Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]teenlifter16 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I think many things written in the bible are written with a poorer understanding of the observer in comparison to where we are “mentally” today. That is my honest understanding of it. To me, it sounds almost like genetic research. “Taking a rib” could be related to our concept of surgery or even cloning. There are many concepts in the bible that I relate to in that way. If someone from a few thousand years ago saw a television today, how would they describe it?

Interesting, so what is your belief on Jesus performing miricales? Could it also be possibe to say that again perhaps we are not “mentally” advanced to understand it.

[/quote]

Slightly different. When Genesis happened, nobody was around to witness it other than God himself. When Jesus was performing miricles, the people who wrote about it were first hand witnesses.

42

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The church is filled with people who simply go through the motions. You are no more “guilty” of avoiding the concept of God as a reality than they are. [/quote]

Why go through the motions at all? Instead of wasting time there, why not donate some time to a worthwhile cause?

Also, why concentrate on the fact of my non-belief? What about the rest of what I wrote? If I live what most would consider a “good” life, but simply don’t “pretend” (in my case, I’d be pretending) to do it because of Jesus or God, doesn’t that count for anything?

43

No religious beliefs here. To me, there is no difference between religious beliefs and believing you left your keys on the kitchen table; you’re not sure, but it could be.

I don’t have the time or the energy to invest in building such a house of cards merely out of comfort, or a need for a soothing balm regardless of the religion.

If you want to believe, fine, believe whatever you want but do me one favor; exlude me from your beliefsystem, that’s all.

44

[quote]pookie wrote:
WORKING wrote:
I am a believer the evidence is overwhelming. Though I do not belive we all go to heaven or that there is some fire pit where we get tormented for eternity.

I’m curious about this position. If you believe, shouldn’t you believe the whole thing? Are you sure you’re allowed to pick and choose the parts you like? If religion is like a chinese buffet, then we’re both religious, I just take less from the buffet than most do. [/quote]

If we look at the original purpose of god it was to have dominion over the earth and live forever in paradise. Imho
that has never changed. gods purpose is still for us to live forever in paradise
and the concept that we burn in hell for eternity is man made no were in the bible does it say we will be tormented like that it does say the we will be cast in a lake of fire to destruction but not everlasting torment.

45

I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.

great line, pookie.

and would any religious discussion be complete without at least one reference to the film dogma?

46

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.[/quote]

Amen.

47

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The church is filled with people who simply go through the motions. You are no more “guilty” of avoiding the concept of God as a reality than they are.

Why go through the motions at all? Instead of wasting time there, why not donate some time to a worthwhile cause? [/quote]

Why are you asking me? I wouldn’t waste my time like that.

It would count for you in relation to those around you in this life which is a good thing. It wouldn’t mean shit at all if you understand the concept that no energy can be destroyed and that in the concept of an “afterlife”, the faith needed to reach the ultimate state of being is being rejected by you.

48

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think many things written in the bible are written with a poorer understanding of the observer in comparison to where we are “mentally” today. That is my honest understanding of it. To me, it sounds almost like genetic research. “Taking a rib” could be related to our concept of surgery or even cloning. There are many concepts in the bible that I relate to in that way. If someone from a few thousand years ago saw a television today, how would they describe it?

Yes, it is unrealist to expect a text written thousands of years ago to reflect today’s reality. But the Bible gets other stuff wrong that can’t be discounted on the basis of time.

For example, the value for pi is given as 3 (from 30/10). If there really was Divine Inspiration, a couple of decimals more would’ve been extremely impressive. Or a simple verse mentioning the “specialness” of this number, even without further details, when they had no way of knowing this back then, would’ve been very convincing evidence of such Divine Inspiration. Being inspired by God to write it down as 3, well… not so much.[/quote]

Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read.

49

I’m a believer. I know what i know, i have lived my life and saw what i saw, experienced what i experienced and am a very strong believer. That should be enough and is enough for me.

Peace and God Bless.

50

I don’t believe in gods and I don’t follow any religion.

I would like to point out something that most people miss in these kind of discussions:

Being christian does not implies that you understand genesis literally or that you are against evolution. I’ll give you two examples.

My family, and most of my friends, are Catholic, and they all understand evolution. Catholics do not see a problem with evolution, it is not against their christian beliefs.

I was educated in a Catholic school, and they never taught creationism. We learned evolution from an accomplished biologist. Even the priests would say, “Genesis is an important metaphor, with deep and complex theological meaning, but the origin of species is explained by evolution.”

51

I also find it funny that our faith requires nothing but a belief. You have to believe tis all, but for many this is too much effort and destabilises their mentall pathways causing total lockup. Funny how a simple concept of having everything to gain and nothing to loose is still too much for some people. But they take comfort in not having to believe, they take comfort in feeling superior and more intelligent. But in reality who’s stronger? The believer that considers possibilities beyond his understanding? Or the rigid mind that believes ONLY what it sees?

52

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I thought this was an interesting comment:

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.
[/quote]
Is it possible that there are deceitful atheists and honest believers?

It sounds like you’ve got your mind made up as to the practical results of a certain faith commitment.

jpb

53

[quote]pookie wrote:
That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)
[/quote]

Note that the wager is not sufficient. Pascal recognized that attrition alone would not ensure salvation, and that God Himself had to grant true faith. Faith, or at least true faith as received from the Holy Spirit, is a gift of salvation that is not within human power to grant or take, for Pascal.

As such, Pascal urged the non-believer to engage in a life of earnest searching and prayer, in the hope that God would be merciful and eventually grant faith to the seeker. Of course, there’s no guarantee.

54

and did those feet in ancient times trod on america’s pastuers of
green? and did that anthropocentric god wane with their thoughts and
beliefs all unseen? i don’t think so, he’s up there with the others
laying low, vying with those who you’ve traded your life to to bless
your soul, and have they told you how to think, cleansed your mind of
sepsis and automony? or have you escaped from scrutiny, and regaled
yourself with depravity? now we all see, “religion is just synthetic
frippery, unnecessary in our expanding global cultural efficiency” and
don’t you fear this impasse we have built to our future? ever so near,
and oh so austere

There is: No God, No Devil, No Religion, No Control. Just Instantaneous All Consuming Energy and Mass.

55

[quote]pookie wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe.

That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)

It is possible to live one’s life lawfully and ethically without believing in God. If there is a God and he decides to punish me for being honest in my beliefs well that’s a pretty petty God. I already live a good, ethical, law-abiding life. I give to charities, I take care of my kids, I help my friends and neighbors. I’m faithful to my wife, I work hard, pay my taxes and I keep my word when I give it. It wouldn’t be very hard for me to simply fake it; go to church on sunday and say all the right things at the right places. It’s not like I didn’t learn them as a kid. But I would feel dishonest in doing so. If there really is a God, he’d know that I’m just playing along, right? I rather stay true to what I believe, or don’t believe in this case. It’s not like I’m expecting an afterlife anyway.

I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.[/quote]

You pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter, pookie. The way I’ve always rationalized it is that I’m living as ethically as I possibly can. If there was a God, and he would choose to punish me for not worshipping him in spite of living a moral life, while he simultaneously rewards murderers and rapists who repent, then he can suck it as I want nothing to do with him anyway. Call me a blasphemer if you must.

Another thing is that the notion of salvation is grounded on the idea of faith. Faith is essentially belief in the absence of evidence (which is why I often wonder what motivates some Judeo-Christians to argue that evidence exists for the veracity of the bible). But if that’s the case, then what separates one proofless notion from the next? Why God and the bible instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his Noodly Appendage? It’s satire, but that point is salient.

As to the reason why there’s so much hate: people generalize, that’s all. I see Falwell on TV blaming 9/11 on gays and video games and it’s hard not to remember that stupidity when I hear someone else talking about salvation through Jesus, etc. And it works the opposite way: some self-righteous nerd condescends the religious, and it’s hard not to lump all atheists into that group; especially when the topic at hand is one that can really hit a nerve, as the idea of life after death is to most.

56

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read. [/quote]

Kings 1, 7:23 -

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

57

[quote]Gregus wrote:
I also find it funny that our faith requires nothing but a belief. You have to believe tis all, but for many this is too much effort and destabilises their mentall pathways causing total lockup. Funny how a simple concept of having everything to gain and nothing to loose is still too much for some people. But they take comfort in not having to believe, they take comfort in feeling superior and more intelligent. But in reality who’s stronger? The believer that considers possibilities beyond his understanding? Or the rigid mind that believes ONLY what it sees?[/quote]

Like I said previously, it has nothing to do with belief being easy. I’m just not being honest if I say I believe when I don’t.

It has nothing to do with intelligence or feelings of superiority; a lot of very smart people believe, just as a lot of very smart people don’t. I’d say that belief/non-belief runs the whole range of the IQ chart.

58

[quote]jpb wrote:
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I thought this was an interesting comment:

pookie wrote:
I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.

Is it possible that there are deceitful atheists and honest believers?
[/quote]

Well of course there are honest believers. I was speaking for myself.

And there are also deceitful atheists, I’m sure.

59

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Thats a cool idea about Christianity being taken from the Greek/Roman thing. Got any sources?[/quote]

It goes beyond that. Just as the Romans admired the Greeks and incorporated much of their culture into their own, the Greeks had first admired the Egyptian empire, and absorbed many of its elements. Amongst them, the Mysteries, a series of myths and ceremonies that were only revealed to the initiated, but which later became widespread amongst the ancient world:

At the heart of the Mysteries were myths concerning a dying and resurrecting godman, who was known by many different names. In Egypt he was Osiris, in Greece Dionysus, in Asia Minor Attis, in Syria Adonis, in Italy Bacchus, in Persia Mithras. Fundamentally all these godmen are the same mythical being.

From The Jesus Mysteries, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, published 1999.

These facts (it’s not a theory this time, folks) were known in antiquity. Celsus, the 2nd century philosopher, and one of the first critics of Christianity, wrote On the True Doctrine, where he accuses the Christians of appropriating foreign myths to create a religion. One of the criticisms I find most interesting–because it remains true to this day–is the following:

Some [Christians] do no even want to give or to receive a reason for what they believe, and use such expressions as “do not ask questions; just believe,” and “Your faith will save you.” Others quote the apostle Paul. “The wisdom in the world is evil and foolishness a good thing.”

What Celsus also notes, as do modern scholars, are the striking similarities between many of the ancient religions/myths, most of which which predate Christianity. As early on as the 3rd century BCE, the god-man which the Christians would come to call Jesus was referred to by the name Osiris-Dionysus (his Egyptian and Greek names, respectively).

Here are some of the similarities between Osiris-Dionysus and Jesus:

  • Jesus is the saviour of mankind, God made man, the Son of God equal with the Father; so is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is born of a mortal virgin who after her death ascends to heaven and is honoured as a divine being; so is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is born in a cave on 25 December or 6 January, as is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • The birth of Jesus is prophesied by a star; so is the birth of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is born in Bethlehem, which was shaded by a grove sacred to Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is visited by the Magi, who are followers of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • The Magi bring Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh, which a sixth-century BCE Pagan tells us is the way to worship God.

  • Jesus is baptized, a ritual practised for centuries in the Mysteries.

  • The holy man who baptizes Jesus with water has the same name as a Pagan god of water and is born on the summer solstice celebrated as a Pagan water festival.

  • Jesus offers his followers elemental baptisms of water, air and fire, as did the Pagan Mysteries.

  • Jesus is portrayed as a quiet man with long hair and a beard; so is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus turns water into wine at a marriage on the same day that Osiris-Dionysus was previously believed to have turned water into wine at a marriage.

  • Jesus heals the sick, exorcises demons, provides miraculous meals, helps fishermen make miraculous catches of fish and calms the water for his disciples; all of these marvels had previously been performed by Pagan sages.

  • Like the sages of the Mysteries, Jesus is a wandering wonder-worker who is not honoured in his home town.

  • Jesus is accused of licentious behaviour, as were the followers of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is not at first recognized as a divinity by his disciples, but then is transfigured before them in att his gIory; the same is true of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is surrounded by 12 disciples; so is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds wave branches, as does Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is a just man unjustly accused of heresy and bringing a new religion, as is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus attacks hypocrites, stands up to tyranny and willingly goes to his death predicting he will rise again in three days, as do Pagan sages.

  • Jesus is betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, a motif found in the story of Socrates.

  • Jesus is equated with bread and wine, as is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus’ disciples symbolically eat bread and drink wine to commune with him, as do the followers of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus is hung on a tree or crucified, as is Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus dies as a sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world; so does Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus’ corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.

  • After his death Jesus descends to hell, then on the third day resurrects before his disciples and ascends into heaven, where he is enthroned by God and waits to reappear at the end of time as a divine judge, as does Osiris-Dionysus.

  • Jesus was said to have died and resurrected on exactly the same dates that the death and resurrection of Osiris-Dionysus were celebrated.

  • Jesus’ empty tomb is visited by three women followers; Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty cave.

  • Through sharing in his passion Jesus offers his disciples the chance to be born again, as does Osiris-Dionysus.

60

There are hundreds of prophecies throughout the old testament which Jesus fulfilled. The odds of everyone being fulfilled are a mathematical impossibility. Many historic copies of the old testament verifying these. Through non-biblical text Jesus has been verified and this includes his crucifixion on the cross.

Much of the New Testament is letters from Paul. Just do some research on him…his education level, persecution of Christians, etc. He became Christianity’s biggest proponent. Think about that.

Spreading Christianity is people wanting others to experience the same gifts they have received.

I have heard Gods voice…and it is unmistakeable. I have experienced the fruits of becoming a Christian firsthand, and they are unmistakeable. I know of others experience, those who tried everything and searched everything, and their miraculously changed lives and behavior that has lasted from Psychotic behavior, violence, drug addiction, and lives of the worst kind to an instantaneous release…and they converse with God everyday…

If you SEEK the truth, you will find it. Sometimes you have to sort through the BullShit to get there, unfortunately.