Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

So your looking for a more personal Salvation, as did the apostle Thomas.

[quote]pookie wrote:
DeepSouth wrote:
What’s this about pi? 3 isn’t close enough for you? What would you have wanted from people who used crude tools? Plenty of non-perfect circles in buildings/architecture where ever you go, including modern day USA.

Shit, even NASA gets it wrong sometimes. They wasted about a billion bucks because they forgot to convert from metric to English.

Yes, but NASA does not claim to be the inspired word of God. That’s why I’d like Bible-pi to be a little better than 3. If I was a deity inspiring some man to write a book to revelate (is that a word?) myself to them, I’d try to get at least my basic math straight. But that’s just me. Maybe the idea is to keep away from any proof as to make faith necessary.[/quote]

142

As an agnostic, I have to admit the possibility of a devine creator just like I believe in the possibility we simply cease to exist upon death. I don’t believe in religion which I feel was created by man for a variety of reasons both good and bad.

143

Bill Maher- religion is insanity by consesus.
DEEP SOUTH- what evidence is there. I thought the whole christianity thing was based on faith so you don’t need proof.

144

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
Just want to say I think you have it wrong when it comes to Paul… He did meet Jesus, the reason for his complete conversion…and he practically set the Christian Doctrine, IMO.

[/quote]

He had a vision of Jesus which led to his conversion. He never met Christ before his crucifixion.

Miserere, Paul and Peter DID argue, but the big schism in the Early Church was between James and Paul.

‘Perhaps with another 2000 years of learning & understanding science will in fact be able to prove the existance of God.’

Why would anyone ever want to PROVE the existence of God? Faith wouldn’t be a choice, then, would it? If you’re a Christian, then surely you believe that 1. God has already revealed himself and that 2. When He does it again, everyone’s bloody going to notice…

145

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If you look closely enough you will see that the natural world is not as clean or as elegant as the mathematics makes it look.

That is simply your opinion…and I can assure you that not many agree with it. There is an equation for beauty. The Golden Proportion was used throughout Greek architecture, gained from Egyptian knowledge of mathematics. That speaks volums about the relationship between math and order in what should be a universe filled with utter chaos. You obviously choose to ignore that.

ProfX,
beauty is subjective and the golden mean is purly a western derivation–just as like the western idea of diatonic music–though mathematically sound only one interpretation of music theory.

The golden mean is nothing more than the number that satisfies this equation:

1/a = 1 - a; a = 1.61803…

again we have an irrational number like pi.

How can a constant be a definition of beauty? The Greeks found perfection in numbers; I do not and neither do most scientist or mathematicians. [/quote]

Actually, that would be “PHI”, not “pi”. Throughout history, the ratio for length to width of rectangles of 1.61803 has been considered the most pleasing to the eye. This ratio was named the golden ratio by the Greeks. In the world of mathematics, the numeric value is called “phi”, named for the Greek sculptor Phidias. Again, it is a ratio…a means of proportion.

146

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
So your looking for a more personal Salvation, as did the apostle Thomas.[/quote]

I need a swift kick to the ass, while in an empty room.

I’m pretty sure that would revive my faith.

147

[quote]fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei[/quote]

Dude. Not interested in a debate?! I like how you try and cloak your gospel message under the clause of “I’m just wondering”. Nice try. I believe though that your message about the pagan god Jesus or Iseous has all ready been told before. Mithra was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples and died for our sins and rose from the dead after going to hell… all 200 years before the christ story.

I cannont deny the evidence of a creation point or creator. There are way too many miraculous things that occur or have occured that are hard to place under the random category.

My problem with your version, is you don’t even know who Jesus was. You don’t know of all the pagan names and practices you do in your church thinking your praising god. He was a jew (if he even exsisted). He obeyed the god of israel. He ate kosher. He attended jewish synagogue on Saturday not the Pagan Day of the Sun (Sunday). The “apostle” Paul’s writings are nothing short of the god-man writings of all the ancient religions of the past. Its not a new story.

If you truly want truth, study these things out. Take if from a former, spirit-filled, washed in the blood, Jesus is the son of God minister… It’s all fables my friend.

148

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’ll take this slow for the kids in the back row…KINGS contains a literal account of the building that took place. That is why they mentioned the LINE used to measure and did not say “this measured precisely that”. As stated earlier, these people often used BODY PARTS to determine length. Get over it. These people weren’t walking around with scientific calculators and grid paper. As was stated earlier by someone else, pi was already known in parts of the world at this time. It was not a mystery.[/quote]

Ah, back row. That sure brings back memories…

They could build temples, but they couldn’t figure out a simple ruler? Sheesh, do you really think those ancients where that dense?

Like I said, I’m not asking for 40 digits of precision here; but any builder who’s off by 1 part in 30 when he measure a distance should not be allowed to build a bird house, much less a temple.

The Greeks had the Golden Ratio, pi and the spherical earth figured out. The jews had trouble measuring a 15 feet circle. Hmmmm… maybe we should follow Zeus and Heracules as the “correct” religion.

149

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If you look closely enough you will see that the natural world is not as clean or as elegant as the mathematics makes it look.

That is simply your opinion…and I can assure you that not many agree with it. There is an equation for beauty. The Golden Proportion was used throughout Greek architecture, gained from Egyptian knowledge of mathematics. That speaks volums about the relationship between math and order in what should be a universe filled with utter chaos. You obviously choose to ignore that.

ProfX,
beauty is subjective and the golden mean is purly a western derivation–just as like the western idea of diatonic music–though mathematically sound only one interpretation of music theory.

The golden mean is nothing more than the number that satisfies this equation:

1/a = 1 - a; a = 1.61803…

again we have an irrational number like pi.

How can a constant be a definition of beauty? The Greeks found perfection in numbers; I do not and neither do most scientist or mathematicians.

Actually, that would be “PHI”, not “pi”. Throughout history, the ratio for length to width of rectangles of 1.61803 has been considered the most pleasing to the eye. This ratio was named the golden ratio by the Greeks. In the world of mathematics, the numeric value is called “phi”, named for the Greek sculptor Phidias. Again, it is a ratio…a means of proportion.
[/quote]
I’m not arguing the derivation of “phi” or “chi” or “zeta” or insert [symbol] for a variable _____. I simply use “a” because it was the first key I hit. Greek letters don’t translate on this mark-up.

Though the golden ratio is regarded as the most pleasing to the eye in geometric shapes doesn’t make the universe ordered. Beauty is purely subjective. Circles are perfectly round though there radius to circumference is not a perfect number–hence irrational. Becasue disorder is prevalent in the universe does not mean that beauty cannot exist. Look for beauty and you will find it–in the presenece of entropy or not.

150

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
As an agnostic, I have to admit the possibility of a devine creator just like I believe in the possibility we simply cease to exist upon death. I don’t believe in religion which I feel was created by man for a variety of reasons both good and bad. [/quote]

I used to say I was agnostic. The problem was that believers would say or think “Ah, he’s just a little confused, he’ll come around.” If found that dismissive and annoying.

Eventually, I read Isaac Asimov’s thought on the matter:

“…but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn’t have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I’m a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don’t have the evidence to prove that God doesn’t exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn’t that I don’t want to waste my time.”

…Which very neatly resumed the way I felt. Using “atheist” instead of “agnostic” does save a lot of time and piss off a whole lot more people.

151

[quote]I believe that, absolutely.

Evolution and Creation are not contradictions in my opinion. Additionally, for me personally the evidence in support for Christianity is overwhelming.
[/quote]

PLEASE GIVE US THE “OVERWHELMING” EVIDENCE.

Oh, and Hoosier_boy didn’t just post… He sent me the link to this and evidentally it kept me logged in as him when I posted… He sucks.

152

[quote]HoosierFan wrote:
fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.

I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.

Just curious.

FatSensei

Dude. Not interested in a debate?! I like how you try and cloak your gospel message under the clause of “I’m just wondering”. Nice try. I believe though that your message about the pagan god Jesus or Iseous has all ready been told before. Mithra was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples and died for our sins and rose from the dead after going to hell… all 200 years before the christ story.

I cannont deny the evidence of a creation point or creator. There are way too many miraculous things that occur or have occured that are hard to place under the random category.

My problem with your version, is you don’t even know who Jesus was. You don’t know of all the pagan names and practices you do in your church thinking your praising god. He was a jew (if he even exsisted). He obeyed the god of israel. He ate kosher. He attended jewish synagogue on Saturday not the Pagan Day of the Sun (Sunday). The “apostle” Paul’s writings are nothing short of the god-man writings of all the ancient religions of the past. Its not a new story.

If you truly want truth, study these things out. Take if from a former, spirit-filled, washed in the blood, Jesus is the son of God minister… It’s all fables my friend.
[/quote]

Thanks to some linking problems with the site, by buddy buttered_corn inadvertedly posted as me. While I was not a former minister, I was a full-fledged beliver in Christ. Now, I’m agnostic and heading towards atheism. Miserere touched on several excellent points in addition to what buttered_corn posted as me.

It was terribly disappointing to me to find the faith I grew up with was nothing more than an unoriginal cult with a rehashed salvation message.

153

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Bill Maher- religion is insanity by consesus.
DEEP SOUTH- what evidence is there. I thought the whole christianity thing was based on faith so you don’t need proof.[/quote]

Are you directing a comment or question to me? Not sure what you’re implying in reference to me…

154

[quote]Miserere wrote:
You’re joking, right? If you accept the story of the Bible, then Jesus was a huge mustard stain on the Roman radar. They would’ve noticed. And according to the Bible, they did.
[/quote]

I’m not accepting the story of the Bible, I’m arguing that there probably was a historical Jesus. Big difference. Of course the Christian Bible is going to try to make the coming of Jesus look like the biggest thing ever. We know that the historical Pilate was essentially a thug, not the sympathetic character the Bible seems to paint him as. While Jesus may have been an affront to the established Jewish priesthood, that’s a bit different than mattering to the Roman elites, or for that matter, historians. Think of it this way: Joe Schmoe gets a DUI, makes a big stink, and ends up speaking to the mayor. He goes to jail. Do you think contemporary historians would even bother writing about that? Especially given how many DUIs occur every year? No. Now, friends of Joe might write up their accounts, and from their perspective this would be a very big deal. Look at all the police it took to subdue him! Look how many people they sent to his house to pick him up when he missed his court date! For the Roman historian, Jesus didn’t matter until after his cult started gaining steam and becoming politically problematic.

Probably?

[quote] doesn’t prove anything about Jesus. Especially since Paul never met Jesus.
[/quote]

You’re thinking of the wrong apostle.

That’s almost, but not quite, as absurd as saying that there were whole areas of Christian doctrine that Jesus was ignorant of. Christianity apart from Judaism did not exist until years after Jesus’s death. One of the early arguments in the church was whether or not Christianity was merely a sect of Judaism or if it should be its own religion proper.

Point being that crucifiction happened regularly, and was not a special event that historians would be appalled by and hence feel compelled to write about.

[quote]
Maybe a “wandering mystic with a cult” named Jesus did exist, why not? It’s possible. However, Jesus, as he is represented in the Bible, is highly unlikely to have existed. Read my loooong, earlier post for the reasons why I believe this (I believe you arleady did).[/quote]

Frankly, having read plenty of mythology and Greek plays, I already understood the relationship between Christian myth and the Greeks/Egyptians. Regardless, I’m not trying to convince you that Jesus existed “as he is represented in the Bible.” To make that argument I would have to prove that he performed miracles. Rather, I merely wanted to refute your argument that the historical Jesus was unlikely to have lived… I think that it’s rather likely that a Jesus did live and was crucified, and I don’t find that particularly odd or vexing.

If we’ve been arguing at cross-purposes, then whoops, my bad.

155

Has anyone ever noticed how everytime one of these threads starts up, the “Strong Words” of the day always seem to made to measure?

(For those reading this on some other day than August 30th, 2005, the “Strong Words” for that day were:

“Most of the things we do, we do for no better reason than that our fathers have done them or our neighbors do them, and the same is true of a larger part than what we suspect of what we think.”
[center]- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.[/center]

)

156

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Again, it is a ratio…a means of proportion.
[/quote]
Yes it is a ratio but it is not an exact number…like pi.

You cannot have an exact golden ratio rectangel becasue you cannot measure irrational numbers. You would have to chop of some of the precision. Where is the discrete (distinguishable) line that makes the rectangle “beautiful” as definded by,

1/phi = phi - 1.

the equation is the only way to represent the golden mean a number won’t do it.

EDIT–Hence mathematics generalizes the natural world and does not define it–which is what my originalpoint was.

157

[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
I believe that, absolutely.

Evolution and Creation are not contradictions in my opinion. Additionally, for me personally the evidence in support for Christianity is overwhelming.

PLEASE GIVE US THE “OVERWHELMING” EVIDENCE.

Oh, and Hoosier_boy didn’t just post… He sent me the link to this and evidentally it kept me logged in as him when I posted… He sucks.[/quote]

My personal experiences growing up…seeing my brother healed after being prayed for; being spoken to on certain occasions in my life that are difficult to describe here but were profound to me; a personal friends life I saw changed in a heartbeat after he tried everything imagineable but finally surrendered to Christ; a personal close experience with Death twice simultaneously experienced by my dad (both occasions) that I have only heard one other person describe (George Foreman the boxer), he quit boxing and became a preacher at that time.

I’m not a preacher, nor do I consider myself a devout churchgoer or anything like that. I realize the pagan traditions that have been kept with the alterations to fit Christianity (Done by the Roman Emperor who saw the Cross in the sky, I believe…don’t remember his name). I ask the same questions others ask themselves here. I’m college educated. I consider myself open-minded and take seriously the points of view of those in opposition to Christianity. Things like “The Jesus Mysteries” are good points, but they also even have criticism on how they arrive at their conclusions and connections. But even if I agree with the opposition, I can not dismiss my life experiences or explain their happenings away…they are my evidence for me…and I can not disprove them logically. I have but one choice.

Now, if I could just get some heavenly guidance on improving my Squat.

158

WHAT ABOUT DINOSAURS
On what day did GOD create dinosaurs and why did he destroy them? Please enlighten me someone. Death really sucks so what better way to extort people then to promise them an everlasting peaceful afterlife.

159

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
I realize the pagan traditions that have been kept with the alterations to fit Christianity (Done by the Roman Emperor who saw the Cross in the sky, I believe…don’t remember his name).
[/quote]

Constantine.

160

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
WHAT ABOUT DINOSAURS
On what day did GOD create dinosaurs and why did he destroy them? Please enlighten me someone. Death really sucks so what better way to extort people then to promise them an everlasting peaceful afterlife. [/quote]

I think its for the riches from oil for Abrahams lineage via the maid…God promised they would be prosperous, taken care of, or something like that…

I also don’t think God destroyed them…that was an asteroid I believe.