Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.[/quote]

I hate this argument: sorry, but I believe that anyone who does not have sex with at least 100 women will spend eternitey in a place where they get rammed in the ass by a thousand dicks. On the other hand, if you do achieve the 100 woman quota you will get to live eternity in heaven, where random hot chicks just run around and give you blowjobs all day. There is no heaven for woman because they are only in the equation as a means for man to make it to heaven or not. Now you can belive me or not, but wouldn’t you rather be safe and sleep with at least a 100 women just in case i’m right and your not?

V

62

I just have to throw this one out there…

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen Roberts

and this one…

“Suppose we’ve chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we’re just making him madder and madder.” — Homer

The way I figure it, back in the days, we believed in one god for every phenomenon… i.e. there’s the wind god, the tree god, the water god etc. We believed in these “gods” to make us feel better for the unexplainable.

But as civilization progressed and we were able to start explaining the “unexplainable” the gods started to vanish, there is no more “lightning god” etc.

Could our faith/belief in god just a way to control our insecurities regarding the things we CAN’T explain? We just need a “feel-good” feeling that we get when we think SOMEONE is always watching us?

As for religion pissing people off, I think we run into the problem that those who do believe have the tendency to WANT to convert those who don’t believe into believers (think about the Crusades… missionaries… and now people standing at the corner of the street with posters that tell you are going to hell unless you “believe”, think about the tackily dressed man on Sunday televisions performing “miracles” (I had a good quote on this, but can’t find it… will post it later once I do find it) etc. Do you think a non-believer will sincerely believe in god through the words of some hobo on a street corner?

I personally am waiting for a, whatmachacall it, a sign. I need to see, hear, and feel to truly believe. Someday, if this “god” exists, I hope he speaks to me or someone demonstrates he exists because I’ve been trying for the past decade to find him but to no avail. I’ve talked to casual believers of god, serious believers of god, and even a umm, what do you call it, priest? And the final answer I get from all of them is either “I don’t know” or “the Bible says so…” Bluh.

On that note, I think you all should look up: http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

63

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read.

Kings 1, 7:23 -

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

[/quote]

You do realize that estimates of measurement were pften related to the average length of body parts at that time, right? I honestly don’t see what you take issue with…aside from being picky.

64

[quote]Vegita wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.

I hate this argument: sorry, but I believe that anyone who does not have sex with at least 100 women will spend eternitey in a place where they get rammed in the ass by a thousand dicks. On the other hand, if you do achieve the 100 woman quota you will get to live eternity in heaven, where random hot chicks just run around and give you blowjobs all day. There is no heaven for woman because they are only in the equation as a means for man to make it to heaven or not. Now you can belive me or not, but wouldn’t you rather be safe and sleep with at least a 100 women just in case i’m right and your not?

V[/quote]

It would seem to me to be much more effort to even find 100 women than it would be to simply have faith…but to each his own.

65

[quote]pookie wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe.

That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)

It is possible to live one’s life lawfully and ethically without believing in God. If there is a God and he decides to punish me for being honest in my beliefs well that’s a pretty petty God. I already live a good, ethical, law-abiding life. I give to charities, I take care of my kids, I help my friends and neighbors. I’m faithful to my wife, I work hard, pay my taxes and I keep my word when I give it. It wouldn’t be very hard for me to simply fake it; go to church on sunday and say all the right things at the right places. It’s not like I didn’t learn them as a kid. But I would feel dishonest in doing so. If there really is a God, he’d know that I’m just playing along, right? I rather stay true to what I believe, or don’t believe in this case. It’s not like I’m expecting an afterlife anyway.

I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.[/quote]

Well said, I’d hate to believe in a tyrant who forces us to WORSHIP him. I wager that I am a better “Christian” as an agnostic than a LOT of those self-proclaimed “Christians”.

66

[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:

You pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter, pookie. The way I’ve always rationalized it is that I’m living as ethically as I possibly can. If there was a God, and he would choose to punish me for not worshipping him in spite of living a moral life, while he simultaneously rewards murderers and rapists who repent, then he can suck it as I want nothing to do with him anyway. Call me a blasphemer if you must.

Another thing is that the notion of salvation is grounded on the idea of faith.
[/quote]

Salvation is a gift, and earned by no one. ALL have sinned and come short. If you have ever thought of killing someone, or wished you could, or hated someone enough to kill…then you are a murderer. If you have lusted at someone, then you have sinned. Being moral is actually a Catch 22…its an impossiblity. No one can live morally. Its human nature to be vain, selfish, envious…Our salvation is bought and paid for with the blood of Jesus Christ. It is a gift. All of the prophets were hated and persecuted, as was Jesus, and his message was not a violent one, just a convicting one.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen. There was a man who walked tightrope across the Niagra Falls. He then did it with a will barrow. He then did it with 200 lbs. He then asked someone in the audience if he thought he could walk across with him in the wheelbarrow. The man replied yes. He asked him to get in the wheelbarrow. And he wouldn’t get in because he lacked faith.

When you plant a seed in the ground and water it. You have faith that it will grow into a big tree and produce fruit…and you get to realize that fruit.

Just because you can’t see the wind does not mean it isn’t there.

67

[quote]rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.[/quote]

Would that be true faith? Or rather something similar to contracting an insurance? Can you force yourself to believe? What if you show a maximal effort, but still some doubt remains? The logic behind this just doesn’t seem sound…

68

I’m with Pookie.

69

[quote]Vegita wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.

I hate this argument: sorry, but I believe that anyone who does not have sex with at least 100 women will spend eternitey in a place where they get rammed in the ass by a thousand dicks. On the other hand, if you do achieve the 100 woman quota you will get to live eternity in heaven, where random hot chicks just run around and give you blowjobs all day. There is no heaven for woman because they are only in the equation as a means for man to make it to heaven or not. Now you can belive me or not, but wouldn’t you rather be safe and sleep with at least a 100 women just in case i’m right and your not?

V[/quote]

Does posting on the Ass Worship Thread count to any extent?

70

I believe, but what I believe is private.

But I also believe that the Bible - the OT, really - is mainly the poetry of a people trying to explain their own existence and express their troubles. I also think that reading the Bible critically rather than literally opens up the mysteries and poignancies of the text much more than simply taking it at face value.

I think the problem of translation has to be taken into account. Translation is NEVER perfect. There is always something lost.

I also think that we need to look at exactly WHEN the Bible started to be taken literally. It wasn’t taken literally in the Middle Ages. The meaning of certain passages in the Bible have always been debated.

I suppose I’m more of a Blakean Christian atheist…

71

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Vegita wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe. At least give it some thought all you nonbelievers. Believing does not mean you are a stupid, mindless, automaton. Give it a shot and enter with an open mind and heart.

I hate this argument: sorry, but I believe that anyone who does not have sex with at least 100 women will spend eternitey in a place where they get rammed in the ass by a thousand dicks. On the other hand, if you do achieve the 100 woman quota you will get to live eternity in heaven, where random hot chicks just run around and give you blowjobs all day. There is no heaven for woman because they are only in the equation as a means for man to make it to heaven or not. Now you can belive me or not, but wouldn’t you rather be safe and sleep with at least a 100 women just in case i’m right and your not?

V

It would seem to me to be much more effort to even find 100 women than it would be to simply have faith…but to each his own.[/quote]

Well that is true, but do you judge the validity of a religous doctrine based upon the difficulty of the actions it takes to achieve the premise? In actuality, I do believe that there is a god, and I also don’t beleive I have to have faith to eventually reach what christians refer to as heaven. I don’t think it hurts or helps ones chances, therefore no effort is required, which is better by your statement than the effort it takes to have faith.

V

72

Oh, and the prophecies thing - wouldn’t someone wanting to make Christ seem like the Messiah make Him fit the prophecies? I’m just saying that that’s a big flaw in that idea…

I suppose that’s where faith comes into it all :slight_smile:

73

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
Through non-biblical text Jesus has been verified and this includes his crucifixion on the cross.[/quote]

Please tell us which texts are these, as the lack of historical proof is one of the arguments used by most atheists. The reasoning goes something like this (and I paraphrase):

The Romans had lists of everything. The Romans recorded everything. There were historians who lived in the time of Jesus who wrote plenty of books. If Jesus caused such a social commotion as the New Testament says he did, then his name should really have appeared on some official text somewhere.

As far as I’m aware, it hasn’t.

74

[quote]Miserere wrote:
A bunch of stuff about Jeebus and Dionysus…
[/quote]

Also, check out the play The Bacchae if you’d like to see some of these comparisons close-up.

75

ProfX, if you go down this road, I’m not sure it will work well.

I can have faith in a lot of things, and that energy will be available in your scenario. Why does it matter than I have faith in a certain belief?

What you apparently require within your description is some type of ability to screen based on what topic this faith energy is concentrated on.

A more traditional view of course provides a judge. A parent, if you will, that will either spank you or reward you for your time here. Strangely, as mentioned by one above, it matters not how well or poorly you behave, only that you believe.

How unfortunate for us that we have this little loophole.

76

Oh please shutup.

He didnt ask for a fucking sermon, he just asked if you beleived in one of the following :

1.Cheesecake angels
2.Fairies
3.God
4.Goblins and/or trolls with no hair

I choose the most unlikely scenario to be number -drumm roll- 1

There aint no fucking cheesecake angels. Theyre made of divine white chocolate.

Amir

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read.

Kings 1, 7:23 -

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

You do realize that estimates of measurement were pften related to the average length of body parts at that time, right? I honestly don’t see what you take issue with…aside from being picky.[/quote]

It does not matter what the lenght of a cubit was, as long as the length stayed identical for both distances. You can measure with your dick if you want, as long as it stays flaccid of erect throughout.

You can call it being picky if you want, but pi’s value was already known to a better precision than 3 at that time. For a work supposedly “inspired by God” or even “inerrant”, that lack of precision simply argues against both propositions.

78

[quote]Miserere wrote:
DeepSouth wrote:
Through non-biblical text Jesus has been verified and this includes his crucifixion on the cross.

Please tell us which texts are these, as the lack of historical proof is one of the arguments used by most atheists. The reasoning goes something like this (and I paraphrase):

The Romans had lists of everything. The Romans recorded everything. There were historians who lived in the time of Jesus who wrote plenty of books. If Jesus caused such a social commotion as the New Testament says he did, then his name should really have appeared on some official text somewhere.

As far as I’m aware, it hasn’t.[/quote]

Well, it might have. Those who wish to think it is that Jesus will say it was. But Jesus was a very common name, so there’s no real evidence for that.

I don’t know why people look for physical evidence when the crux of their belief is faith in the absurd (not an attack, as in the Kierkegaardian absurd) anyway.

79

[quote]vroom wrote:
It wouldn’t mean shit at all if you understand the concept that no energy can be destroyed and that in the concept of an “afterlife”, the faith needed to reach the ultimate state of being is being rejected by you.

ProfX, if you go down this road, I’m not sure it will work well.

I can have faith in a lot of things, and that energy will be available in your scenario. Why does it matter than I have faith in a certain belief?[/quote]

It doesn’t unless this is concerning the concept of getting into “heaven”.

[quote]
What you apparently require within your description is some type of ability to screen based on what topic this faith energy is concentrated on.[/quote]

What? I didn’t write any such thing. I wrote that faith is necessary. Why make it more complicated than it really is?

[quote]
A more traditional view of course provides a judge. A parent, if you will, that will either spank you or reward you for your time here. Strangely, as mentioned by one above, it matters not how well or poorly you behave, only that you believe.[/quote]

That’s not entirely true. That thief that died right next to Christ didn’t accept that faith…and then continue to be a thief. However, we are sinners and it is expected that we will sin in this life over and over. If entrance were based only on those who never sin, no one would get in.

[quote]
How unfortunate for us that we have this little loophole.[/quote]

Unfortunate? For whom? It can’t be any simpler. The bible discusses faith that equals a mustard seed as far as amount. That indicates it isn’t even necessary to have COMPLETE and TOTAL faith, just faith enough to believe…and that alone seems too hard for some. Why? No one is making this hard or complicated…but you.

80

Let me preface this by answering the original question, no i do not believe in a judeo-christian god or jesus. the reason for this does not stem from any sort of lack of faith or trusting the tenets of evolution. it stems, rather, from my distrust of the bible. the first issue that i have with the bible is that establishes a power structure and tells people that revolution and being a “traitor” are sins of the highest order and are punishable by eternity in the deepest layer of hell, where lucifer himself was sent. this is established both in the story about the war in heaven and in the first commandment (not worshipping anything more than god).

because many of the people who administer religion are so closely tied to politics (are and always have been), and many power figures claim to be attached in some way or another to god, the message is “if you go against this representative of god you have taken something as higher than god and therefore broken the first commandment, and here’s what happens to those, who in their pride, break the first commandment.”

does this mean that the founding fathers of our country are now in the depths of hell with lucifer himself since they went against the king of england who was supposed to be an instrument of god? or does this mean that they were the righteous and that the soldiers who fought and died for their country (though being commanded by a “tyrant”, i.e. the british soldiers) who were otherwise good men and christians are now punished in the depths of hell for their actions?

my other main issue with the bible is that we here in America read from a bible that is written in our language, not the one that it was originally written in. this will, undoubtedly lead to many important messages and impressions being taken out of context. one example of how things can be lost in translation (though not necessarily relevan to this discussion) is the commandment that in english reads “thou shalt not kill”. great, good rule. however, in the original hebrew text, the direct translation would be “thou shalt not murder”. BIIIIIG difference. if things like this happened throughout the translation of the bible, which they undoubtedly did, then the words that so many are talking as absolute and divine truth are skewed and not in line with what god originally wanted his children to know about him and his nature.

Well thats all i really have the energy to type right now, but why does it seem like everyone on this sight is either christian or some form of atheis/agnostic? where are the opinions from the jews, muslims, mormons, etc.? i think that by adding the opinions of different religious groups, this discussion will really open up (though that may not be what we want/need on a body building / power lifting site).

TJ