Just want to say I think you have it wrong when it comes to Paul… He did meet Jesus, the reason for his complete conversion…and he practically set the Christian Doctrine, IMO.
Maybe some here can spread some light on how all the apostles died according to historical record, including Paul?
[quote]Miserere wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Well, Josephus mention Jesus “the so-called Christ” when referring to the stoning death of his brother James. Tacitus also mentions Jesus. As far as official records go, we don’t (as far as I know) have that many.
Poached from somebody else’s website:
The only somewhat reliable, secular evidence we have for the life of Jesus comes from two very brief passages in the works of Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian. And Josephus was a prolific writer - he frequently wrote several pages on the trial and execution of individual common thieves, but on Jesus, he is silent except for two paragraphs, one of which is a known interpolation, and the other is highly suspect. Other references to Jesus in secular writings are ambiguous at best, or known to be later interpolations, or both. The earliest references to Jesus in the rabbinical literature come from the second century, even though known historical figures such as John the Baptist merit considerable discussion, even though his impact on Judaism was minimal. There are no references to Jesus in any of the Roman histories during his presumed lifetime. That he should be so thoroughly ignored is unlikely given the impact the gospel writers said he had on the events and politics of the Jewish kingdom.
Expanding on Josephus:
Josephus was a historian who was so very thorough he would write a three page history of the trial and execution of a common thief, and wrote extensively about John the Baptist, but on Jesus, his two small references are seriously doubted by scholars as being genuine. Unfortunately, the writings of Josephus have come down to us only through Christian sources, none earlier than the fourth century, and are known to have been revised by the Christians. There are a number of reasons why the two references in Josephus are doubted: As summarized by Louis Feldman, a promient Josephus scholar, they are, first, use of the Christian reference to Jesus being the Messiah is unlikely to have come from a Jewish historian, especially from one who treated other Messianic aspirants rather harshly; second, commentators writing about Josephus earlier than Eusebius (4th Cent. C.E.) do not cite the passage; third, Origen mentions that Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the messiah.
Jesus would’ve barely been a blip on the radar for the Romans at the time. Believe it or not, they had much better things to do than to worry about every wandering mystic with a cult (there were many).
You’re joking, right? If you accept the story of the Bible, then Jesus was a huge mustard stain on the Roman radar. They would’ve noticed. And according to the Bible, they did.
Paul, we know, was a real person and a Roman citizen. He wrote letters that have been copied and survived to this day.
Just because Paul was probably a real person, doesn’t prove anything about Jesus. Especially since Paul never met Jesus. In Paul’s letters it is apparent that there are whole areas of Christian doctrine he was ignorant on, he never mentions that Jesus worked any miracles and he appparently did not associate the death of Jesus with the trial before Pilate.
We also know that Jews were crucified by the Romans,
Which has no bearing on this subject whatsoever. The Romans crucified anyone, not only Jews. And they got the idea from the Greeks and Egyptians.
and that Jesus’s brother James fought with Paul for control of the church.
I think it was Peter who fought with Paul, but again, this has no bearing on the figure of Jesus, although it is important when studying the origins of the Church.
I don’t think it’s outlandish to suggest that a historical Jesus was likely to have existed.
I disagree somewhat. Maybe a “wandering mystic with a cult” named Jesus did exist, why not? It’s possible. However, Jesus, as he is represented in the Bible, is highly unlikely to have existed. Read my loooong, earlier post for the reasons why I believe this (I believe you arleady did).[/quote]