providing low-glycemic Palatinose and Rice Olgidextran [/quote]
Right. This is where I started tweaking out over those two ingredients. The specific ratio would be nice to know for optimum cell pull of nutrients. I’m half assed thinking of trying to experiment but not sure if it’s an optimum route or not. It’s only in that -45 or -60 window, so that has me contemplating nailing the latter ingredients on the cheap first.
I think the palatinose is the main one, since it is the first ingredient in the FINiBAR, and the rice olg is kinda far back, so like some oat starch with palatiniose or something… I’m going to experiment when I get my palatinose 
But yeah, I need to watch my carbs, I’m trying not to eat too much, and even half of the protocol jacks me up to like 2800-3000 cals on workout days, and I’m not sure I’m ready to switch over to a ‘bulk’ phase just yet. I kinda’ wanna drop a few more lbs of fat, so we’ll see where I’m at in a few weeks I guess.
[quote]skohcl wrote:
He also said the purpose of the FINiBARs was providing low-glycemic Palatinose and Rice Olgidextran [/quote]
If thats the case, I wonder if we could just buy them separately? I found Palatinose for 15 bucks for 2 pounds and Rice for olgidextran for 4 bucks a pound… Add some whey, and you got a ghetto finibar…ha
[quote]zraw wrote:
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration "[/quote]
Interesting statement. The whole purpose of the pulse is to spike amino acid levels, and this is why CH and WH is viewed as superior, i.e. ultra-fast absorbed high quality amino acids. Employing slower-acting protein sources provides the user with a steady-stream of aminos - traditionally viewed as the optimum way to ensure a positive nitrogen balance.
The argument now is that the latter is actually more likely to desensitize muscle receptors over time. I believe Thibaudeau states this latter strategy is still acceptable for trainees on low calorie diets but for gaining mass the former is optimum.
The point you raise is whether over-using CH and/or WH could lead to the same desensitization? And whether pulsing could become counter-productive over time?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Raided wrote:
I havent rushed to buy all the supplements for this but I was inspired to have post and pre workout shake. Just the same whey + maltodextrin + dextrose 30 grams of each and 5grams creatine shake I used to only have post workout.
So now I have two insulin spikes around my workout. The workouts feel great from all the extra energy.
But I obviously the gains are nothing special 2lbs a week and I still feel what leaness I had slipping away. It’s not suprising to me either a doubling of the sum of my insulin spike probably wont be enough to see anything special happen.
My point is that the FINiBARs and Alpha-GPC must be causing a lot of the gains CT reports. What are your thoughts on what could be the key ingredient. In my opinion the FINiBARs are the real catalyst and Alpha-GPC is needed too.
However, CT, when a person asked about dropping the FINiBARs due to his budget, said that the protocol is still about – I forget the exact figures he stated – 80% or 85% as effective.
[/quote]
I think that there is no one supplement causing most of the gains, but rather they all work synergistically with each other to produce the results. Assuming of course that this protocol works since I am still waiting on my order to try it out for myself.
[quote]skohcl wrote:
I think the palatinose is the main one, since it is the first ingredient in the FINiBAR, and the rice olg is kinda far back, so like some oat starch with palatiniose or something… I’m going to experiment when I get my palatinose
But yeah, I need to watch my carbs, I’m trying not to eat too much, and even half of the protocol jacks me up to like 2800-3000 cals on workout days, and I’m not sure I’m ready to switch over to a ‘bulk’ phase just yet. I kinda’ wanna drop a few more lbs of fat, so we’ll see where I’m at in a few weeks I guess.[/quote]
Nice. You’re not kidding there either, those calories really zing up into the stratosphere quickly on this deal! I"m going to test the waters with as BBB talked, just eating pro/veg every meal aside from the para-wkout window.
It’s like doing the Anabolic Diet almost, with no carb up save the para window.
I was trying to tweak that when I was on it a couple years back, only I was still doing the carb up on weekends, and I didn’t go nearly as high cho in the para as this new protocol does.
I’m stoked to try this though. Began eating that way yesterday after reading BBB’s take on it.
[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration "
Interesting statement. The whole purpose of the pulse is to spike amino acid levels, and this is why CH and WH is viewed as superior, i.e. ultra-fast absorbed high quality amino acids. Employing slower-acting protein sources provides the user with a steady-stream of aminos - traditionally viewed as the optimum way to ensure a positive nitrogen balance.
The argument now is that the latter is actually more likely to desensitize muscle receptors over time. I believe Thibaudeau states this latter strategy is still acceptable for trainees on low calorie diets but for gaining mass the former is optimum.
The point you raise is whether over-using CH and/or WH could lead to the same desensitization? And whether pulsing could become counter-productive over time? [/quote]
The point is pulsing should probably not be overused
[quote]zraw wrote:
JamesBrawn007 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration "
Interesting statement. The whole purpose of the pulse is to spike amino acid levels, and this is why CH and WH is viewed as superior, i.e. ultra-fast absorbed high quality amino acids. Employing slower-acting protein sources provides the user with a steady-stream of aminos - traditionally viewed as the optimum way to ensure a positive nitrogen balance.
The argument now is that the latter is actually more likely to desensitize muscle receptors over time. I believe Thibaudeau states this latter strategy is still acceptable for trainees on low calorie diets but for gaining mass the former is optimum.
The point you raise is whether over-using CH and/or WH could lead to the same desensitization? And whether pulsing could become counter-productive over time?
The point is pulsing should probably not be overused
[/quote]
Where has thibs stated this that it leads to muscle desensitization?
[quote]zraw wrote:
The point is pulsing should probably not be overused
[/quote]
What constitutes overuse?
The quote was neither from me or Thib but rather from someone from Dante’s company talking about hydrolyzed proteins…
Since DC has been talking about benefits of peptopro since 2007, im pretty sure the info is accurate…
As far as how much is too much, Im really not sure but I personally will not go higher than 3 pulses/day
[quote]InTheZone wrote:
skohcl wrote:
I think the palatinose is the main one, since it is the first ingredient in the FINiBAR, and the rice olg is kinda far back, so like some oat starch with palatiniose or something… I’m going to experiment when I get my palatinose
But yeah, I need to watch my carbs, I’m trying not to eat too much, and even half of the protocol jacks me up to like 2800-3000 cals on workout days, and I’m not sure I’m ready to switch over to a ‘bulk’ phase just yet. I kinda’ wanna drop a few more lbs of fat, so we’ll see where I’m at in a few weeks I guess.
Nice. You’re not kidding there either, those calories really zing up into the stratosphere quickly on this deal! I"m going to test the waters with as BBB talked, just eating pro/veg every meal aside from the para-wkout window.
It’s like doing the Anabolic Diet almost, with no carb up save the para window.
I was trying to tweak that when I was on it a couple years back, only I was still doing the carb up on weekends, and I didn’t go nearly as high cho in the para as this new protocol does.
I’m stoked to try this though. Began eating that way yesterday after reading BBB’s take on it.
[/quote]
Yeah, that’s pretty much my diet… there here’s a quote from the fat-loss forum where CT recommended an abbridged version of the protocol to gain a lil while losing fat, so that’s what I’ve been trying to follow:
â?¨â?¨CT - or anyone else - which thread was this talked about in? I’ve looked and looked and can’t find it. â?¨â?¨I’m sitting at about 10-11% BF after “Get Jacked Fast.” I’d like to lose a few more pounds of fat, but I don’t think I can hack the mental strain of low-carbing for more than a few weeks.
I actually don’t consume any carbs outside of fruit, but I get terrible cravings for them and was going nuts in the final weeks of GJF. â?¨â?¨Coach, do you think that restricting my carbs to 2 fruit portions a day and pre-workout (i.e. pulsing) would allow me to get to 8% BF while retaining/gaining lean mass? I can get some peptopro, pending Anaconda’s release, Finibars, basically anything that’s commercially available. â?¨â?¨G
��You can reach your goal by consuming as much as 150g of carbs per day provided that they are well timed, of the right type and that the caloric intake for the rest of the day is correct. ��
Here are my recommendations: ��
- Start at 1.25g of protein per pound NOT including para-workout nutrition â?¨
- Consume between 60 and 80g of fat per day â?¨
- Set carbs at around 150g on workout days as follow: ��
40 min pre-workout 1 FINiBAR (39g) â?¨
30 min pre-workout SURGE WORKOUT FUEL 1 SCOOP (21g)
â?¨15 min pre-workout SURGE RECOVERY 1 SCOOP (25g) â?¨
During the workout SURGE RECOVERY 1 SCOOP (25g) + 20-30g CH ��
Total = 110g para-workout ��
Then have 2 portions of fruit with a whey shake 60 minutes after the workout. ��
The rest of the day is low-carbs.
So that is kinda’ what I’m trying to do… This amounts to 1600-1800 on non-workout days and approx. 2800 or so on workout days. And I’ve been on an upper-lower split working out 4 days a week. And I usually consume 30-50g of carbs from peanut butter, flax, and other random “trace” sources, so I generally have 2000~ish on my off days.
I am getting rather sick of dieting though, been dieting keto style for like 3-4 months, so I might have to go crazy for a week or something, cause these cheat meals once or twice a week ain’t cutting it! 
[quote]zraw wrote:
JamesBrawn007 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration "
Interesting statement. The whole purpose of the pulse is to spike amino acid levels, and this is why CH and WH is viewed as superior, i.e. ultra-fast absorbed high quality amino acids. Employing slower-acting protein sources provides the user with a steady-stream of aminos - traditionally viewed as the optimum way to ensure a positive nitrogen balance.
The argument now is that the latter is actually more likely to desensitize muscle receptors over time. I believe Thibaudeau states this latter strategy is still acceptable for trainees on low calorie diets but for gaining mass the former is optimum.
The point you raise is whether over-using CH and/or WH could lead to the same desensitization? And whether pulsing could become counter-productive over time?
The point is pulsing should probably not be overused
[/quote]
Thibs recommends a low-protein day when pulsing. I would think the reason is related.
I’m another one making my own workout protocols.
Here’s what I’m doing so far:
45 minutes before workout:
1.5 scoops whey [30g protein]
60g Activated Barley [42g carbs(12gfibre) / 6g protein]
50g oats [35g carbs(4g fibre) / 4g protein]
1 apples
30 minutes before workout:
22g Activated Barley [16g carbs(4gfibre)]
16g palatinose [16g carbs(16g sugar)]
10g dextrose [10g carbs(10g sugar)]
250mg Vitamin C
16g Electrolyte Powder
6g L-Leucine
6g Citrulline malate
3g Beta alanine
15 minutes before workout:
30g Hydrolysed Whey (25g protein)
35g Vitargo (30g carbs)
10g Maltrodextrin (9g carbs)
10g Dextrose (10g carbs)
8g Electrolyte powder
4g L-Leucine
During the workout:
25g casein hydrolysate
6g L-Leucine
6g Citrulline malate
3g Beta alanine
16g Electrolyte powder
10g D-Ribose powder
5g Glucuronolactone (main ingredient in energy drinks, besides caffiene!)
30 min after workout is 20g casein hydrolysate
Flavorings I use are Berry Blast, Irish Cream and Cranberry (citric acid, flavoring, sucralose)
The feeling I get is pretty good, I get a good pump during my workouts. I’m still experimenting with ingredients for my during workout concoction, just trial and error at the moment.
I want to order the actual supplements required for the protocol and see how the results compare.