Who Will Have the Biggest Biceps?

Training
21

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

not enough information included to reasonably come to a conclusion. There are so many variables you’re ignoring. Intensity, time under tension, total volume, set and rep schemes, the list goes on. How about the specific exercises being done? Wouldn’t that be useful, rather than using the generic term of ‘compound lifts’? pull ups and rows are both compound movements for the upper back, but pull ups are probably better for bicep development, depending on which grip is used, something you’re also not accounting for. Are the participants able to do multiple pull ups, or even 1? Are they obese? Are they skinny?

You asked a very thoughtless question, although I’m sure you believed it was a smart one. Back to the drawing board, eh?[/quote]

It was a more general type question, I left out specifics on purpose. Does it matter if a twin did medium grip pull-ups vs close gripped biceps? If 25% of his upper back work consisted of the latter, will he have bigger biceps than the twin who does curls?
How would the fact of whether they were obese or skinny make a difference in the results to their biceps?

Like I said, it’s a general question along the lines of compound vs isolation exercises for a discrete bodypart. But if you want specifics, let’s say for the back-training twin, 12-15 sets consisting of 6-12 reps divided evenly between dumbbell rows, wide grip pull ups, t-bar rows, and rack pulls. The biceps-training twin does 9-12 sets consisting of 8-15 reps divided between dumbbell curls, hammer curls, and cable curls. Average weight, 1 year of training experience, they can do 10 bodyweight chin-ups.

[/quote]

Yes it matters if the pull ups are medium versus close, and if both or just one are employed. And of course it matters if they’re obese or skinny. Every obese human is capable of bicep curl, and almost none are capable of performing a pull up. How did this not occur to you? This would drastically limit exercise selection for the compound movement guy, but not the isolation guy.

In this new example, I would bet on the compound movement guy. I think you selected a good set of lifts for him, there is ample volume for growth, and the stress on the biceps should be sufficient. Although I would further divide the pull ups into half wide grip, half close grip. Close grip stresses the biceps far more for me. Wide grip is more about lat strength. I also think never dropping below 8 reps is limiting, whereas 6-12 reps is more optimal for growth, at just about any level.

22

I firmly believe the isolation guy would have the bigger bicep, but I train primarily compound myself because that is not what I’m in it for.

23

[quote]tsantos wrote:
Too many variables. What if we had the same guy doing isolation dah pumpz work on his left side and compounds with one arm on his right with some contraptions built by Bat man to do the work of the second arm. Which arm would be bigger? [/quote]

The one he masturbates with

24

Obviously we’re all speculating, but IMO, the guy doing Isolation work will have better biceps while the guy doing compound work will most likely have better arm and overall size.

It’s the old issue of powerlifters vs bodybuilders. Powerlifters have very decent all around size, but despite how much weight they may squat, in most instances, their quad size isn’t the same level as elite level bodybuilders who focus on hitting the muscles with more specificity.

S

25

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]tsantos wrote:
Too many variables. What if we had the same guy doing isolation dah pumpz work on his left side and compounds with one arm on his right with some contraptions built by Bat man to do the work of the second arm. Which arm would be bigger? [/quote]

The one he masturbates with[/quote]

Is this compound or isolation work?

26

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously we’re all speculating, but IMO, the guy doing Isolation work will have better biceps while the guy doing compound work will most likely have better arm and overall size.

It’s the old issue of powerlifters vs bodybuilders. Powerlifters have very decent all around size, but despite how much weight they may squat, in most instances, their quad size isn’t the same level as elite level bodybuilders who focus on hitting the muscles with more specificity.

S[/quote]

Thanks for the response, Stu. I agree with you.

What’s your opinion on my question about the chest training hypothetical? Compounds, isolation, or both?

I know your philosophy is quality stimulation above all for muscle size, so if quality stimulation is best achieved by a particular lifter through isolation exercises, is he better off focusing on that and eschewing heavier compound exercises?

27

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
The one that squats. Duh.[/quote]

only if he does GOMAD[/quote]

These threads make me GOMAD.

28

Chest is where I think it gets trickier, which I think explains why bodybuilders and powerlifters have some training overlap. Biceps you can isolate pretty easily because of the simple joint they operate on. The pec alone has 4 movement functions and then overlap with other nearby muscles. You can’t exactly isolate the whole pec no matter what you do. Some muscles in your body have to be trained in conjunction with others.

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this guy

30

[quote]Yogi wrote:
this guy[/quote]

Even the guy who curls in the squat rack isn’t a bigger douchebag than this guy.

Is there anyone worse than guys like these? Got nothin.

31

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously we’re all speculating, but IMO, the guy doing Isolation work will have better biceps while the guy doing compound work will most likely have better arm and overall size.

It’s the old issue of powerlifters vs bodybuilders. Powerlifters have very decent all around size, but despite how much weight they may squat, in most instances, their quad size isn’t the same level as elite level bodybuilders who focus on hitting the muscles with more specificity.

S[/quote]

I think that depends on how they squat. Good narrower stance raw power lifters tend to have pretty dang large quads. I’m of the opinion that for the muscles they train, power lifters build just as much muscle as bodybuilders. Though that means biceps est. are still generally less developed. I think the bigger difference between a top BBer and a top PLer is structure. Big thick joints and wide hips with a thick midsection work against the illusion of BBing.

I also think there are a few crossover guys like Jonny Jackson who maybe build that impression but seem to have had a number of quad tears/and injuries that may be part of the reason.

At least part of the magic of BBing type training is not just muscle growth, but growth and stimulation of very strong muscle over a prolonged period while avoiding injury. I don’t think BBing type training has as much of a lock on outright growth as people think.

32

[quote]Yogi wrote:
this guy[/quote]
BAHAHAHAHAAAHAA!

33

For an answer to the OP, probably the one that trains harder. It?s also worthwhile to consider that if someone goes in and just does curls, their elbows may go to crap with imbalances and their bicep tendons may get worn and inflamed (mine would).

Personally I train my arms like the second guy and still have better biceps than most of the guys in the gyms I?ve trained in.

34

[quote]Yogi wrote:
this guy[/quote]

I’ve always wanted to arm wrestle one of these oil bags.

35

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
this guy[/quote]

I’ve always wanted to arm wrestle one of these oil bags.[/quote]

me too! Not even that, just see what they’re actually like in the gym; the numbers they put up.

Or do they even train? Probably not…

36

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:
Like I said, it’s a general question along the lines of compound vs isolation exercises for a discrete bodypart.
[/quote]

What if I told you…that you could build a really good physique using just compound exercises, just isolation exercises, OR a combination of the two?[/quote]

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I think most would only agree with first and last sentiment.

37

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Yes it matters if the pull ups are medium versus close, and if both or just one are employed. And of course it matters if they’re obese or skinny. Every obese human is capable of bicep curl, and almost none are capable of performing a pull up. How did this not occur to you? This would drastically limit exercise selection for the compound movement guy, but not the isolation guy.[/quote]

I don’t think I agree with you here. If they were obese, they could do lat pulldowns, which shouldn’t be too much different than pullups with respect to impact to the arm flexors.

[quote]
In this new example, I would bet on the compound movement guy. I think you selected a good set of lifts for him, there is ample volume for growth, and the stress on the biceps should be sufficient. Although I would further divide the pull ups into half wide grip, half close grip. Close grip stresses the biceps far more for me. Wide grip is more about lat strength. I also think never dropping below 8 reps is limiting, whereas 6-12 reps is more optimal for growth, at just about any level.[/quote]

This is interesting. I don’t know if you train in a body part split with direct arm work, but if you do, do you feel your biceps get more stimulation from your upper back work than your direct arm work?

38

[quote]thegymismyshrink wrote:
Chest is where I think it gets trickier, which I think explains why bodybuilders and powerlifters have some training overlap. Biceps you can isolate pretty easily because of the simple joint they operate on. The pec alone has 4 movement functions and then overlap with other nearby muscles. You can’t exactly isolate the whole pec no matter what you do. Some muscles in your body have to be trained in conjunction with others. [/quote]

Okay, let’s compare the bench press with a cable flye. The pectoral function being trained for both exercises is horizontal adduction. Assuming you’re putting 100% effort into both exercises with excellent MMC, with regard solely to the hypertrophy of the pectorals, is there any difference between in results between the two? And if you actually have a better MMC with the cable flye, and your only interest is in stimulating hypertrophy in your pecs, are you better off with the cable flyes?

I understand the advantage of compound exercises to be a sort of training economy, where you’re hitting many more muscles with greater impact than a cable flye. But the question here is solely with regard to pectoral hypertrophy. And with regard to your concern above, I’m unaware of any requirement for full pectoral activation that is missing in the cable flye but present with the bench press.

39

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Yes it matters if the pull ups are medium versus close, and if both or just one are employed. And of course it matters if they’re obese or skinny. Every obese human is capable of bicep curl, and almost none are capable of performing a pull up. How did this not occur to you? This would drastically limit exercise selection for the compound movement guy, but not the isolation guy.[/quote]

I don’t think I agree with you here. If they were obese, they could do lat pulldowns, which shouldn’t be too much different than pullups with respect to impact to the arm flexors.
[/quote]

Realllllly…

Of course every individual’s ability to tap into the MMC / isolate a given muscle will be different, but Bret certainly seemed to find that chins and pull-ups stimulated the biceps more than lat pulldowns. Like, a lot more.

40

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Yes it matters if the pull ups are medium versus close, and if both or just one are employed. And of course it matters if they’re obese or skinny. Every obese human is capable of bicep curl, and almost none are capable of performing a pull up. How did this not occur to you? This would drastically limit exercise selection for the compound movement guy, but not the isolation guy.[/quote]

I don’t think I agree with you here. If they were obese, they could do lat pulldowns, which shouldn’t be too much different than pullups with respect to impact to the arm flexors.

There is a huge difference between lat pulldowns and pull ups. They feel very different, and require different muscle recruitment. Just because they look like they’re pretty much the same doesn’t mean they are. If you’ve done both (maybe you haven’t), I’m surprised you would question the difference.

I do direct arm work, and I do compound back movements. I think both are effective at building arms.

When I was younger, I did much more isolation. I didn’t do heavy rows or tons of pullups. I grew significantly more, in all parts of my body, when I focused on the heavy compounds and limited my isolation work. Compound movements have always given me better results, but again, I think both have their place in training. It’s really a silly question to ask which one’s better if you plan on doing both anyway. There’s no real-world application here. Especially for a beginner.